Families of humanoid species?

[at Quark's]

From TNG: Who watches the Watchers

TROI: According to Doctor Barron's preliminary reports, the Mintakans are proto-Vulcan humanoids at the Bronze Age level. Quite peaceful and highly rational.
PICARD: Which is not surprising, considering how closely their evolution parallels Vulcan.

From DS9: The Forsaken

ODO: Dopterians are distant relatives of the Ferengi. It made sense that if you couldn't read Quark, you might not be able to read this charming fellow either.

So, from the first quote it seems that Vulcans are recognised as a kind of prototype for 'Vulcanoid' races, whether they actually are Vulcan-descended (e.g. Romulans) or probably not (Mintakans). Then, the second quote would seem to suggest there is an actual familial relation between Dopterians and Ferengi- but it could also be taken to mean 'they fit into the same generalized 'Ferenginoid' template' and nothing more than that.

So, do you think the Federation just uses some kind of classification scheme for different humanoid species, or are actual 'family trees' between species, such as between the Vulcans and Romulans far more common than we're led to believe ?

Also, since 'humanoid' already clearly refers to all , well, humanoid species, including Vulcanoid and Ferenginoid species and Klingons and all such, what would be the generalized name for (the many) species that really look a lot closer to the Earth human 'template' than to any other (e.g. Vulcanoid)?

 

[Tim Thomason]

I personally believe that most species, besides humans and a select few others, are descended from long-lost colony worlds and exiled groups. Dopterians might be descended from Proto-Ferengis used as a slave species a million years ago, for example. Vulcans probably aren't native to their planet, so they and the Mintakans might have a common ancestor in the 500,000YA range or sooner.

The Preservers are a thing, moving humans around for giggles. They probably did that with other species as well.

 

[Orphalesion]

It's interesting that the Mintakans are highly logical, peaceful and secular at a Bronze Age level when the Vulcans at that point in their history were over-emotional, warlike and prayed to gods (though the Mintakan who mistakes Picard for a god gets very emotional rather quickly and slips into idolatry rather quickly)
This either suggest a different societal evolution, despite the similarity in appearance, or it could mean that the Mintakans are a lost off-spring of the post-Surak Vulcans, possibly an extreme form Luddites who have forgotten (or purposefully forgot) their own history, or perhaps even a post-apocalyptic society (though if that was the case the Federation observers might have notices *something* along the line)
I think some expanded universe material suggest that they are an offshoot of the Romulan diaspora, but that's of course irrelevant to a canon discussion, but could still be a possibility.Though again, unless the first Mintakan beamed down on the planet with nothing but the clothes on their back with the iron conviction to LARP "Clan of the Cave Bear" for the rest of their lives (the Mintakan leader says they found primitive tools in caves, suggestiong that their ancestors lived there) the Observation Post should have found something to that effect.

Unlike the Mintakans (who really do just look like Romulans or Vulcans in peasant dresses), the Dopterians look quite distinctive from the Ferengi. If I'm not mistaken DS9 suggests that the Ferengi have been traveling space far longer than the humans have, so it's possible that the Dopterians are a result of Ferengi interbreeding with another species (just like the Thalaxians are, apparently a mixture of two species)

Though the idea of templates that are likely to develop given a specific planetary environment is also possible from what we learned in The Chase, and the Kazon, the Talarians and the Aliens form "The Shute" all look somewhat similar to the Klingons, suggestion a possible "Klingonoid" template as well, plus all the completely human looking aliens we see in all the shows. And the Ocampa could be a more derived member of the a "Vulcanoid" template.
Plus the ease with which many of the humanoid aliens are able to interbreed with each other in canon material (again quater-Betazoid Devinoni Ral being one of five children of a human father and a half-Betazoid mother) also suggests that at least a number of species are very similar (Betazoids could easily be a member of the Human template who just happened to develop exceptional telepathic powers. TOS established that there are human espers)

 

[tesral]

There will be phylogeny. Star Trek writers are not well versed in same. It is a full time job to be well versed in same.

"Humanoid" is a morphology, biped, two arms two legs head on top. It could mean relation, or it could mean parallel evolution. Both have been stated.

