Faith/Religion/Spirituality - Self-Denial? And Philosophy

[Deks]

Believing something does not mean excluding the possibility of being wrong.

I am aware of that... however, a lot of people who incorporate 'belief' more often than not 'override' the line of thinking they could be mistaken - they don't consider such possibilities and keep them in mind regardless unless something happens that prompts them to think along those lines.

A lot of people (but not all) don't like it when others express positions and points of views that question pre-established notions/'beliefs' because it can bring about uncertainty of the very foundations they built their lives around.

 

[horatio83]

I usually use my bicycle when I go out (I don't drive a car). The possibilities for accidents that could easily result in my death (or deaths of others) are effectively endless (which apparently have a tendency to occur on a daily basis in practically all areas of the planet to anyone).
Again, what's the purpose of 'belief' here?
I don't need it to 'live' or to 'survive the day', 'function', nor do I find the term of any relevance or even remotely applicable to my life.

Like you I am also a bicycle driver and having had a near-death accident as a kid I am rationally aware of the dangers. But when I actually sit on my bike I have to ignore these dangers. Psychologists call it cognitive dissonance, i.e. when there are two notions that are in conflict with each other, "I am a smart guy" vs. "I do something dangerous" you shut one of them out. Virtually always people choose to pretend that they are not doing something dangerous as this is obviously better for your self-esteem than admitting that you are an idiot.
Being a veggie I realized that this also happens when people buy meat. It is not that they do are not very well aware of the horrible conditions in which many animals vegetate but when they enter the supermarket they can disavow it and pretend that they do not know.

In order to function as an ordinary human being you have to believe a lot of things which are not necessarily true. To claim otherwise is to massively fool yourself about the human condition and pretend that you are a robot of rationality which you simply are not and cannot be.

 

[Deckerd]

The thing is, as with just about anything else, people use the word "believe" in different ways and have varying personal definitions. Believing something does not mean excluding the possibility of being wrong.

It's actually even simpler than that. The verb 'believe' has more than one definition and by this I mean OED definiton, not 'personal definition' whatever that's supposed to be. Those of you in here who are pretending it doesn't are incorrect.

 

[datagal]

The question/comment about prayer...

I'm coming from a Roman Catholic perspective, so I'm not going to be able to speak for the new non-denominational, evangelical beliefs...

We were taught that prayer is for worship/meditation and asking God to help us help ourselves... You can't ask for God to help you with a math test, or to help you win the lottery... Our swim team had sweatshirts with "God is on our side" printed on the back, not as an actual statement, but as a tease to the teams they were swimming against, knowing full well that God was not going to favor the Catholic team over those from the public schools.

I believe that prayer is not a way to ask God for anything other than help to realize my own potential... "Help me find the strength," not "Give me bigger muscles."...

Putting our faith in God through prayer gives us peace of mind during stressful or crisis situations, just as those who practice other forms of meditation find peace doing what they do (which I also do, by the way)... It's a way to just calm down and take stock, knowing that while God may not swing down and keep the crisis from happening, our belief that there is a God and Heaven gives us some solice and peace, should the worst happen. Atheists cannot proved God doesn't exist any more than the faithful can prove he/she/it does, so why not trust in your faith.

Full disclosure that I am also a kind of deist, in that I believe that God does not intervene with daily life.. He set out life in the Universe and lets it take its course, with occasional adjustments along the way (see also: Jesus)...

And to answer the question as to why some religeous faithful don't just leave the atheists alone, the answer is simple... Teachings in almost all faiths dictate that it is the duty of the faithful to preach the word and convert those they meet.. It's not because they are jerks, it's because that is their belief.. Personally, I have a distaste for that kind of thing.. I like to be left alone as much as anyone else.. But if someone asks me about my beliefs, I'm glad to tell them...

They usually end up more confused than before they asked..

That's a very good post.
I'm a Christian of the Baptist kind and what you stated is almost exactly the way I feel when it comes to prayer and faith.

 

[Mr Awe]

Sorry Deks, I'm sure you're trying to look all original here but the fact is you do believe in things. Otherwise, you couldn't function.

I don't consider my way of thinking to be 'special'... merely different.
As for functioning without 'beliefs'... I seem to function just fine without ascribing to notions of 'belief' (in any shape or form) - as do many other people.

You're too funny. Beliefs are essentially an assumption about something. Hopefully, an assumption based on facts, but that's not always the case. If you operate without assumptions, you're always figuring everything out from scratch.

You simply can't function like that. You need to make assumptions about the behavior of people and the world we live in just to get through each day.

Actually, by examining past evidence I usually arrive at certain results/evidence (due to observation - which is an approximation), but I don't think of those results/evidence as the 'truth', 'the absolute' or something 'fixed' that I necessarily 'follow' or ascribe by - they are just possibilities.

