Far Beyond the Stars

[CorporalCaptain]

At least "Far Beyond the Stars" dared to be different, which was starting off on the right foot, as far as I'm concerned.

So becoming a completely different series out of the blue that has nothing to do with aliens, spaceships, space exploration etc. except in a completely fictional manner was a step into the right direction?
Sorry I don't understand that logic.

Many of the more highly regarded Star Trek episodes are different from the others. If you don't understand the logic of different being better than retreading the same ground, I can't really help you.

If that's the case I hope the next Abramsverse movie will recast Pine Quinto and the others in the setting of a "Jane Austen" stile comedy of manners set in England during the Regency Era in which Spock is not a Vulcan there are no space ships no aliens, but it's still named Star Trek. Brilliant!

I guess you missed the part where Benny was trying to sell the story of DS9 itself.

---

You know what's funny, but only in a way, is that the fact that Sisko was black was considered a noteworthy element of DS9, by both people in the general public and the media of the time that DS9 debuted. The fact that it was should be pretty convincing evidence that the 1990s was not too late to have an episode about the lead character's race and discrimination.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

I like Far Beyond The Stars. One could possibly criticize the focus on 1940s racism as being a tad self indulgent, but it didn't harm the quality of the episode.

In a 26 episode season, one episode that isn't about space isn't going to make it a completely different series. And it played into the theme of Sisko's relationship with the Prophets.

 

[JaxsBrokenHeart]

In an era where there is so much open discussion about diversity (or lack thereof) in casting, controversy over whitewashing of characters, and the debate about merits of a story in media vs. what its effect, I think in many ways the episode has more even more resonance now.

Its less a preachy lesson about race than it is a treatise of sorts on the power of dreams and ideas, about their power in our lives and how we sell ourselves short we we limit them by the constraints of our time. And not just dreams of true racial equality by Benny or but of sexuality, gender, weight, age, etc. Of flying through space, curing diseases, ending war, of the ideals that the franchise has often striven towards.

In that respect Russell as a person is inspiring not simply because he's a black man fighting against an unjust racist society (though that's significant), but also because he's a person fighting for a dream even though people sympathetic to him feel compelled to tell him to curb his passions for the sake of his own good. Its easy to not be a Mulkahey or Ryan, actively being ugly towards those they've othered in some way. Much harder to avoid being someone like Pabst, a man just trying to do his job, keep his head down, and not die on the proverbial hill when he never set out to change the world.

I mean its funny I've often heard this interpreted as a congratulatory self pat on the back by the franchise, and while various series have been guilty of that on level or another, I think one could reasonably see it as in some ways as self criticism of the franchise as a whole. In universe Incredible Tales no doubt is likely very forward thinking and progressive in comparison to other magazines, but that doesn't make immune to bowing to the status quo at a critical time.

In that regard Benny's impassioned rant about Stone and Pabst trying to deny his ideas and Hebert's disdainful sarcasm about Pabst's moral cowardice could just as easily be applied to the flaws of Trek itself, whether its own dubious treatment of certain minorities (see Native Americans) or its embarrassing lack of canon gay characters due to fear of controversy.

Finally as far as its supposed relationship to DS9 and that season itself, its worth noting that FBTS takes place six episodes before In the Pale Moonlight. In the latter, Ben, desperate to stop the momentum of the Dominion and prevent the deaths of so many from being in vain, compromised his dearest principles in order to get the Romulans into the war and give the Federation/Klingon alliance a chance at peace. Comparing the two back to back, its initially hard to reconcile the respective aesops of both. Yet I'm inclined to say they compliment each other.

In the Pale Moonlight demonstrates the harsh truth of what reality will put us in, that there may come a time in which we will have to do something a evil in order to avoid a worse evil. Far Beyond the Stars demonstrates the power of still holding onto our hopes even in spite of such circumstances. Captain Sisko must live with the guilt of what he has done, but can still dream of peace and of a time beyond this destructive war.

