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Federation attitude toward genetic engineering

It should be interesting to note that the Genetic Supermen of the Eugenics Wars are all considered to be from Eastern countries. Ruling through Asia, Africa, and it seems holding out in Australia. This somehow rings true with the Q presented post-atomic horror in what may have been China. If the last few devastating wars on Earth were fought in Asia, it make sense that the Westerners were the ones to do the rebuilding. If the large population deaths sited by Spock and Riker were also from said regions, it might also, roundabout, explain why their are less Asians represented among Star Trek's humans in general. Also why the penal colony is in New Zealand. And why Starfleet and the other humans seem more European/American in cultural background, even among those born in Africa or Asia.
 
From "Space Seed":

Scotty: "...they're mixed types. Western, mid-European, Latin, Oriental."
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In stage reality, we saw this:

http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1x22hd/spaceseedhd516.jpg

No "Orientals" there. One guy with a slightly brownish tone to his skin, perhaps a hint of thickness to lips. Basically the same as Khan:

http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1x22hd/spaceseedhd520.jpg

Nazis would have been happy to enroll the whole lot in an elite all-Aryan SS unit. Except for the ladies, of course.

Of course, Khan is claimed to look like a Sikh by the dishonest McGivers; later dialogue does not further associate him with the East in any fashion. His posse is of mainly "Western" phenotype, but should we see significance in him only deigning to speak with the one male who shares his skin color? Perhaps he rescued random allies and even opponents of his when things started going south (east?) in 1996, despite originally ruling over a realm organized on racial lines? But there is no line of dialogue associating Khan or the other Augments with racism, except in the sense of the dividing line between "them" and "us".

I guess Earth as a whole would feel more inclined to go along with this odd ban if Augments were everywhere, and could be any one of us. Or then "West" demonized "East" for the latter's role in the sordid business - but we don't even really know who defeated Khan in the end, and who got dibs on demonizing.

This somehow rings true with the Q presented post-atomic horror in what may have been China.
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Hmh? The courtroom was all-Western. The regalia were British if anything. The judge and his trusted/doped soldiers were Western. The rabble was Western. The only Eastern aspect to it were the two court monkeys playing the gong, quite possibly people crushed under the heel of the West and forced to perform in this humiliating display, in downtown London for all we know.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Ithekro said:
It should be interesting to note that the Genetic Supermen of the Eugenics Wars are all considered to be from Eastern countries. Ruling through Asia, Africa, and it seems holding out in Australia. This somehow rings true with the Q presented post-atomic horror in what may have been China. If the last few devastating wars on Earth were fought in Asia, it make sense that the Westerners were the ones to do the rebuilding. If the large population deaths sited by Spock and Riker were also from said regions, it might also, roundabout, explain why their are less Asians represented among Star Trek's humans in general. Also why the penal colony is in New Zealand. And why Starfleet and the other humans seem more European/American in cultural background, even among those born in Africa or Asia.
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Or Star Trek canon suffers from 'White Saviour' syndrome....
 
Ithekro said:
It should be interesting to note that the Genetic Supermen of the Eugenics Wars are all considered to be from Eastern countries. Ruling through Asia, Africa, and it seems holding out in Australia. This somehow rings true with the Q presented post-atomic horror in what may have been China. If the last few devastating wars on Earth were fought in Asia, it make sense that the Westerners were the ones to do the rebuilding. If the large population deaths sited by Spock and Riker were also from said regions, it might also, roundabout, explain why their are less Asians represented among Star Trek's humans in general. Also why the penal colony is in New Zealand. And why Starfleet and the other humans seem more European/American in cultural background, even among those born in Africa or Asia.
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Indeed, the 'Eastern Coalition' spoken of in ST:FC (and shown in "Encounter at Farpoint") was originally supposed to be China. All references to it, in the film, were rewritten at the last minute to make it the ECON.
 