And, you yourself in the above statement just confirmed what I said. We're not talking about "truth". Your "possibilities" that you function by, are beliefs.

I actually salute the fact that you seem to base your beliefs on empirical analysis. As I said earlier, that's a good thing.

Mr Awe

 

[Mr Awe]

The thing is, as with just about anything else, people use the word "believe" in different ways and have varying personal definitions. Believing something does not mean excluding the possibility of being wrong.

It's actually even simpler than that. The verb 'believe' has more than one definition and by this I mean OED definiton, not 'personal definition' whatever that's supposed to be. Those of you in here who are pretending it doesn't are incorrect.

I've already defined is as I'm using it in this thread.

Belief: conviction of the truth of some statement or the reality of some being or phenomenon especially when based on examination of evidence

So, when Deks talks about observing the world and coming up with possibilites, well that fits right in with the definition of belief that is above. It's not different in any way. However, I do applaud the fact that he says he bases it on empirical evidence.

Mr Awe

 

[iguana_tonante]

The question/comment about prayer...

Putting our faith in God through prayer gives us peace of mind during stressful or crisis situations, just as those who practice other forms of meditation find peace doing what they do (which I also do, by the way)... It's a way to just calm down and take stock

Interesting comment. Although an atheist, I have found that during times of stress, anxiety, and fear, recitations help me to regain my footing. The actual words and meaning do not matter: it's the act of reciting that helps. So, having being raised Catholic and still remembering the words, in a few instance of my life I have prayed, in a sense. Of course, I have also recited passages of my favourite books, mathematical theorems, and dialogues from various tv series. They all helped. So I guess my conclusion is that prayers do not actually work except in the mind of the celebrant, or that God is a fan of J.R.R. Tolkien, Joseph-Louis Lagrange, Karl Weierstrass and Gene Roddenberry.

 

[Deckerd]

There's comfort in ritual. It's a human thing.

 

[marillion]

Full disclosure that I am also a kind of deist, in that I believe that God does not intervene with daily life.. He set out life in the Universe and lets it take its course, with occasional adjustments along the way...

Ah yes, St. Thomas Aquinas. And Rush.

You ain't kidding, brother!!!

@ Horatio83... I see where you are going with your post and it was well said.. However, it showed me that I didn't take my thought one step further in the post to say that while we pray to help realize our own strength to deal with stress and crisis, I do believe it is/was ultimately God that gives us that strength in the first place... It's up to us to find and use it...

See.. I told you I just end up confusing people when I try to explain what I believe..

 

[Ryan8bit]

The question/comment about prayer...

Putting our faith in God through prayer gives us peace of mind during stressful or crisis situations, just as those who practice other forms of meditation find peace doing what they do (which I also do, by the way)... It's a way to just calm down and take stock

Interesting comment. Although an atheist, I have found that during times of stress, anxiety, and fear, recitations help me to regain my footing. The actual words and meaning do not matter: it's the act of reciting that helps. So, having being raised Catholic and still remembering the words, in a few instance of my life I have prayed, in a sense. Of course, I have also recited passages of my favourite books, mathematical theorems, and dialogues from various tv series. They all helped. So I guess my conclusion is that prayers do not actually work except in the mind of the celebrant, or that God is a fan of J.R.R. Tolkien, Joseph-Louis Lagrange, Karl Weierstrass and Gene Roddenberry.

That's like in Stephen King's It where the kid recites all the birds he knows in alphabetical order when he's trapped inside a strange home.

 

[horatio83]

Full disclosure that I am also a kind of deist, in that I believe that God does not intervene with daily life.. He set out life in the Universe and lets it take its course, with occasional adjustments along the way...

Ah yes, St. Thomas Aquinas. And Rush.

You ain't kidding, brother!!!

@ Horatio83... I see where you are going with your post and it was well said.. However, it showed me that I didn't take my thought one step further in the post to say that while we pray to help realize our own strength to deal with stress and crisis, I do believe it is/was ultimately God that gives us that strength in the first place... It's up to us to find and use it...

See.. I told you I just end up confusing people when I try to explain what I believe..

Even atheists have a similar God notion. They might not call it God but sense of basic trust. It could also be the vague belief that the universe does somehow care or, to use the Christian notion, just a belief in the Holy Spirit, in human community.
I think that even the most rational cynic must believe just a tiny bit into something metaphysical. My idea is unifying one, that people consciously choose to follow this religion or be an atheist or whatever but underneath their conscious choice the 'religion, belief, trust and meaning' part of their brain cannot simply be deactivated.

