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Federation vs. US principles

To be frank, the drug problem of today has less to do with people's intelligence, and more to do with a general brakedown of morality.
That's the same old refrain, and frankly I'm sick of hearing it.

Using the excerpt that a poster quoted in another thread:

trekkiedane said:
I see no hope for the future of our people if they are dependent on frivolous youth of today, for certainly all youth are reckless beyond words... When I was young, we were taught to be discreet and respectful of elders, but the present youth are exceedingly wise [disrespectful] and impatient of restraint
Hesiod (8th century BC)
linky
Tell me again that morals are crumbling recently.

Straw man argument. The cuture war goes on and on. It was fought 1,000 years ago. It will continue to be fought 1,000 years from now. The "good" side has had its share of victories--and then, a bunch of "intellectuals" speak of "Progressing" beyond those "rigid and inflexible" morals.

This is what is meant when Social Conservatives refer to "a breakdown in morality". We don't mean that it hasn't happened before--simply that the problems of society are due to a breakdown. To say otherwise is absurd and most illogical indeed. :vulcan:
 
Star Trek represents a certain thread of left-wing American political thought, the liberal interventionist. Gene Roddenberry apparently adopted this philosophy and used Star Trek as a platform for expressing his political ideas. (Barak Obama, who is a big Trekkie, is a liberal interventionist - and it's tempting but probably silly to think that Star Trek played a significant role in the formation of his ideas. Still, his worldview about war in Afghanistan strikes me as extremely Trekkian...)

The liberal interventionist sees American principles - liberal democracy, rule of law, the purpose of government being to safeguard individual liberties, secularism, multiculturalism - as superior to all other forms of government. So it's okay to use force to defend and spread these ideas as long as you have a reasonable excuse for doing so (out and out imperialism is a no-no), or you can just wait patiently for the silly furriners/aliens to realize that their way of doing things is wrong. Sooner or later, they'll change. And if they don't, don't fret, because liberal interventionists believe in building up a big-ass military as an arsenal of democracy.

It's no accident that Starfleet has a dual role: military, to defend the Federation; and exploratory, to suss out interesting new potential Federation members. It's a sort of benign imperialism that guarantees continual conflict with neighbors, but Starfleet blithely continues along with no apparent awareness of this little fact. ;)

Roddenberry also used his imagination to add some interesting what-if aspects to this mix: atheism, a somewhat communistic economic system (this only really came about in TNG); and the paternalistic Prime Directive which treated sub-light-speed societies as child-worlds that needed to be segregated from all outside influences until they could evolve to maturity in a natural way. The Prime Directive fits nicely in with the liberal interventionist assumption about the superiority and inevitable triumph of their One True Correct political/economic system.
 
Temis--Obama practically quoted the Prime Directive when refusing to intervene in Iran when the uprising occurred. You SURE there was no Trek influence???
 
Temis--Obama practically quoted the Prime Directive when refusing to intervene in Iran when the uprising occurred. You SURE there was no Trek influence???

Okay, I wouldn't at all be surprised...:rommie:

or do most just fail to make the connection between say US involvement in the middle east and latin america etc. and 'non inteference in the internal affairs of other planets' ?
The more appropriate parallel would be Starfleet butting heads with non-liberal-democratic neighbors - Klingons, Rommies, Cardies, the Dominion, et al. Notice how Starfleet is always fighting somebody - true liberal interventionists.

There's no real parallel on Earth today to sub-light planets. It would have to be some tribe in the Amazon that has never before been contacted by the outside world. Everyone else is the Klingons. ;) (In particular, I think Iran may be the Tzenkethi, but don't quote me on that.)
 
(Barak Obama, who is a big Trekkie, is a liberal interventionist - and it's tempting but probably silly to think that Star Trek played a significant role in the formation of his ideas. Still, his worldview about war in Afghanistan strikes me as extremely Trekkian...)
And he does have rather large ears . . . .
 
It's funny:

Even in The Public Sector, there are Trekkers on both sides.

Left--Obama, of course.

Right--Mitt Romney. I don't need to re-count the report of another fan who attended a Romney rally. (But I will, of course. ;)) The governor learned the guy was a fan...and gave him a perfect Vulcan salute.

Romney later made a reference to "data"...and then, smiling, said, "and no...I don't mean Lt. Comm. Data".

He got the rank right. How 'bout that.


And of course...there was that incident when he gave that rapper on the plane the nerve pinch....


BTW...as many of you know, Ol' Barry's only the second President to see a Trek-film in the White House theater. The first was The Gipper himself. He wrote:

After dinner we ran Star Trek III. It wasn't too good.