Since ECON makes no other appearances, it's impossible to say anything definite. All we really know is that Picard automatically assumed that Lily Sloane would think of the Eastern Coalition as her default enemies in the 2060s.

Is the ECON the same as the Eastern Coalition? No doubt, because Sloane did automatically associate the bombardment of Montana with the ECON. Is the ECON the enemy of Montana from WWIII already? No doubt, because Cochrane says "After all these years?" in response to the bombardment and Sloane's accusation regarding it. Was the ECON the one and only significant enemy of the United States in WWIII? This is getting deeper into speculation country - for all we know, ECON was the Axis of Evil from Boston to Washington, bombarding the poor Midwestern Confederation for its all too sympathetic attitude towards those evil Pacific Unionites..

The novels of course have their own ideas, associating the ECON directly with the Eugenics Wars and with the mysterious Li Quan mentioned twice in TOS as a famous Earth leader or evildoer.

Timo Saloniemi
 
I personally think genetically enhancing people is a bad idea. For one thing, no matter how much we may know about our genetic structure, we still can't be sure of the results when we start tampering with our genome.

We can end up with more Khans or Maliks. We can end up with more Jack Packs. We can end up with children that are deadly to EVERYONE simply because their immunity aggressively attacks a disease... from afar.

We have no business playing at being gods for one basic reason... humans are still in the child phase. We haven't grown up yet, and likely won't for a long time. Until humanity is actually mature, we don't have the right to start using genetic enhancement as the next shiny new toy.
 
^ Folks had the same attitude to IVF aka test tube babies but almost 40 years later millions of couples have the chance to be biological parents that were forever infertile.
 
But IVF has a better chance of resulting in a lighter version of "Brave New World" rather than the darker version of "Gattica" that genetic engineering could result in. We do not need to add a genetic class system to our already screwed up economic class system. The Federation has the right idea; fix birth defects & genetic disorders, but nothing more.
 
Dunno about mature. Nature is immature as all hell, and is doing just fine, constantly manipulating its genes.

Screwing with what humans are is about the most innocent thing humans could engage in anyway, as regards tampering with nature. Cultivating corn or breeding chickens is much more devastating and unpredictable in its effects, say, as the history of the world so far stands witness.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Mr. Laser Beam said:
The alternative, of course, would have the "inheritors of the Earth" be the genetically engineered elite class. That doesn't sound like a world I'd want to live in. A world where genetic engineering is required in order to have any standing or rights in society. A world in which those with enhancements rule over those who don't, and ruthlessly put the "normals" in their place. (Have you ever seen Gattaca? ;) )

To rephrase: Such a world would be one where... "resistance is futile". :borg:
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If genetic engineering goes like other elite products it will start elite then gradually become cheap enough to be universal, or near enough. It may become a requirement a lot like GATICA a lot like how to live and work in certain places a person has to have a car, but there are also places where few people drive and instead use public transportation.

A perfect example of uncommon becoming common are cell phones and smart phones, they started as a business tool because it was too expensive for the average person. The Internet is another, especially thanks to smart phones putting in the hands of more people, where as it started as a higher education and military curiosity. Cars started off as luxury toys. Television. Flying. Aluminum used to be worth more than its weight in gold until bauxite could be processed electrically. Linoleum floors used to be considered such a luxury that the wealthy would cover their hardwood floors with the stuff.

People can live without those things and in some places or jobs they cannot.
 
Voth commando1 said:
The memory of Singh and the augments I figure left long lasting culture scars.
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Which is a bit weird, because according to our TOS heroes, Khan Singh was one of the nicest rulers Earth had ever experienced. That is, they called him "the best of the tyrants", which may sound like faint praise - but more specifically attributed him with "no massacres" and "no wars until he was attacked", which is way better than, say, Queen Victoria or Ronald Reagan did.

