federation economy.. plausible / beliveable?

[nexuzz]

Hi everyone, i've been lurking for quite some time now in theese forums, and i figured that perhaps it was time for me to contribute to the debate.

theres one question that has been on my mind for a long time (well a few actually) but this one is really bothering me.. is the economy of the federation plausible / beliveable?

through out the years, we've learned that the federation gave up currency based economy a long time ago. this is hinted in many episodes across the series and directly said to be so on a number of occasions.

this might be easy to belive since we for the most part only see the bright side of this: star fleet officers working to better themselves and humanity..

but in all society's SOMEBODY has to do the crappy jobs... and in my mind it is hard to comprehend that all theese ppl will work for free since theres a long way from scrubbing warp conduits to boldy go, where no one has gone before.

i doubt that anyone in our present day could be motivated to work for absolutely nothing. even if we had replicators providing ppl with everything they needed, what would motivate them to go to work everyday?

I know what motivates starfleet officers. heck, its a pretty cool job! but i just cant figure out what motivates the guy proccesing garbage / woking nightshift in a federation deterium mine / cleanig bird poop of the windows and so on. i realize that they might have machinery for some of theese task, but there will always be less desireble jobs in any given comunity.

in our comunity, we solve this simply by paying the workers, giving them a reason to actually show up for work everyday, they need the money to pay the bills so they need to work.. i know i do.

but in a society where you dont have any bills, everything is free, you have replicators for food and clothes etc i simply cant imagine anyone willingly showing up for work everyday.. i mean.. whats in it for them? they dont get to meet new life and new civilisations. they dont get to escort a VIP vulcan ambassador to a secret meeting. they dont get to sit in ten forward enjoying a synthale watching the stars at warp 8 etc.

so.. what motivates them?

 

[Flavius]

You want to use proper spelling. Boring, I know. But it helps.

 

[C.E. Evans]

I've always kind of thought that the idea of the Federation having an economy with "no money" was perhaps taken too literally or perhaps was used too carelessly by the writers and producers.

I prefer to think that that they just don't use money in a physical sense. No coins, no dollar bills, no bars of gold-pressed latinum. I think they use a system of electronic credit myself that's perhaps only good within the Federation itself...

 

[Deks]

The so called 'crappy' jobs probably don't even exist as regular ones because of technology and automation.
If anyone would be placed to perform a `crappy` assignment it would probably be temporary so they can earn prestige or work experience in a certain field that would enable them to do what they desire later on weather in a similar or different field.
It is done in the real world all the time, and it was done in Trek on numerous occasions.

When you have a government that basically takes care of your material needs and you are essentially set to live equally just as everyone else, a person would be more free/encouraged to focus on what they want to do in life.

Problem with people is that they see 24th century Trek humans from contemporary perspective and way of life (which is faulty given the fact humanity in Trek went through extreme changes after they had WW3 and basically had 90 years according to Enterprise to get rid of money based society and change their way of life ... which was done in the first 50 years, the remaining 40 they did not convince the Vulcans they are ready to venture out into deep space).

What Trek established is possible/plausible.
I don't buy the premise that humans would not change AT ALL in 300 years in real life for example.
Trek humans were not perfect.
They simply managed to move away from the things many contemporary humans assign value to (such as money) and had a greater deal of emotional control (a type of behavior numerous humans display even today, but it's not a norm).

Basically, it became a norm for everyone to be like that in the Trek future ... whereas today it's different.
Plus let's take into consideration events such as WW3 and discovery of new technologies + Warp drive that played part in societies transformation.

 

[Green Shirt]

Cartmere said:
You want to use proper spelling. Boring, I know. But it helps.

So does a civil tounge. I'm as much a proponent of accurate spelling as the next person, but just to stop by to drop a criticism bomb and offer nothing else to the discussion seems shortsighted.

 

[nexuzz]

Cartmere said:
You want to use proper spelling. Boring, I know. But it helps.

I appoligize for my bad spelling & grammar. i'm from Denmark so english is'nt my native language. i try though

 

[MarianLH]

Would the industrial revolution be plausible to Cardinal Richlieu? Would a corporation be plausible to William Marshal? Would an economy based on cash money rather than land be plausible to Charles the Great?

I'm willing to suspend disbelief.


Marian

 

[Green Shirt]

nexuzz said:

Cartmere said:
You want to use proper spelling. Boring, I know. But it helps.

