Exelsior's Transwarp drive

[Longinus]

For the Exelsior's engine to be the Newt-Drive from Voyager, we would have to believe that the Starfleet would have built an engine that they assumed to be capable of infinite speed, but because of some design flaw didn't work. They never built smaller scale test more of any kind, nor was Exelsior's engine ever tested in any way prior fully completing the ship. Furthermore, we have to believe that Stiles chose to use that totally untested engine that was unlike anything ever built before on a random chase in the solar system. Then, in next 80 or so years they are incapable of fixing problems with this engine, only to have stooges on Voyager to make it work (at least for a moment) on a shuttle.

Exelsior was certainly seen as pretty awesome, but I really did not get an impression that it was believed to be able to reach infinite speed.

Only reason for Exelsior failing to catch Enterprise shown on screen is Scotty sabotaging her engine. Which, by the way, would have been unnecessary had the engine not been working in the first place.

I think that far lesser amount of riducolous assumptions has to be made to say: Exelsior transwarp = TNG warp.

 

[USS Jack Riley]

"No way, Kirk," Styles said. "We'll meet you coming back! Prepare for warp speed! Stand by transwarp drive!"
Damned showoff, Sulu thought. Excelsior could catch the Enterprise with warp speed alone; with transwarp it would overshoot its quarry and, indeed, have to come back to meet it.

I also wonder why, if transwarp is simply a version of warp drive that is faster but not all that different, why lines like "Prepare for warp speed! Stand by transwarp Drive!" are in there at all. They really seem to be trying to suggest it is going to have clearly different operation, which runs rather contrary to the idea that it could silently and comprehensively replace warp drive throughout the Starfleet without further comment.[/quote]

This could be a reference to 2 completely different drive systems. Similar to WWII subs, which had a battery powered drive (for underwater operations) and diesel (for surface operations). Another analogy, however fictional, might be the Red October's regular propulsion and its "Catepillar" silent propulsion system.

In both the WWII subs and the Red October, the different drives were mutually exclusive. I suppose you could nitpick and say that the WWII sub analogy is irrelevant based on its being 2 different power sources (electric battery v. diesel engine), but to me it is a real world (as opposed to the fictional Red October's) example of 2 different drive systems. Those in the military may have a better analogy.

Why have 2 drives on Excelsior? For the reason stated in the novelization, she will overshoot her target and have to use warp power to come back to the Enterprise, which could be several light years away. Better to use transwarp for the big jumps, warp drive to get a more precise destination and impulse to bring you in sublight and then thrusters to keep you in orbit.

YMMV

 

[Vance]

You mis-read the statement, Jack. "Get you coming back" just meant that we're just THAT fast, you cannout outrun us. The idea that it somehow directly translates into a definition of how the drive works is typical Trek Fandom Overthinking.

 

[Plecostomus]

Well lets take this to the extreme. I worked all this out for my RPG group so YMMV:

The Transwarp on the Excelsior was based on a fragment of Borg technology recovered from Earth. (Enterprise) It took years and years of research by many of the best minds in the Federation to figure out how to make it work, and when they did they were able to send probes across the galaxy in a matter of months, and to other galaxies.

All well and good, now it was time to scale it up for a ship. Several smaller ships were built, and all proved the concept. It was decided to design a newer long-duration ship that could fully benefit from the new drive, and the Excelsior was that ship.

Despite the sabotage the drive worked and opened up the frontier in ways they never imagined. New colonies were planted, the Federation expanded. The Klingons and Romulans were very afraid, and through negotiations managed to tie up the fleetwide deployment of Transwarp for several years.

Fast forward, after Star Trek Six... Transwarp again becomes useable after negotiatons with the Romulans and Klingons. New ships are built to use the drive... the Federation expands, plants colonies and all is well... until a passing Borg Scout detects the Transwarp signiture. It whistles up its big brother, a sphere... and it sucks up a couple Federation and Romulan outposts... A huge Romulan and Federation fleet meet above Tomed both accussing the other side of being the agressor. Attracted by the energy signitures the Sphere arrives and starts taking "samples..." A huge battle ensues and when it's all said and done the damage to the Romulan fleet is crippling. They withdraw from view for several decades while they rebuild and rearm... meanwhile the Federation quickly withdraws the Transwarp drive from operation. This results in several colony worlds being cut off/abandoned for years until the Federation can expand in those directions again using conventional warp drive.

