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Fans of the early TNG Ferengi?

Ragitsu

Commodore
Commodore
Good afternoon.

Though there's a consensus (from what I have observed, anyhow) that the Ferengi were improved on the Star Trek series following The Next Generation, I have to say...their portrayal from The Last Outpost has grown on me over time. If you excise some of their goofier antics, you're left with cutthroat enigmatic traders boasting a strong pirate arm.
 
I had a dream years ago that in the Kelvinverse 24th century, the Ferengi had conquered the Cardassian Empire and were using Cardassian ships and foot soldiers as their military might. In such an event, the Ferengi were a ruthless and cunning race whose incredible wealth granted them enormous power. Basically they "bought" the Cardassian Empire, who was struggling in poverty and, in this timeline, had not developed a military of its own following the early pacifistic age it had enjoyed. This was all part of a backstory for a Kelvinverse TNG film where the Ferengi-owned Cardassian fleet invaded Earth, and destroyed the USS Stargazer. The surviving crew rejoined Starfleet at a remote outpost where the Galaxy-Cass Enterprise-D was launched to retake Earth.

It was actually a cool dream. :)
 
Their design (make-up, latex face bits, outfits - especially in DS9) all looks great.

I liked them in "The Battle", and in early TNG they had some cool camera angles and vantage points in showing them in full view on the viewscreen...

As with most characters (good or evil or otherwise), most start out rough around the edges - too rough and they're not going to be necessarily remembered in a good light. Their first full story is so clunky, inanely sophomoric, and heavyhanded in approach that I needed a doubletake on who edited the original teleplay to work out the kinks. It didn't help that "Encounter at Farpoint"'s handling of how they're said to eat humanoids was not given any dramatic weight - never mind lack of showing it or hinting at it, spewing exposition did nothing... It didn't help even more that they ended up being fodder as comic relief in later TNG episodes. Even in the classic third season, save for "Menage a Troi" and specifically Ethan Philips for nailing his role incredibly well - the guy's got impressive acting range -- and it's nice to see a Ferengi come across as properly menacing. That's what was needed from the get-go. But I digress, here's a screencap from an early episode - early TNG had some great camerawork and lighting (barring the black cardboard panels put over consoles in some scenes, but before I digress...)


ST-TNG-The-Last-Outpost.jpg


The following is some dialogue the story's initial script in a parallel universe:
Daimon Tarr: "Grr, where's my Alpo! Oh, my parallel-parallel universe counterpart cashed in on it."
Picard: "I say my dear chap, don't you need a good orthodontist? Or have you been acting like billy goat and trying to use those things as tin openers again?"


But anyhooey, nobody seemed to take the Ferengi to the next level until Armin Shimmerman came in for DS9 - by then, Trek was more than established, Shimmerman was one of the best actors to have played any Ferengi to date so it's an easy decision for him to make to come in... and the Ferengi are becoming a regular fixture. There's also a chance for more nuance and depth and that's when things get good -- note that the first person to recognize the potential for having more depth was due to Armin, predominantly due to his input, and when an actor really digs into a role the end result is going to shine that much more and Armin for Quark certainly does. DS9 wanted to take a species that fell flat during their initial creation, but then improve upon them, even if they were still going to be used for comic relief moments. (For many reasons, DS9 used them better... not to mention, "Move Along Home" is unfairly and unreasonably derided, not that I've talked about it before but I'm not going to digress any farther.)

If anything, the early notion of how they eat humans was avoided and never brought back or deconstructed. That would have been an awesome way to take a plot point from "Day of the Dove", which had Kirk discussing propaganda to Mara about the Klingons believing humans had death camps and all that (but didn't) - now turned 180 degrees. Riker's comment was a bit out of left field, and a step downward compared to previously established Trek, what with this being season 1 and no character was fully pegged down yet...

So maybe that's the rub - early TNG had no focus and the end result is a mixed bag just waiting to be fleshed out.

So either which way, even with my nittynosepicks, I appreciate how their creation and initial usage still led to something greater down the road.
 
Weren't they also space pirates in "Rascals" (Season 6)?

After a fashion, but where The Last Outpost featured physically comedic Ferengi, the Ferengi of Rascals were manifestly stupid to the point of hilarity after their brief initial display of competence at commandeering the Enterprise.
 
I had a dream years ago that in the Kelvinverse 24th century, the Ferengi had conquered the Cardassian Empire and were using Cardassian ships and foot soldiers as their military might. In such an event, the Ferengi were a ruthless and cunning race whose incredible wealth granted them enormous power. Basically they "bought" the Cardassian Empire, who was struggling in poverty and, in this timeline, had not developed a military of its own following the early pacifistic age it had enjoyed. This was all part of a backstory for a Kelvinverse TNG film where the Ferengi-owned Cardassian fleet invaded Earth, and destroyed the USS Stargazer. The surviving crew rejoined Starfleet at a remote outpost where the Galaxy-Cass Enterprise-D was launched to retake Earth.

It was actually a cool dream. :)

I'd watch this movie.

Hell, you could make it work in the Prime Timeline as the events following the fall of Cardassia.

Rom turns out to be a puppet leader and his chief of staff manipulates everything. Or, Rom himself turns out to be a ruthless bastard....
 
