Federation/Cardassian war

[Timo]

To be fair, Maxwell destroyed a single warship

Well, after it had received the Free Shot Card and done its worst against an unshielded Phoenix. And it wasn't as much a "fight" as it was a "weapons release": a single volley of torpedoes did in the warship.

And later on, we see in DS9 that Cardassian Weapon Batteries (not Dominion ones) can shred top of the line Fed ships.

But admittedly only after the alliance with the Dominion, possibly including very significant weapons upgrades. Although such potent fixed weaponry being standard for all powers would go a long way in explaining why interstellar wars aren't over in two hours.

Anyways, it's not much of a problem to have the Cardies just appear like this. TOS did the same thing with the Klingons, there was no mention of them before "Errand of Mercy".

There was no mention of there having been a war ongoing with the Klingons in "Errand of Mercy" - not ever, and certainly not during the previous episodes of the show. That is the key difference wrt the Cardassian case, I guess.

With Romulans, there was mention of a war but also explication that the war had been over for a full century, making it even more distinct from the Cardassian case.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Anwar]

The Dominion soldiers and Weyoun were surprised at the Weapons Batteries used, implying they weren't based on Dominion tech at all but 100% Cardassian. Having potent defense tech would explain their resilience even with inferior vessels.

With the Klingons, it was implied (and outright stated, IIRC) that there had been years of hostility between them and the Feds and bloodshed, but still no mention of them before "Errand of Mercy".

 

[Lance]

^ The point still stands though, that it wasn't war with the Klingons. The point of the episode was that both sides were hostile, perhaps that war was inevitable, but that the Organians hoped to prevent that.

With the Cardies there was apparently a declaration of formal hostilities at some point, which is what makes it war.

 

[Timo]

In "Tribunal", O'Brien does his best to suggest that the Cardassian nastiness was just a minor sideshow in a minor sideshow: "Remember when we fought together in the border wars?" is the thing that connects him to (the agent pretending to be) Raymond Boone.

The name "border wars" already sort of suggests that there were multiple opponents at multiple borders, none important enough to warrant naming the war after them...

timo Saloniemi

 

[Kevman7987]

In "Tribunal", O'Brien does his best to suggest that the Cardassian nastiness was just a minor sideshow in a minor sideshow: "Remember when we fought together in the border wars?" is the thing that connects him to (the agent pretending to be) Raymond Boone.

The name "border wars" already sort of suggests that there were multiple opponents at multiple borders, none important enough to warrant naming the war after them...

Timo Saloniemi

So the "border wars" were essentially just that; small wars fought on the Federation's borders with opponents like the Cardassians, Tzenkethi, Breen, Kzinti, etc?

 

[Timo]

Might well be.

Or then the term is well-known across the Federation as shorthand for the series of epic conflicts with a powerful enemy who doesn't even need to be named for all its infamy (that is, the dreaded Cardassian Union, the only Federation foe of worth in the 24th century). But personally I favor the former option, all things considered...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Marc]

The Tholians were also mentioned as former adversaries in TNG.

Tholians were introduced with TOS episode "The Tholian Web" and were very paranoid species.

In the 80 years between the time of the Tholian Web and the Next Gen era, it's quite possible the Federation wound up in conflict with the Tholians.

 

[Dukhat]

^I know who the Tholians were. But thanks for the clarification

 

[Anwar]

^ The point still stands though, that it wasn't war with the Klingons. The point of the episode was that both sides were hostile, perhaps that war was inevitable, but that the Organians hoped to prevent that.

With the Cardies there was apparently a declaration of formal hostilities at some point, which is what makes it war.

It was stated in the episode that the Klingons had invaded and killed Federation citizens before, indicated some level of war. Just not total war.

 

[trekshark]

It won't be the last time Star Trek retcons a war late into the continuity even though it makes no sense. In DS9, there was an alien race called the Tzenkethi which was at war with the Federation more than once. An alien race we never see, and never hear about again.

Yeah. Whatever.

Seems silly that any single species can sustain a war against the Federation which is made up of dozens of alien races and hundreds of star systems. It only ever made sense with the Dominion since they were comparable to the Federation in size and resources.

With the Cardassians, the events from The Wounded seem to indicate that the Federation is far superior to the Cardassians with weapons. The Enterprise easily disabled the attacking ship, and the Phoenix (a science vessel) easily wiped out a warship, even with its shields compromised. Why did the Federation need to capitulate? In real life, the Cardassians would have been forced to surrender.

^Same deal with the Talarians. They were also at war with the Federation at some unspecified date (although when actually seen, they appear to be quite inferior to Starfleet in terms of tech and weapons...)

The Tholians were also mentioned as former adversaries in TNG.

Now if, say, the Talarians, and the Tzenkethi, and the Cardassians, and the Tholians, and the (fill in the blank) banded together to war against the Federation, it would make more sense. But that's never been implied.

Maybe when the federation gets attacked by relatively weak opponents that aren't a huge threat they stick to a defensive war and defend their borders but don't actively push into an annex the enemy's territory even if they could totally annihilate them if they wanted to. Then after the enemy has lost enough ships in pointless attacks they agree to end the fighting. That way the federation can maintain its image of being peaceful utopia with no desire to expand by force but still has enough muscle to keep the aggressive species at bay

 

[Anwar]

Well, that's sort of what TOS did. Apparently in their Romulan War they just fought in space (so there'd be no way to ever see a Romulan) and the war ended when they'd destroyed enough Romulan ships and got them to agree to a Treaty and the Neutral Zone.

 

[Timo]

Fighting wars till total victory is a relatively modern concept, and basically restricted to a couple of recent superpowers with a pressing need to make an impression. Typically, the goals of a war are attained long before the opponent is destroyed, and pursuing the fight till unconditional surrender or utter destruction will actually lead to failing to attain the goals.

I don't see the Federation having any reason to fight an enemy to unconditional surrender or destruction. Yes, some enemies can bounce back, but the Federation is always growing and improving and will not be in a worse position in the rematch. And many enemies later become allies or subordinates.

Timo Saloniemi