Even in the finale of the series, its the dreams of two individuals, Damar and Odo, that help eventually lead to victory and then peace. They were ideas that were considered dangerous and unrealistic in the show even by their allies, and came at a tremendous cost, but they were real and all the events in the Alpha Quadrant could not extinguish them because as Benny Russell said, you cannot destroy an idea.

 

[kirkfan]

I like Far Beyond The Stars. One could possibly criticize the focus on 1940s racism as being a tad self indulgent, but it didn't harm the quality of the episode.

In a 26 episode season, one episode that isn't about space isn't going to make it a completely different series. And it played into the theme of Sisko's relationship with the Prophets.

Personally, I see this as an opportunity to see them all, or almost all, out of make up. And for that reason it's fun, but not for much else I am afraid.

 

[LeadHead]

I'd imagine that this episode and others like it are quite fun for the actors, not just because they are out of their usual spacesuits and heavy makeup, but because they get to play another character. I'd think that it must've been fun and interesting for them to find ways to have some part of their DS9 character be a part of their 1950's character so there'd be clear pieces that inspired Benny's characters in the story, while at the same time, making the 1950's characters distinct from the DS9 characters. I think that Armin Shimmerman did this best, you could hear Quark in his exchanges with Pabst, and when he read Benny's story, but there was a certain idealism and concern for others that was never that strong in Quark.

 

[Dobian]

If that's the case I hope the next Abramsverse movie will recast Pine Quinto and the others in the setting of a "Jane Austen" stile comedy of manners set in England during the Regency Era in which Spock is not a Vulcan there are no space ships no aliens, but it's still named Star Trek. Brilliant!

You could still tie it in with the Star Trek theme. The story could be based on a novel by "Janeway Austen", for example.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

At least "Far Beyond the Stars" dared to be different, which was starting off on the right foot, as far as I'm concerned.

So becoming a completely different series out of the blue that has nothing to do with aliens, spaceships, space exploration etc. except in a completely fictional manner was a step into the right direction?
Sorry I don't understand that logic.
If that's the case I hope the next Abramsverse movie will recast Pine Quinto and the others in the setting of a "Jane Austen" stile comedy of manners set in England during the Regency Era in which Spock is not a Vulcan there are no space ships no aliens, but it's still named Star Trek. Brilliant!

So ST 13 should be a Doctor Who crossover?

 

[Dobian]

I'd imagine that this episode and others like it are quite fun for the actors, not just because they are out of their usual spacesuits and heavy makeup, but because they get to play another character. I'd think that it must've been fun and interesting for them to find ways to have some part of their DS9 character be a part of their 1950's character so there'd be clear pieces that inspired Benny's characters in the story, while at the same time, making the 1950's characters distinct from the DS9 characters.

Kind of like at the end of Wizard of Oz, Dorothy sees the real life counterparts of Scarecrow, Tin Man, Cowardly Lion, and the Wizard, out of costume and makeup.

 

[kirkfan]

I'd imagine that this episode and others like it are quite fun for the actors, not just because they are out of their usual spacesuits and heavy makeup, but because they get to play another character. I'd think that it must've been fun and interesting for them to find ways to have some part of their DS9 character be a part of their 1950's character so there'd be clear pieces that inspired Benny's characters in the story, while at the same time, making the 1950's characters distinct from the DS9 characters. I think that Armin Shimmerman did this best, you could hear Quark in his exchanges with Pabst, and when he read Benny's story, but there was a certain idealism and concern for others that was never that strong in Quark.

He seemed really upset about being called a "pinko", that puts him closer to Quark than anything else he said. I mean, it's funny with Rom quoting Carl Marx in Bar Association and all.

 

[kirkfan]

I'd imagine that this episode and others like it are quite fun for the actors, not just because they are out of their usual spacesuits and heavy makeup, but because they get to play another character. I'd think that it must've been fun and interesting for them to find ways to have some part of their DS9 character be a part of their 1950's character so there'd be clear pieces that inspired Benny's characters in the story, while at the same time, making the 1950's characters distinct from the DS9 characters.