Like many I prefer the DS9 take on them, but the D'Kora is one of the best Trek starship designs and I wish we had gotten to see it in a TNG movie. Also I thought DaiMon Bok was a very good villain. Shame he also wasn't in a film. I think he would've worked better than the Duras Sisters in Generations.
 
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If Ferengi PIRATES can be that skilled with a Ferengi Energy Whip, I wonder what level of skill a dedicated Ferengi warrior could possess.
 
I'd watch this movie.

Hell, you could make it work in the Prime Timeline as the events following the fall of Cardassia.

Rom turns out to be a puppet leader and his chief of staff manipulates everything. Or, Rom himself turns out to be a ruthless bastard....

Actually, Rom need not be involved. Before leaving office, Zek broke the autocracy of the Nagus, spreading power out over a wider area. If enough old and wealthy hardliners gain positions of power, Zek's reforms could be quickly reversed.
 
I'd watch this movie.

Hell, you could make it work in the Prime Timeline as the events following the fall of Cardassia.

Rom turns out to be a puppet leader and his chief of staff manipulates everything. Or, Rom himself turns out to be a ruthless bastard....

He did almost kill Quark in "The Nagus".
 
After a fashion, but where The Last Outpost featured physically comedic Ferengi, the Ferengi of Rascals were manifestly stupid to the point of hilarity after their brief initial display of competence at commandeering the Enterprise.

Is that a show of competence by the Ferengi or a show of incompetence by Our Heroes?
 
It's interesting to watch early Ferengi, because one can see how the goal of having a new ideologically opposed baddie to the Enterprise and the goal of strongly lampooning/satirizing that ideology ended up working against each other. The writing was so focused on taking its own strawman version of 20th century humans and capitalism down a peg that it rendered the whole concept as too ridiculous to take remotely seriously.

That was telling too, because Trek was often great at creating various powers to stand in for philosophical/political ideas and making them work because their power (if not their morality) was something to be respected. I'd argue the Ferengi as a serious threat was on unsteady ground once they slipped into caricature during pre-production and Last Outpost may have destroyed it entirely, despite the best efforts of Daimon Bok's characterization in the Battle.
 
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The early Ferengi, as main baddies, just didn't work. They were replaced by much more satisfactory foes, like Romulans, Cardassians, and Borg.

DS9's decision to make them a more comic and neutral power was a good one. I'm simply not wild about the decision to have them morph from "ultra-capitaliat misogynist autocracy" to "Federation 2.0" in a few short years.
 
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Armin Shimmerman still apologizes for his performance to this day on The Last Outpost. Is it really his fault though? Where was the director or the producers?
 
That Shimmerman was able to elevate some of the more dubious moments in Ferengi comedy episodes on DS0 and yet couldn't at all save Last Outpost is fairly telling of how deeply flawed the script and direction of Last Outpost was.
 
It's interesting to watch early Ferengi, because one can see how the goal of having a new ideologically opposed baddie to the Enterprise and the goal of strongly lampooning/satirizing that ideology ended up working against each other. The writing was so focused on taking its own strawman version of 20th century humans and capitalism down a peg that it rendered the whole concept as too ridiculous to take remotely seriously.

That was telling too, because Trek was often great at creating various powers to stand in for philosophical/political ideas and making them work because their power (if not their morality) was something to be respected. I'd argue the Ferengi as a serious threat was on unsteady ground once they slipped into caricature during pre-production and Last Outpost may have destroyed it entirely, despite the best efforts of Daimon Bok's characterization in the Battle.

The Ferengi as originally envisioned by Roddenberry were not necessarily 'evil;' they were just capitalists in a universe where money and the pursuit of material wealth was anathema. As a matter of fact, several things about the Ferengi were absolutely lost in their initial appearance. They weren't supposed to be goofy thugs flailing around like idiots and salivating over gold communicators. In the original script, they were actually quite intelligent and even helped the Away Team on the planet's surface. And the reason for the bright white light in the background in their first appearance on the viewscreen? Not because they didn't have the budget to show the Ferengi ship's interior...it was because they had extremely poor eyesight and needed ultra bright light to see well. That's why their ears were so large, because one sensory organ compensated for another that didn't work as well.
 
Armin Shimmerman still apologizes for his performance to this day on The Last Outpost. Is it really his fault though? Where was the director or the producers?

Sometimes it takes time to work out an alien species. Armin Shimerman was essential in evolving the Ferengi into the excellent comic relief they ended up becoming. Aron Eisenberg would, in time, evolve them further.
 
The Ferengi as originally envisioned by Roddenberry were not necessarily 'evil;' they were just capitalists in a universe where money and the pursuit of material wealth was anathema. As a matter of fact, several things about the Ferengi were absolutely lost in their initial appearance. They weren't supposed to be goofy thugs flailing around like idiots and salivating over gold communicators. In the original script, they were actually quite intelligent and even helped the Away Team on the planet's surface. And the reason for the bright white light in the background in their first appearance on the viewscreen? Not because they didn't have the budget to show the Ferengi ship's interior...it was because they had extremely poor eyesight and needed ultra bright light to see well. That's why their ears were so large, because one sensory organ compensated for another that didn't work as well.
Honestly between this and the various stories of Roddenberry/Maizlish changing scripts (even DC Fontana's) has me really wondering just how different (and potentially better) season 1 could have been if the original concepts were stuck to more often.
 
I don't know...at least these initial offerings were somewhat alien. DS9 humanized them a little too much.
 
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