If our heroes, who clearly represent the "winning side" of the 1990s events, feel that way about Singh himself, why do they feel differently about the Augments in general? Sounds natural enough - Singh had enemies, and many of those supposedly were Augments themselves, in "dozens of petty dictatorships". Having one nice ruler would not be worth the price, not for most. But why would everybody but Kirk, Scotty and (out of all people) McCoy be negative about the Augments?

Timo Saloniemi
 
Here is a thought: what if there are degrees if augmentation, relative to US in the early 21st century? The human beings depicted in 'Trek seem to be healthier, smarter and well adjusted in their respective timelines, than we are to OUR timeline. Perhaps, humanity did get augmented just enough to survive the horrors of the 21st century and interstellar travel, but only enough to prevent superhumans.

BTW, would Captain America be treated like an Augment, and be barred from service?
 
I'm willing to squint and say that Genetic modification is forbidden for earth humans because reasons. But that other human civilizations Mars, Venus, Luna, Alpha Centauri, etc. don't have such restrictions. I also like the TMP Novelization that points out that there are different types of Humans and that the less intelligent ones are chosen to serve in Starfleet. So perhaps our Heros, for the most part, are earth humans that have not undergone genetic modification. Yet they could be serving alongside humans who have undergone genetic procedures. Maybe there are non-earth humans serving on Picard's Enterprise who also served on Kirk's Enterprise becasue they were modified to have longer lifespans.
 
dswynne1 said:
H
BTW, would Captain America be treated like an Augment, and be barred from service?
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No they would rename him Captain Federation or Captain North American Alliance or Captain Sol or Captain Terran. And he would work for Hydra... er Section 31
 
I get the reasons why-they don't want parents genetically engineering their kids so they can compete.

We don't want the federation involving into the Khanate of Earth(a myriad universe novella).

It's a fundamental premise of the Trekverse and to me makes plenty of sense.
 
For Bashir's example, Genetic engineering for the purpose of improving the subject, for him higher intellect etc. isi llegal, but GE for curing disease or birth defect is quite okay. Many times Dr Crusher was giving genetic cures. And for Archers time, being so closer in time to the Euginics wars, maybe they were like, No, no GE what so ever, but given time that position relaxed to just include GE for the purpose of improving humanity. But mostly its a plot device, and if this week, GE being bad will push the story further.. they will.
 
I do get the impression that WW3 was centred in Asia. Though obviously Montana was affected as well.

Personally I think the Eugenics Wars had a long lasting cultural effect-the scars and bad memories of Khan's rule(and the other augments) had a greatly traumatic effect on the earth's population. Hence the attitude towards genetic engineering being so hostile and unforgiving.

I think it's something the Federation will grow out of-if not for a more tolerant attitude but because to compete-eventually technology and society will become so advanced Genetic engineering will be an adaptation the federation will be forced to make. The two options aren't mutually exclusive.
 
Timo said:
Indeed, the idea of genetic engineering being a horrible abomination per se has never been a Star Trek concept. "Dr Bashir, I Presume" specifically dealt with the fact that genetic engineering had resulted in the Augments of the 1990s, leaving a centuries-long trauma about people wantonly improving themselves. But the UFP government clearly readily engages in genetic engineering (and not merely for the same reason cops study narcotics), and many of the therapies utilized or suggested by Starfleet doctors are genetic in nature (although supposedly of types not carrying to the next generation as such).

It's just a specific take on an alternate reality, is all. The Trek folks chose to fear and abhor improved humans. We here on Earth chose to fear and abhor the killing of the invalid for the sake of future greatness. Those choices were not dictated by scientific arguments, and indeed science should have little say on such issues - right and wrong are majority decisions, not expert judgement calls.

As for alien worlds, Trek doesn't seem to have any. Which is understandable: there was humanoid intellect there four billion years ago, and they would have taken care not to leave any alienness floating around when they could create perfect Class M uniformity in its place.

Timo Saloniemi
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The Federation fear of genetic enginerring seems to be similar to the ban on computer tecnology from the Dune trilogy by Frank Herbert.
 
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