 

[Deckerd]

Even atheists have a similar God notion. They might not call it God but sense of basic trust. It could also be the vague belief that the universe does somehow care or, to use the Christian notion, just a belief in the Holy Spirit, in human community.
I think that even the most rational cynic must believe just a tiny bit into something metaphysical. My idea is unifying one, that people consciously choose to follow this religion or be an atheist or whatever but underneath their conscious choice the 'religion, belief, trust and meaning' part of their brain cannot simply be deactivated.

Horsefeathers. Atheists don't believe in anything metaphysical. What you're talking about above is religious believers. Just because you can't imagine how it feels doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

 

[Deks]

You simply can't function like that. You need to make assumptions about the behavior of people and the world we live in just to get through each day.

But that's the thing.
I don't like making assumptions and steer clear of them.

When I talk with people, I ask them questions in order to get to know them better... and if they seemingly state something that might require an assumption, I ask them to be precise and clarify what is it they meant because I don't like to guess.
This is something that certain people find a bit tedious as they 'feel' as if they need to 'explain every little thing' - but in order to formulate a response appropriate to the question they posed, I need them to point out the details, because otherwise, I'd be making assumptions (which is what I tell them) and the possibility of making a mistake increases.

And, you yourself in the above statement just confirmed what I said. We're not talking about "truth". Your "possibilities" that you function by, are beliefs.

I actually salute the fact that you seem to base your beliefs on empirical analysis. As I said earlier, that's a good thing.

Mr Awe

No... the possibilities would be merely... possibilities (theoretical constructs that might or might not come to pass).
I don't necessarily function on them.
I take them under advisement and keep them in mind as something temporary (subject to change at any given time), but that would be the extent of it.
In essence I probably would be starting from 'scratch' (every single time) as you previously noted.

 

[iguana_tonante]

My idea is unifying one, that people consciously choose to follow this religion or be an atheist or whatever but underneath their conscious choice the 'religion, belief, trust and meaning' part of their brain cannot simply be deactivated.

Interesting idea. But also, unfortunately, wrong.

 

[horatio83]

Even atheists have a similar God notion. They might not call it God but sense of basic trust. It could also be the vague belief that the universe does somehow care or, to use the Christian notion, just a belief in the Holy Spirit, in human community.
I think that even the most rational cynic must believe just a tiny bit into something metaphysical. My idea is unifying one, that people consciously choose to follow this religion or be an atheist or whatever but underneath their conscious choice the 'religion, belief, trust and meaning' part of their brain cannot simply be deactivated.

Horsefeathers. Atheists don't believe in anything metaphysical. What you're talking about above is religious believers. Just because you can't imagine how it feels doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Why did I know in advance that some black-and-white dude wouldn't understand it and categorize me as religious?
I am a hardcore materialist, I do not believe in God or anything metaphysical. But without basically lying to yourself and pretending that one's world is safe and does make sense no human being can function properly.

 

[iguana_tonante]

Decker is a black-and-white dude? Like Bele? Or was it Lokai?

 

[thestrangequark]

My idea is unifying one, that people consciously choose to follow this religion or be an atheist or whatever but underneath their conscious choice the 'religion, belief, trust and meaning' part of their brain cannot simply be deactivated.

Interesting idea. But also, unfortunately, wrong.

Indeed. Have you not considered the idea, horatio that not everyone has a "religion/belief, trust and meaning" part of the brain? Or that that part of the brain may be larger/more active/more dominant in some than in others?

 

[sojourner]

Deks, answer this. How do you process the text you're seeing right now? By your own comments in this thread, you can't assume that the tiny squiggles you're seeing form letters which then form words which then form sentences in the english language. Because you don't believe anything means you should find it necessary to re-educate yourself at every given moment.

Just because you choose not to "live by the word belief" (which in and of itself IS a belief) doesn't make it possible to eradicate all situations where that word would apply to you. Any attempt is just playing semantic games with yourself and as I stated before makes you look silly and pseudo-intellectual to everyone else. It's like a 5 year old suddenly declaring that he's not going to use oxygen for the rest of his life.

 

[horatio83]

My idea is unifying one, that people consciously choose to follow this religion or be an atheist or whatever but underneath their conscious choice the 'religion, belief, trust and meaning' part of their brain cannot simply be deactivated.

Interesting idea. But also, unfortunately, wrong.

Indeed. Have you not considered the idea, horatio that not everyone has a "religion/belief, trust and meaning" part of the brain? Or that that part of the brain may be larger/more active/more dominant in some than in others?

No idea, you are the psychologist. I am just a layman who thinks that people who lack a sense of basic trust have to become neurotic.

 

[iguana_tonante]

I fail to see what "a sense of basic trust" has to do with belief and meaning.