I appoligize for my bad spelling & grammar. i'm from Denmark so english is'nt my native language. i try though

No need to apologize, we are all doing our best here.

 

[Balthier the Great]

I don't really know how the Fed economy works. I've always thought of it in terms of maybe a Socialist type of system, something like Sweden or Norway. They take care of everyone's basic needs, but the extras cost -- extra. I don't think they have a shortage of window washers in those countries and from talking to those I met online from england they don't have much trouble getting those kinds of jobs done either.

Besides which, there are always machines, which generally work well. Why send a human to clean windows when you could get a window cleaning roomba?

 

[nexuzz]

well. I wouldnt even call it a job. job is a word associated with a place you go, to earn your salary. I doubt that most people are doing the thing they always dreamed of doing. i'm not saying they dont enjoy their work. only that its not the thing they want most in the world.

then imagine IF everybody could be what they always wanted..
it seems to me, that if someone came every month and paid all my bills, then i would be doing something completely different than what i am doing today. i'm a printer, i make pharmaceutical packaging material. but we still need thoose. so who would make them then?

if that was to happen in our society, my bet would be that we would be having 4 billion ppl who all where rockstars, artist, news reporters pilots etc. and general production and maintnance and so on would come to a complete standstill. unless ofcourse you actually enjoy pouring cement onto building foundations all day.

atleast grandpa sisko had the satisfaction of ppl enjoying his food so that might be he's motivation. but someone had to mine the metal for the forks. someone had to deliver the meat. someone had to grow the vegetables. someone had to cut down the trees for his furniture and so on.

 

[General_Phoenix]

Yeah I believe that the crappy jobs in the future will be handled by automation or something similar. Trash pick ups handled by unmanned vehicles or something. The crappy jobs in Trek are probably programming the vehicles and computers to DO the crappy jobs. Boy, I wish I sure tried harder in high school and got into Starfleet Academy, instead I program garbage haulers for a living.

 

[nexuzz]

General_Phoenix said:
Boy, I wish I sure tried harder in high school and got into Starfleet Academy, instead I program garbage haulers for a living.

well.. the federation supply you with all you need.. so whats your motivation for programming garbage haulers if you dont find it enjoyable? perhaps you are trying to move up through the ranks and maybe one day have your own garbage hauler facility so you could earn big money.. oh.. wait...

 

[FordSVT]

I think robotics and automation would take care of a lot of menial labour. We've heard of entire mining and manufacturing operations that don't have s single living soul amongst the operations.

I think the only reason their economy and society is even remotely plausible is because of two related things.

One is that when the entire solar system and beyond is open to you for raw minerals and elements, a lot of competition for those things disappears and their value as a quantity is severely diminished.

The other is replicators. I don't think you could overstate the impact on society that being able to press a button and having virtually anything you want would bring.

We aren't talking about 21st Century terms here, we're talking about a planet where there is little disease, no hunger, everyone has shelter and access to education and people live to an average age of over 100 years. There hasn't been a major planetary war in hundreds of years. They've met aliens and have a different perspective on themselves and humanity. You really can't say that because it's unrealistic the way our own society has progressed and is likely to progress in the next couple hundred years, their entire foundation is different than anything we've ever had.

People still compete with one another and with themselves, but they do so for respect and prestige and personal enhancement, not necessarily raw money and stuff. You do the entry level job with the expectation that you'll advance and have more access to more respect and more perks a job might bring like a bigger apartment or house or access to transportation or credits you could use off world, etc. There's still a motivation to get ahead, it's just different.

And of course you always have the option of leaving the Federation or moving to another planet to pursue different dreams.

 

[Brolan]

In a word, it's not believable, not by a long shot. Money used as a resource solves many problems.

For instance, everyone wants to have a home by the beach, by the lake, etc. How do we decide who gets one in the Federation economy? Some kind of lottery? So Joe Blow gets a house on the beach but the President of Federation doesn't?

It would also seem that a bunch of people having their needs met without too much (if any) work would tend to get in trouble. Drinking and drug abuse would be rampant.

The only way this works is if humans are truly evolved past greed, sloth, gluttony, etc. I just don't see it happening.

 

[Michael_Kroh]

We are currently in the Age of Consumption, and are quite spoiled as far as earning a living is concerned. Try killing and cleaning or growing your own food, or try living for a year without electricity. Pushing a broom, if that's your only skill, can feel pretty reliable after years of going hungry.