Trying to rationalized it into a single system? That Way Lies Madness.

 

[danellis]

Plus the ease with which many of the humanoid aliens are able to interbreed with each other in canon material (again quater-Betazoid Devinoni Ral being one of five children of a human father and a half-Betazoid mother)

Don't they have a bit in DS9 about Julian having to do *something* for Jadzia and Worf (donate maybe? lol) so that they could have children? I don't remember anything saying how permanent that "thing" would be, or if it would be necessary every time they wanted to "try."

dJE

 

[Orphalesion]

Don't they have a bit in DS9 about Julian having to do *something* for Jadzia and Worf (donate maybe? lol) so that they could have children? I don't remember anything saying how permanent that "thing" would be, or if it would be necessary every time they wanted to "try."

dJE

To me that compatibility always seemed to be on a species-by-species basis, and assuming a system where "human" is the "base model" so to say, the Klingons and Trill are very derived from that "base model" possibly in different directions even (one a huge warrior species with extra organs and bone ridges, the other a species that lives in biological symbiosis with sapient slugs).
So it's possible that Trill/Human and Klingon/Human pairs have an easier time reproducing than a Trill/Klingon pair has.

That being said on TNG we saw a whole former prison colony filled with Klingon/Romulan hybrids and Betazoid/Human hybrid Deanna Troi was surprised that Klingons can reproduce with humans when she met K'ehleyr so it seems really a species-by-species thing.
It's possible that some species (probably very similar ones, like Betazoids and Humans, for example) only need to do very little (maybe a single session of "gene therapy" for their entire lives) or even nothing at all to reproduce with each other, while other species that are more different form another might have to undergo some sort of "gene therapy" for their whole pregnancy, and some species might even be unable to reproduce at all. Irrc Jadzia was positively surprised when Julian told her that it will be possible for her and Worf to have a kid. Of course we never learned what medical help she might have needed since...wasn't that the day she died?
I'm not that good with Voyager, but I can't remember whether Tom and B'ellana had to do anything to have their daughter? I only remember B'ellana wanted the doctor to remove her baby's Klingon DNA.

 

[Kor]

Don't they have a bit in DS9 about Julian having to do *something* for Jadzia and Worf (donate maybe? lol) so that they could have children? I don't remember anything saying how permanent that "thing" would be, or if it would be necessary every time they wanted to "try."

dJE

It was in "Tears of the Prophets." Bashir administered "ovarian resequencing enzymes" to Jadzia. It looked like they were working correctly, so it should have been possible for Jadzia and Worf to have a baby.

Kor

 

[Tribble Threat]

I like to think that the Ferengi and that other species evolved separately on the same planet. I like to think that although most planets only have one currently-living intelligent species, there are more than a few that have more than one. Enterprise explored this theme a couple times, quite well. I'd enjoy having a list of species who are from the same planet.
However, when it comes to the Mintakans, there's a key scene I can't ignore where the Mintakan woman talks about how her people used to live in caves and huts before they knew how to build houses. So it makes the most sense to assume they simply evolved there. Although it's also possible some ancient alien species put Vulcans on Mintaka. And then with the resemblance between Vulcans and Kazon, canon makes it clear they're from very distant places, so it's highly unlikely they evolved from a common source.
So, the best we can do is assume some of the species are related to each other, and some of them simply evolved convergently. And canon rarely tells us which are which, so we can pick and choose with our own headcanon.
Canon also rarely indicates whether a mixed-species child was a test tube baby. I take it as my headcanon that they're all test tube babies, and if I ever hear of an example of a mixed-species baby who was an accident, I'll count that individual as a unique acception.

 

[dupersuper]

From TNG: Who watches the Watchers



From DS9: The Forsaken



So, from the first quote it seems that Vulcans are recognised as a kind of prototype for 'Vulcanoid' races, whether they actually are Vulcan-descended (e.g. Romulans) or probably not (Mintakans). Then, the second quote would seem to suggest there is an actual familial relation between Dopterians and Ferengi- but it could also be taken to mean 'they fit into the same generalized 'Ferenginoid' template' and nothing more than that.