Too bad it wasn't TWOK. :(

And of course...Reagan had a tour of the TNG set. The Bird had a good interation with him, I'd say. :cool:
 
Too bad it wasn't TWOK. :(

Got that right.

The only thing The Search for Spock has over The Wrath of Khan is Robin Curtis, who did a much better job as Saavik, IMO.

And of course...Reagan had a tour of the TNG set. The Bird had a good interation with him, I'd say. :cool:
Really, I did not know that. Interesting.

It's almost as cool as the fact that Reagan lived in the skyscraper from Die Hard after he left the White House. :)
 
Because when it's illegal you're not being warned when you're buying it that it's dangerous; you pay your money, you get your product, do what you will with it.

How much faith do you have in your government? My government is corrupt, incompetent, dishonest, hypocritical and populist. I'm supposed to trust that they know what's good for me? My government's main interest is looking out for itself, and in that regard, drugs are illlegal because the majority of people want them to be illegal. If the majority of people thought that balloons were somehow a threat to society, my government would start making moves to ban them.
So wait, why would anyone trust those warnings issued by the government? :vulcan:

Are what are the heroin users then, idiots?
No, but anyone that makes the logical leap from "legal" to "good for me" sure as hell is.
Nah, I'm thinking of the logical leap from "legal" to "cops won't harass me if I they find me with it".

Anyway, the most interesting thing about this discussion is that it shows how people whose positions in the 'Political Compass' are very close can have very different views on some issues. :)

Meet Scott:

scottbakularidingapony.png


Scott is an actor that has appeared in shows such as Quantum Leap, Star Trek Enterprise, and Babylon 5. He has achieved acclaim for his work, winning a Golden Globe and achieving 4 Emmy nominations. He has been married twice, he has two children with his first wife and two with his second. Scott is a nice guy, he has a house with a ranch, and numerous friends... some of them ponies. Scott is doing okay.

One day, his government decides to legalise heroin under strict controls. Scott says "I'm a happy guy and I enjoy my life, but now that I can buy heroin legally, I think I'll go and buy some and shoot up in my living room". Later that same year, Scott died of a heroin overdose. The end.


Don't worry, this story isn't real, there is no real Scott, and that picture of him was a fake. You can tell that the story is fake BECAUSE NOBODY IS THAT STUPID.
You're always looking for an excuse to post that picture again, aren't you? :guffaw::rofl:
 
. . . Nah, I'm thinking of the logical leap from “legal” to “cops won't harass me if I they find me with it”.
Speaking for myself, “cops won't harass me if I they find me with it” would never be a motive for me to try heroin. I'll never use it because I know it's nasty shit and can really mess you up. I've see The Man with the Golden Arm.

Now, hallucinogens like LSD, mescaline and peyote, on the other hand -- well, I'd like to try at least one of those drugs sometime before I die, just to see what the effects are like -- although it's not high on my priority list (no pun intended).
 
Now, hallucinogens like LSD, mescaline and peyote, on the other hand -- well, I'd like to try at least one of those drugs sometime before I die, just to see what the effects are like -- although it's not high on my priority list (no pun intended).

That's how it usually starts. Add a couple of problems in your life and you're there.
 
So wait, why would anyone trust those warnings issued by the government? :vulcan:
Because it would be a system based upon honesty and would involve the government standing up and saying to the people "You're wrong, and we're not going to classify relatively harmless drugs in the same category as heroin any more just because you non-experts are scared of them. Cannabis, ecstasy and LSD are not that bad for you, alcohol and tobacco are reasonably bad for you, and when we say that heroin and cocaine are very bad for you, we actually mean it this time."

Nah, I'm thinking of the logical leap from "legal" to "cops won't harass me if I they find me with it".
But in Portugal, heroin uptake is down since they decriminalised possession. Go figure.

I understand where you're coming from, but the statistics just don't bear it out. You're attempting to apply common sense to the debate, but the problem is that common sense is wrong half the time. Common sense says that the Sun goes around the Earth, but when someone finally set out to study it, they found that it was the other way around. You can either stick to your common sense position, or you can just accept that the statistics don't support your point of view.

You're always looking for an excuse to post that picture again, aren't you? :guffaw::rofl:
Of course, that is an awesome picture. It is one of the great cultural achievements of humankind, right up there with the Pyramids in Giza, or the Ghostbusters theme-song.

scotpens said:
Now, hallucinogens like LSD, mescaline and peyote, on the other hand -- well, I'd like to try at least one of those drugs sometime before I die, just to see what the effects are like -- although it's not high on my priority list (no pun intended).
I'm curious about what LSD is like, but I don't think I'd try it, I've read stories from a couple of people that tried it and they say it was unsettling.