The Post-Atomic Horror is a quasi-nomadic era of global anarchy; Where all that matters are clean food and water, clothing, shelter, good health, love, and a safe community. The young people of this era know very little of our Consumer Age or its' vices, aside from the decaying remains lying around them. Artifact consumer items are common, and some are valuable. (blue jeans, radios, computers, etc.) Natural talents and job trades are discovered early in life. Every person who walks the Earth in this new Dark Age has an employable skill of some kind. Those who don't live on meager charities or starve.

Later, during the Age of Recovery, people who become citizens of the new United Nations of Terra have thousands of job openings to browse through, spanning many nations. Borders are lowered, people migrate freely looking for jobs and security for thier families.

Credit is digital, and easily adjusted and converted over the decades and centuries. The Credit system is the most efficient means of kick-starting the Recovery, as Credit can be exchanged for Gold (and vice versa) on the various Frontiers, easing the transition. Eventually, Credit will be traded with off-world markets...

 

[Therin of Andor]

C.E. Evans said:
I've always kind of thought that the idea of the Federation having an economy with "no money" was perhaps taken too literally or perhaps was used too carelessly by the writers and producers.

The cashless society predicted by TOS has already arrived! Kirk still mentioned "credits" in TOS, so it wasn't as if noone earned a salary. There was also an episode where he told Scotty he'd "earned his pay".

ST IV and TNG had to project even further with money references. The Writers' Bible for TNG, IIRC, mentions that with the invention of the replicator, and it's use throughout the UFP and known space, there was no need to "buy" anything. Replicators could create almost everything - except a few things like gold (hence the Ferengi greed for it).

 

[bismarck_1892]

I'm sure all the unwanted work in the Trek universe is automated. Anyway, I agree with the posters who simply state that the economy of the future is as difficult for us to imagine as today's economy may have been to our predecessors.

 

[Balthier the Great]

Brolan said:
In a word, it's not believable, not by a long shot. Money used as a resource solves many problems.

For instance, everyone wants to have a home by the beach, by the lake, etc. How do we decide who gets one in the Federation economy? Some kind of lottery? So Joe Blow gets a house on the beach but the President of Federation doesn't?

It would also seem that a bunch of people having their needs met without too much (if any) work would tend to get in trouble. Drinking and drug abuse would be rampant.

The only way this works is if humans are truly evolved past greed, sloth, gluttony, etc. I just don't see it happening.

Well, yeah, but remember that there are thousands of star systems in the Fed area of space. It's not strictly speaking infinate, but with say 5,000 earthlike planets and each one having roughly the same coastline of Earth it's not all that hard to make beachfront property available.

Besides which, there are artificial beaches. Japanese Artificial Beach

 

[FordSVT]

Therin of Andor said:

C.E. Evans said:
I've always kind of thought that the idea of the Federation having an economy with "no money" was perhaps taken too literally or perhaps was used too carelessly by the writers and producers.

The cashless society predicted by TOS has already arrived! Kirk still mentioned "credits" in TOS, so it wasn't as if noone earned a salary. There was also an episode where he told Scotty he'd "earned his pay".

ST IV and TNG had to project even further with money references. The Writers' Bible for TNG, IIRC, mentions that with the invention of the replicator, and it's use throughout the UFP and known space, there was no need to "buy" anything. Replicators could create almost everything - except a few things like gold (hence the Ferengi greed for it).

Gold is completely replicable, that's why it encases liquefied "latinum" which is not replicable.

But you're correct, there have been shown to be several materials and complex chemicals that are apparently not replicable. Maybe not impossible if you spent tremendous time and energy and expense in doing so, but then you'd probably be better off using traditional methods to acquire them.

This is also the answer to the common question "why don't they simply replicate whole star ships?" There would be certain components that would be too complicated to replicate, and replicating something of that size and complexity would undoubtedly cost an absolutely enormous amount of energy and material. It's probably cheaper to build them the "old-fashioned" way. Of course, certain small components and pieces of the ship might be produced by replicators.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

The crappy jobs can all be done by robots. Replicator technology means that nobody has to earn money to get the stuff they want because everything is free. Spaceships that can fly faster than light imply that energy is unlimited. So yeah, given Trek technology, I think the economics would actually work - Roddeberry's hippie commie paradise is a reality!

Just as long as the robots don't rebel.