Federation losing the Dominion War

[Temis the Vorta]

I wanted the Feds to lose the war, largely as an excuse not to have to give up DS9 after seven seasons.

I thought it would be fun if VOY got in the action. I was watching that series too, and honestly didn't think they were doing much interesting anyway.

Have VOY return to the AQ at the end of S5, which coincides with DS9's finale, in which the Feds lose the war. It would be a rocky homecoming to say the least. I'd have the story run across both series' season finales and involve the deaths of many major characters.

I'd want to keep, at minimum: Kira, Bashir, Garak, Nog, Worf, Paris, B'elanna, Tuvok and EMH. That would provide a good mix of character types and knock out the obvious leaders (to force the other characters to step up and do things outside their usual areas). Plus I'd hang onto the Dominion team: Weyoun, Damar, Female Founder. Dukat might need to be killed off, but maybe not.

The last two seasons of VOY and the fifth series would deal with the fallout of this disaster - it goes without saying that that group of people I named would never give up the fight. I might bring in a few TNG characters as well, although I'm not sure they fit the scenario too comfortably. Data, maybe. New characters would also be introduced for series five.

When I suggested this during DS9's S6 on another BBS, many Niners objected to the notion of integrating VOY into the action and effectively have them "win the war" that DS9 couldn't win. But the way I see it, it would be a joint effort across three series - four, if you count the new one. As long as the DS9 writers and producers were in charge, the results should be good.

Imagine Ron Moore in charge of the new series! What could have been...

If the Federation lost the Dominion War, Paramount wouldnt be able to produce anymore TNG films,

And that would have been such a tragedy!

But I get your point: this plan is far too radical for the people who were in charge of Star Trek at the time. Imagine the consternation among VOY viewers who didn't watch DS9, seeing their series morph into something radically different. I happen to be strongly in favor of radical changes when things are mired in predictability and mediocrity.

Voyager returning home to a conquered Earth with Weyoun answering the hail... then what?... a "To Be Continued?"

That would have gone a long ways towards redeeming VOY in my eyes.

Good lord. What is with this endless obsession with the Federation falling?

It's just one of many obsessions around here. Having the Federation face a truly major disaster and overcome it is something we haven't yet seen from Star Trek. And it doesn't contradict Star Trek at all; I certainly wouldn't want my cast of characters to curl up in a fetal position and give up!

 

[Cyke101]

Voyager returning home to a conquered Earth with Weyoun answering the hail... then what?... a "To Be Continued?"

That would have gone a long ways towards redeeming VOY in my eyes.

Oh, that would be the BESTEST cliffhanger EVER. And to think, the "failure" (quotes to denote in terms of story) of DS9 would lead to the "failure" of Voyager. That would be so incredibly heart-wrenching for Janeway and Co, but could possibly show an even greater resolve than ever, setting the stage for the rest of the season.

Of course, then that might lead to Dominion-overload, and I think some people were experiencing that (I haven't, though. hah!).

 

[What's his face]

Dominion overload is just a myth. There's no such thing.

 

[tom]

In other words, they should have brought the scenario that Sisko articulated in "Statistical Probabilities" full-circle and have it actually happen.

I agree...DS9 should have ended with a total defeat of the Federation. The re-conquering could have been shown in the next movie, instead of giving us the terrible "Nemesis".

Or it could have been the next spin off series...you know, the generation after the next, instead of the rather weak "Enterprise" series.

Or combine it...make a movie about how the new alliance/rebellion is formed and have the series play it out till the end. It would have been the first time that a movie kick started a series in the Star Trek universe and not the other way round.

 

[Jono]

It doesn't contradict the ending of DS9, it just states that by 2379 Worf was no longer an ambassador.

So instead of an outright contradiction, they throw away a perfectly good character development in favor of more of the same. Well, that's much better.

The point is it isn't a contradiction.

 

[HRHTheKING]

The war was never between the Federation and the Dominion.


It was a small part of Sisko's journey to discover himself.

The war was just a backdrop. The real story was about Sisko, the Prophets, and his role as Emissary.

The Federation didn't win. The Dominion didn't win.

The Emissary won.

 

[Lindley]

It doesn't contradict the ending of DS9, it just states that by 2379 Worf was no longer an ambassador.

So instead of an outright contradiction, they throw away a perfectly good character development in favor of more of the same. Well, that's much better.

The point is it isn't a contradiction.

In spirit it is. It's fairly clear that the intention was to dismiss that character development as if it had never happened.

 

[Bingo]

Losing the war didn't necessarily have to mean the destruction of the Federation. The Federation 'not winning' could certainly be a sort of loss, particularly if the Dominion included some important Federation territory. Perhaps the Federation would have had to destroy the wormhole to keep from a total loss.
A total loss would have been a stupid thing to do. Starfleet 'fighting on' would have been an assinine plot- if a unified fleet with the full resources of the Federation, Klingons and Romulans couldn't beat the Dominion, a Rebel Alliance could never do it, unless Luke Skywalker showed up and killed all the Founders in a light saber duel.

 

[Red Ranger]

In other words, they should have brought the scenario that Sisko articulated in "Statistical Probabilities" full-circle and have it actually happen.