Kind of like at the end of Wizard of Oz, Dorothy sees the real life counterparts of Scarecrow, Tin Man, Cowardly Lion, and the Wizard, out of costume and makeup.

Actually she saw them in the beginning as well. It was the people she knew all her life.

 

[sonak]

Everyone already knew that Trek shows don't go past 7 seasons,

Let me first say that I don't want my comments to come off as an attack against you personally. But this line of thinking has been a pet peeve of mine with certain segments of Trek fandom since TNG ended, so it's more of me venting against that than you personally.

I never understood that logic. It always smacked of fanboy herd mentality to me in the 90's. This bizarre thought that because things played out a certain way for TNG, that previously unknown truths were discovered about the nature of Trek on t.v. For example, because it took TNG three years "to get good", fans started saying that it took a Trek series "three years to get good". No, it doesn't, as evidenced by the original Star Trek being at it's best in it's first season. This line of thinking also ignored behind the scenes personnel changes as to why TNG "got good".

The same applies to the seven seasons thing. TNG lasted seven seasons so all of sudden people were holding this up as the ideal length of time for a Trek series. It was ridiculous. TNG lasted for that specific period of time for real world reasons. I remember most of the cast being ready to move on, the show wasn't really doing anything to reinvigorate itself and was getting stale among other things. Status changes to the characters that resulted in new positions, transfers of characters that allowed new characters to come in, would've resulted in a wealth of new stories and breathed new life into the show that would've easily allowed it to continue for years to come.

So if TNG had gotten better in it's fourth year, or ended in it's ninth year, those same Trek fans would've been saying "everyone knows it takes a Trek series four years to get good" or "everyone knows the ideal length of time for a Trek series is nine years". A modern version of this is happening now with Marvel Cinematic Universe fanboys proclaiming that any supergroup movie must be preceded by solo movies for each character. No, they don't.

And these "traditions" are even made stranger by the fact that TOS lasted only three seasons and the third one wasn't the best of the series.

Yes, but it did bring us "Spock's Brain."

 

[kirkfan]

Let me first say that I don't want my comments to come off as an attack against you personally. But this line of thinking has been a pet peeve of mine with certain segments of Trek fandom since TNG ended, so it's more of me venting against that than you personally.

I never understood that logic. It always smacked of fanboy herd mentality to me in the 90's. This bizarre thought that because things played out a certain way for TNG, that previously unknown truths were discovered about the nature of Trek on t.v. For example, because it took TNG three years "to get good", fans started saying that it took a Trek series "three years to get good". No, it doesn't, as evidenced by the original Star Trek being at it's best in it's first season. This line of thinking also ignored behind the scenes personnel changes as to why TNG "got good".

The same applies to the seven seasons thing. TNG lasted seven seasons so all of sudden people were holding this up as the ideal length of time for a Trek series. It was ridiculous. TNG lasted for that specific period of time for real world reasons. I remember most of the cast being ready to move on, the show wasn't really doing anything to reinvigorate itself and was getting stale among other things. Status changes to the characters that resulted in new positions, transfers of characters that allowed new characters to come in, would've resulted in a wealth of new stories and breathed new life into the show that would've easily allowed it to continue for years to come.

So if TNG had gotten better in it's fourth year, or ended in it's ninth year, those same Trek fans would've been saying "everyone knows it takes a Trek series four years to get good" or "everyone knows the ideal length of time for a Trek series is nine years". A modern version of this is happening now with Marvel Cinematic Universe fanboys proclaiming that any supergroup movie must be preceded by solo movies for each character. No, they don't.

And these "traditions" are even made stranger by the fact that TOS lasted only three seasons and the third one wasn't the best of the series.

Yes, but it did bring us "Spock's Brain."

And with that, one of the most famous lines in ST history: "Brain and brain! What is brain?"