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Fathom?

Fathom?

  • I glimpse it's meaning.

    Votes: 9 75.0%
  • It nullify me.

    Votes: 1 8.3%
  • Wibble.

    Votes: 2 16.7%

  • Total voters
    12
I've actually started thinking about a future project.

If or when I become a rich man, I will buy some land in some rather remote place in Canada or the US where I will start a community where the Vori language will be spoken, read, learned, developed and cultivated. :techman:

Why?
 
hooks;11333656 The implication being that what they look like matters in relation to what kind of species they might be. That was clearly part of the writers intentions as far as influencing the audience is concerned. Seems to me said:
What you seem to be saying, in part anyway, is that a Trek audience this late in the franchise's development would be surprised or taken aback by the seeming intent of the episode writer's primary plot device.

Weren't there instances in Trek's past, relative to this point in time, that species whose appearance was at variance to this degree with the humanoid model were characterized as not being malicious, but rather as open. cooperative, and even friendly? In which case, it would seem that the conceit that Nemesis employed shouldn't be nearly as likely to be perceived by viewers as exceptional or as much of a plot twist at all? If one is playing with an audience's expectations, it would seem to be incumbent to have a good handle on what those expectations are or how they may have evolved.
 
But why would Chakotay's UT not change the language is the point. "Did you glimpse him?" should be changed to "did you see him?" And "Fathom?" should be translated to "do you understand?" UT just conveniently loses the ability to clean the language up (despite presumably cleaning it up enough to make it comprehensible to Chakotay).

It could be that there are additional meanings to the Vori word for "Glimpse" that just aren't communicated by the word "See" as a translation.
 
I've actually started thinking about a future project.

If or when I become a rich man, I will buy some land in some rather remote place in Canada or the US where I will start a community where the Vori language will be spoken, read, learned, developed and cultivated. :techman:

Why?

Why not?

It would be a great cultural and linguistic experiment!
 
Weren't there instances in Trek's past, relative to this point in time, that species whose appearance was at variance to this degree with the humanoid model were characterized as not being malicious, but rather as open. cooperative, and even friendly? In which case, it would seem that the conceit that Nemesis employed shouldn't be nearly as likely to be perceived by viewers as exceptional or as much of a plot twist at all? If one is playing with an audience's expectations, it would seem to be incumbent to have a good handle on what those expectations are or how they may have evolved.

Culturally, that expectation is demonstrably still with us though. George Clooney is the good guy; John Malkovich is the bad guy; the princess is pretty, the witch is ugly. These can be subverted as many times as you like (and often are, these days) but the general black & white view is still a mainstream trope that is regularly utilised (especially when you've got a limited amount of time to tell the story). Even in genres that try to break with convention, you'll still see it employed.

In the case of Nemesis, it's not an integral part of the final reveal but it's clearly there as part of an aggregate. Our expectations are met then subverted. The war crimes, the little girl, the old man, the Kradin beast, the innocent use of language - they all play into that.
 
Your using John Malkovich as a nominative example of the ugly archetype is interesting, if only in passing. Without consulting a filmography, I would assume that the full body of his work would indicate that the sizable majority of his roles have been of an obvious villain, or at least a character with clearly ambiguous motivations.

Although obviously my own aesthetic judgement, I don't find Malkovich ugly at all, but merely perhaps somewhat odd looking in his main features. I would say that he has utilized his physiognomy at times to accentuate some overt, extreme traits of certain characters, I think more to emphasize eccentricity than evil. But, overall I suspect that he simply finds the type of roles that have predominated in his career to be more stimulating and challenging. I would suggest that his association with them in the minds of the general audience is due to the superior quality of his acting chops, intuitive feel for a character's behavior and ability to incorporate expert physical movement in his repertoire rather than a fundamental, if unconscious perception of his appearance.
 
Your using John Malkovich as a nominative example of the ugly archetype is interesting, if only in passing. Without consulting a filmography, I would assume that the full body of his work would indicate that the sizable majority of his roles have been of an obvious villain, or at least a character with clearly ambiguous motivations.

Although obviously my own aesthetic judgement, I don't find Malkovich ugly at all, but merely perhaps somewhat odd looking in his main features. I would say that he has utilized his physiognomy at times to accentuate some overt, extreme traits of certain characters, I think more to emphasize eccentricity than evil. But, overall I suspect that he simply finds the type of roles that have predominated in his career to be more stimulating and challenging. I would suggest that his association with them in the minds of the general audience is due to the superior quality of his acting chops, intuitive feel for a character's behavior and ability to incorporate expert physical movement in his repertoire rather than a fundamental, if unconscious perception of his appearance.

Slightly missing the point.

Good looks being conflated with goodness and ugliness being conflated with wickedness are well established in the western psyche (if not worldwide). This episode had an opportunity to subvert those expectations specifically because they are there. For a simple story of indoctrination, it was a nice touch that gave the audience a brief opportunity to share in Chakotay's prejudices.
 
I've actually started thinking about a future project.

If or when I become a rich man, I will buy some land in some rather remote place in Canada or the US where I will start a community where the Vori language will be spoken, read, learned, developed and cultivated. :techman:

Why?

Why not?

It would be a great cultural and linguistic experiment!

Just curious if it meant something deeper than that. Okay. Could be interesting.
 
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