I agree...DS9 should have ended with a total defeat of the Federation. The re-conquering could have been shown in the next movie, instead of giving us the terrible "Nemesis".

Or it could have been the next spin off series...you know, the generation after the next, instead of the rather weak "Enterprise" series.

Or combine it...make a movie about how the new alliance/rebellion is formed and have the series play it out till the end. It would have been the first time that a movie kick started a series in the Star Trek universe and not the other way round.

Tom:

I like your last idea. Now, of course, a ST movie then show about a "rebel alliance" would lead to all kinds of unfavorable comparisons with Star Wars. Showing humanity progressing, making new friends and alliles, instead of falling back into chaos is rather the core of ST.

Red Ranger

 

[Jono]

So instead of an outright contradiction, they throw away a perfectly good character development in favor of more of the same. Well, that's much better.

The point is it isn't a contradiction.

In spirit it is. It's fairly clear that the intention was to dismiss that character development as if it had never happened.

Not sure if this is a myth but didn't the script at one point have Worf answering a question about his time as an ambassador with something about how he wasn't very diplomatic or something?

The movie was never going to have much Worf in it, other then to have him firing weapons so I can understand why they wouldn't bother talking about what he was doing in the previous 4 years. It wouldn't add anything to the advancement of the plot and could just be confusing for people not familiar with what he did on DS9. Not saying I wouldn't have liked a clear explanation.

 

[Navaros]

Dominion overload is just a myth. There's no such thing.

So true. Well-said!

As for what did the TNG films contradict: the Worf thing as already mentioned, in addition to the Romulan ale thing, in addition to the magnitude of the Dominion War and the importance of the events in DS9 as a series.

The Worf thing can theoretically be "explained away", as can most anything, but not without comprising the integrity and validity of DS9's story.

The other two things can also attempt to be explained away with increasingly illogical reasoning and explanations that make even less sense, but again, not without comprising the integrity and validity of DS9's story. IMO the ability to concoct crazy theories to "explain away" contradictions does not really solve the contradictions are or make them not be contradictions.

Adding a throwaway line about the Dominion in one of the TNG movies to pay a small obligatory lip service whilst the Enterprise was actually doing nothing to help in the Dominion War (as if the Dominion War didn't even exist, or at the very least was an unimportant footnote...) also is not sufficient to shield the TNG films from contradicting DS9 IMO.

I would also argue that they ignored, and thus, implicitly contradicted, the existence of the Jem'Hadar seeing as the 'shocking' part' of the race featured in NEM was supposed to be 'we are a race bred for war'; to which Picard should have said: "You are merely a poor imitation of a race bred for war that we just beat, the Jem'Hadar."

 

[DWF]

Adding a throwaway line about the Dominion in one of the TNG movies to pay a small obligatory lip service whilst the Enterprise was actually doing nothing to help in the Dominion War (as if the Dominion War didn't even exist, or at the very least was an unimportant footnote...) also is not sufficient to shield the TNG films from contradicting DS9 IMO.

There's no proof that the Enterprise did nothing during the war, there were Dominion War stories in a combined series of TNG/DS9 novels about the war.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Star_Trek_novels#The_Dominion_War_.281998.29

 

[Jack Bauer]

If the Federation had lost on DS9 then on Voyager they would've found a way for the Federation to defeat the Dominion forever by the time they started developing the next TNG film. It would've rendered the whole thing moot.

 

[Damask]

There's no proof that the Enterprise did nothing during the war, there were Dominion War stories in a combined series of TNG/DS9 novels about the war.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Star_Trek_novels#The_Dominion_War_.281998.29

Okay they did nothing important during the war. The Enterprise ranks below Quark in the who did more stakes. And Morn actually.

The Worf as not an ambassador doesn't bother me too much. Nemesis was hardly a huge role for the character. It's just reinforces my belief that DS9 wasn't the "static" Trek show that people seem to think it was.

 

[DWF]

There's no proof that the Enterprise did nothing during the war, there were Dominion War stories in a combined series of TNG/DS9 novels about the war.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Star_Trek_novels#The_Dominion_War_.281998.29

Okay they did nothing important during the war.

Where's the proof that they did nothing during the war?

 

[Cyke101]

There's no proof that the Enterprise did nothing during the war, there were Dominion War stories in a combined series of TNG/DS9 novels about the war.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Star_Trek_novels#The_Dominion_War_.281998.29

Okay they did nothing important during the war.

Where's the proof that they did nothing during the war?

Yeah, I'd believe that the Enterprise was actually doing quite a bit during the war. The absence of evidence does not mean the evidence of absence. I think dialogue from Insurrection hints that the Enterprise saw at least some action in the war, too: after a list of quaint complaints, Picard asks, "Remember when we used to be explorers?"

 

[Darth_Pazuzu]

For another really good Dominion War book involving the crew of Picard's Enterprise, I'd recommend The Battle Of Betazed by Charlotte Douglas and Susan Kearney. And yes, it does involve Deanna Troi on a mission to liberate her homeworld from Dominion rule! (You'd probably have to hunt down a used copy on Amazon, but I'd say it's worth it!