So, do you think the Federation just uses some kind of classification scheme for different humanoid species, or are actual 'family trees' between species, such as between the Vulcans and Romulans far more common than we're led to believe ?

Also, since 'humanoid' already clearly refers to all , well, humanoid species, including Vulcanoid and Ferenginoid species and Klingons and all such, what would be the generalized name for (the many) species that really look a lot closer to the Earth human 'template' than to any other (e.g. Vulcanoid)?

Well, most or all humanoids in the milky way are designed/genetically influenced by the Progenitors, then Sargon said his people may have seeded Vulcan and other worlds, presumably including the Mentokan home world (and a flashback in the Q Continuum books describe his people as Vulcan looking) then the Romulans broke off from the Vulcans (with those in the north getting bumpy foreheads for some reason), then the Preservers (who may be the Progenitors according to Star Trek Online) transplanted humans and other humanoids (plus possibly the dinosaurs that would evolve into the Voth, and another dinosaur species in the novels), and at least 1 or 2 species kidnapped humans for slaves (as seen in The 37s and North Star). I don't know if any novels/comics/video games went into the Ferengi/Dopterian connection, but much of humanoid life in the milky way is pretty closely connected.

 

[Orphalesion]

then Sardon said his people may have seeded Vulcan and other worlds, presumably including the Mentokan home world

But assuming Sargon's people seeded Vulcan and Mintaka at the same time, isn't it a bit unlikely that one of these civilizations would be a space faring one since the 9th century BCE (as problematic as that idea is anyway...), while the other is still at a Bronze Age level?
Wouldn't it be more likely that the Vulcan "template" has a high likely hood to develop on arid worlds seeded by the Chase aliens?

 

[dupersuper]

But assuming Sargon's people seeded Vulcan and Mintaka at the same time, isn't it a bit unlikely that one of these civilizations would be a space faring one since the 9th century BCE (as problematic as that idea is anyway...), while the other is still at a Bronze Age level?
Wouldn't it be more likely that the Vulcan "template" has a high likely hood to develop on arid worlds seeded by the Chase aliens?

Certainly possible, but there are any number of reasons they could've been held back for a while. Also, we don't know how long their colonizing phase lasted: they could've been seed hundreds, even of thousands of years apart.

 

[at Quark's]

But assuming Sargon's people seeded Vulcan and Mintaka at the same time, isn't it a bit unlikely that one of these civilizations would be a space faring one since the 9th century BCE (as problematic as that idea is anyway...), while the other is still at a Bronze Age level?
Wouldn't it be more likely that the Vulcan "template" has a high likely hood to develop on arid worlds seeded by the Chase aliens?

I suppose you mean mainly because they are 'Vulcanoid' . After all, we've seen here on earth that stone age and (let's say) 19th or 20th century levels of development can exist simultaneously (if they're not in contact) so in itself a different rate of development is not weird.

Then I think the answer might be that Vulcans are not extremely rational by nature. We know from Vulcan history they had exceedingly violent emotions, until they learned to control them by Surak's teachings. Perhaps that kind of 'revolution' doesn't happen everywhere, or at least not everywhere at the same time. In the case of the Mintakans too, the shedding off of superstition, ignorance and fear was described by Picard as an 'achievement', IIRC.

 

[Shawnster]

However, when it comes to the Mintakans, there's a key scene I can't ignore where the Mintakan woman talks about how her people used to live in caves and huts before they knew how to build houses. So it makes the most sense to assume they simply evolved there.

Or they were survivors of a ship that crashed during the Romulan exodus and the survivors simply lost their knowledge of technology over the generations. They left Vulcan roughly 2,000 years before "Who Watches the Watchers." That could be 10 generations of crash descendants.

Of course, that idea ignores the word "proto" in the "proto-Vulcan" description. And would a telepathic species lose their technological knowledge that rapidly?

 

[at Quark's]

Or they were survivors of a ship that crashed during the Romulan exodus and the survivors simply lost their knowledge of technology over the generations. They left Vulcan roughly 2,000 years before "Who Watches the Watchers." That could be 10 generations of crash descendants.