Craig Ferguson:
On one occasion he recalls screaming in terror during an LSD trip in Glasgow’s Kelvingrove Park where he believed he was being assailed by fluorescent “killer ducks”. The experience persuaded him to switch to alcohol, to which he soon became addicted.

Charlie Brooker:
I tried other things, only to discover they weren't for me. LSD, for instance, definitely isn't my bag. Call me traditional, but if I glance at a wall and before my very eyes it suddenly starts smearing and sliding around like oil on water, my initial reaction is not to be amused or amazed, but alarmed about the structural integrity of the building. My most benign lysergic experience consisted of an hour-long stroll around an incredibly verdant, sun-drenched meadow, watching the names of famous sportsmen appear before me in gigantic 3D letters carved from fiery gold. Eventually someone passed me a cup of tea and the spell was broken: there I was, sitting in a student halls of residence, watching late-night golf on BBC2 on a tiny black-and-white TV. From that point on it was like being trapped in a David Lynch film that lasted for eight hours and was set in Streatham. Once again: Brrr. No thanks.

On the one hand, it does sound sort of cool, but on the other... I don't feel that I need to try it, I think my mind may be messed up enough already. :lol:

That's how it usually starts. Add a couple of problems in your life and you're there.
Alcohol and tobacco are more dangerous and addictive than the likes of LSD, just look at this graph. Has drinking a beer made you want to take up heroin, or cocaine? Has it turned you into an alcoholic?
 
You're getting the Portugal strategy upside down. It's not about legalization, it's about treatment and prevention.

Under the Portuguese plan,penalties for people caught dealing and trafficking drugs are unchanged; dealers are still jailed and subjected to fines depending on the crime. But people caught using or possessing small amounts—defined as the amount needed for 10 days of personal use—are brought before what's known as a "Dissuasion Commission," an administrative body created by the 2001 law.

It's not legalized. You can't buy drugs in shops or in special stores. Production and sale gets you into prison. But addicted people are getting help. Decriminalization of drug users, if you will.


That's what I mentioned a couple of pages before.
 
Actually, I have nothing upside down, but your opinion of what I'm saying appears to be upside down. ;) You can go back and check the thread and you will see that I never said that Portugal legalised drugs, I always used the word "decriminalised" (with an 's' ;)), and most of the time I mentioned that they had decriminalised possession, not the sale of drugs.

But my point still stands. DevilEyes' claim was that if people didn't have to worry about the legal consequences, they'd be more likely to try heroin. In Portugal, the consequences are minimal, you're sent to therapy and you're not charged with a crime, yet heroin uptake has fallen since the law was introduced.

My reasoning behind legalising the sale of drugs is to cut down on gang crime. Once again, there is a precedent for that; when the US repealed the prohibition of alcohol, the criminal elements which flourished during the prohibition era lost money and power. Criminal gangs in the US were never more powerful than they were in the prohibition era. Right now, the major source of income for these gangs is drug sales, that's how these gangs are able to maintain, and even grow, their power. If we take that source of income away from them, gang crime should fall.
 
Here's my $0.02 on the drug War:

Singapore has some of the toughest anti-drug laws in the free world.

Coincidently...it also has one of the least severe drug problems in the world.


Just saying.


Too bad it wasn't TWOK. :(

Got that right.

The only thing The Search for Spock has over The Wrath of Khan is Robin Curtis, who did a much better job as Saavik, IMO.

And of course...Reagan had a tour of the TNG set. The Bird had a good interation with him, I'd say. :cool:
Really, I did not know that. Interesting.

It's almost as cool as the fact that Reagan lived in the skyscraper from Die Hard after he left the White House. :)

I believe Memory Alpha has the tale. Let's see....

Ah! Here it is:

Reagan (then former president) visited the Paramount Pictures studios in 1991 during the shooting of TNG: "Redemption". Although unfamiliar with most of Star Trek, he did enjoy meeting Patrick Stewert, Brent Spiner and the many Klingon extras hired for the episode. Later when asked about the Klingons, he said "I like them. They remind me of Congress."

During the tour, an ailing Gene Roddenberry dropped his cane. The former president graciously knelt and retrieved it for him. Reagan later quipped, "I felt as if I had been knighted."

So...while The Gipper wasn't quite a Trekkie, he seemed to be a enough of a fan to have TSFS shown in the While House...and enough to speak of The Bird as a king. ;)
 
Here's my $0.02 on the drug War:

Singapore has some of the toughest anti-drug laws in the free world.

Coincidently...it also has one of the least severe drug problems in the world.


Just saying.
The United States also has one of the toughest drug policies in the world, and it has harsher penalties for the possession and sale of drugs than most of the Europe. In spite of this, the US has the highest rate of cannabis and cocaine use in the world. Yup, more than the Netherlands, where buying pot is practically legal.
 
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