Of course, that idea ignores the word "proto" in the "proto-Vulcan" description. And would a telepathic species lose their technological knowledge that rapidly?

It also ignores the 'Which is not surprising, considering how closely their evolution parallels Vulcan.' remark from Picard. I'd take from that they evolved on Mintaka, or at least, that Picard (and, assuming he read their reports, therefore probably the archaeologists on the planet), seems to have no indications that might not be true. Unless, of course, 'evolution' was used not in the more generic sense there.

 

[Orphalesion]

Then I think the answer might be that Vulcans are not extremely rational by nature. We know from Vulcan history they had exceedingly violent emotions, until they learned to control them by Surak's teachings. Perhaps that kind of 'revolution' doesn't happen everywhere, or at least not everywhere at the same time. In the case of the Mintakans too, the shedding off of superstition, ignorance and fear was described by Picard as an 'achievement', IIRC.

It is correct that they aren't extremely rational by nature, but as i wrote earlier in the thread it's interesting then that the Mintakans shed superstition and embraced rationality (or at least tried to, see how easy it came back in the episode) at a Bronce-Age level, while the Vulcans didn't find it until after their nuclear holocaust.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

All we know is that they all descended from the Chase aliens. There's not enough evidence to say whether similar groups of aliens had a common ancestor or whether common habitats drove similar evolution.

 

[Tim Thomason]

I think the Vulcans exaggerate their emotional past, and give a little too much credit to Surak. It was probably a much more gradual process towards logic/emotion-control, perhaps dating back to their own stone age. Voyager gave us indications that there was a biological component to their logical nature, and also told us about Rumarie, a Vulcan Bacchanalia-ish festival that was still going on 1000 years after Surak's death (and the koon-ut-kal-if-fee still going on 2000 years later).

Surak was probably just one in a long chain of similar philosophers and stoics.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

I prefer the my original term:

- Generic term for Humanoid -
BiPedaloid <- Walking using only 2 rear limbs
- Most Sentient & Sapient UFP member races are BiPedaloids
- Most are BiBrachialoids (Having 2 Arms), there are a few exceptions to that rule with certain species having 4 limbs or 2 arms and a tail that has similar functions to a arm
- Most have one Head, but that is implied
- Bi(Pedal & Brachial)loids
- Colloquially: BiPaB

 

[FormerLurker]

Surak was probably just one in a long chain of similar philosophers and stoics.

As his is the name they revere above all others, he most likely was the latest, who codified all the various theorems and ideologies of his predecessors, and then presented them to Vulcan at large for them to use to save themselves.

 

[Timo]

But assuming Sargon's people seeded Vulcan and Mintaka at the same time, isn't it a bit unlikely that one of these civilizations would be a space faring one since the 9th century BCE (as problematic as that idea is anyway...), while the other is still at a Bronze Age level?

Not really. Developing a civilization is a pretty random process as far as we can judge, from our sampling of one known case. If the Sargonians dropped pointy-eared cavemen on two planets, one might invent fire in 500 years, while the other invented it in 50,000 if then. And from fire to agriculture might take a millennium or then a million years. Especially if one planet was mostly sand and the other mostly fertile soil. Even at the later stages of the process, certain civilizations on our planet invented steam engines either a thousand years before others, or then ten thousand - it just then happened they brought those to the others by force (of steam), throwing the game.

But Sargon doesn't say they would have dropped cavemen on Vulcan. What he speaks of is the likelihood that Vulcan's Adam and Eve were members of Sargon's society, perhaps two youngsters whose star cruiser broke down - or, less literally, a smallish group of Sargonians who decided to settle a planet but then degenerated to primitives who (almost) forgot their own past.

"Sargonian" probably isn't a species, any more than "Fed" is. Whether the Sargonians even believed in species, or instead modified their biological identity at will, is unknown. But both humans and Vulcans might be descendants of Sargonians, without much in the way of biological shenanigans. At most, native pre-Vulcans and pre-humans might have interbred with Sargonians, resulting in modern Vulcans and Homo sapiens, respectively.

Timo Saloniemi