The information about the giant sphere crewed by a Bio Mechanical Race smillar if not identical to the fragmented remains found on Earth... that sets off alarm-bells high up and the information is classified to the extreme. It's not until a chance encounter years later by the Enterprise-D do people suddenly get concerned about the Borg... but by then it's too late and the Borg nearly steamroller thier way to Earth.

*shrug* Ties everything together, patches a few plotholes and keeps the Raging Fanboys in my game group happy.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Since Borg technology requires a transwarp conduit to operate, it's doubtful to be derivative Borg technology.

Now, we have Excelsior's helmsman saying "all warp factors available through transwarp drive." He either means "all warp factors, including transwarp drive" or "transwarp drive can achieve all warp factors." If it's the former case, then transwarp drive really might be the Borg equivalent, but it still requires the presence of a transwarp conduit to function properly. So as a distinct drive system, I'd be inclined to think it works some other way, probably utilizing the "wormhole effect" we saw in TMP, intentionally throwing the engines out of balance to push the ship into a kind of unstable wormhole it can exit from at any point along a straight line. I can see why there might be problems with this drive system in principal, so I lean towards "transwarp can hit all factors" interpretation.

Is it possible that "The Great Experiment" was, in fact, the mounting of a transwarp drive on Excelsior? In the same way that, say, an F-22 Raptor would be considered "a great experiment" if someone equipped it with an exoatmospheric jet engine. Surely this would allow jet fighters to launch in sub-orbital flights, and the plane might even have special modifications to make this feasible, but there's nothing fundamentally revolutionary about a rocket engine, only this application of it.

I'd be willing to bet that "transwarp" is the trade name for the drive system used to propel photon torpedoes and large probes. Applying it to a Starship seems like a stupid idea to Scotty (who's too old to think of it as anything but a gimmick) and a genius idea to Sulu (who's too young to know better). In the end, the technology probably worked, since as per TUC the Excelsior is demonstrably faster than the Enterprise-A, whose maximum warp factor in the old scale is close to warp 9.

 

[Myasishchev]

Tuvok's dad, but yeah. And, FWIW, the Stargazer was originally going to be a Constitution class ship herself for 'The Battle' even though the study model for the ready room had already been built to represent that ship.

Ah, I remember that. They had to overdub Geordi's line, iirc. That's why the chose the name "Constellation."

During the war, I always wanted to see some reactivated Constitutions used as really large photon torpedoes.

I always suggested he ended up a deck jockey afterward, one way or the other. Personally, I say he didn't last much longer before retiring. Given Starfleet's propensity towards crazy Admirals, he may well have been promoted. Perhaps he was only a career test captain anyway? I wouldn't want to serve on his ship.

I would. His mustache had authority.

Thinking about it, Admiral Styles would have been a fun addition to TFF or TUC.

Me too, but the same kind of crap has happened and still happens with the real-world military.

Well, I suppose that's the case. An acquaintance of mine formerly of the USN has a sad story about the Osprey.

Entirely possible! Or, since the Ambassador was launched in, what, 2315, maybe it was to coincide with that new design?

A palpable possibility.

Here's something that gets me about the new warp scale though is that it isn't consistent with the old one. Now we can likely assume that "warp factor" is, as depicted in the TNGTM, a power threshold, the most efficient points on the scale, and not really a speed. If it's a function of warp itself, should they not have realized that certain non-integer warps were more efficient than what their mathematical models had predicted? Perhaps it's a materials difference in the warp coils, not a fundamental property of warp itself.

I thnk that's a valid interpretation as well, and a rather interesting one. Not being a warp physicist, do I really have any authority to assert my view over anyone elses. (I don't want you to think I'm trampling your turf or anything.)

Well, it seems like they fear crashing into things despite being at warp (hence the navigational deflector, hence trying to avoid Gothos when Trelane keeps putting it in their way), which means that it's not totally outside the universe and may interact with objects in our universe. Even if the infinite velocity = collapsing the universe idea is dismissed as speculative, unless there's some property we don't know about that diminishes the interactivity of the object (which is possible, given what we know about interphasic stuff, but that might be different), true warp 10 would plow the mass of the vessel through innumerable solid objects.

I just think that having it, in essence, being a disguised jump drive, makes more sense, if we are to take 'Threshold' and the definition of warp ten into account, which I do because I don't like the slippery slope of picking and choosing episodes to ignore. (Moments, perhaps, elements, perhaps, but episodes no.) If not, the field is clear.

Threshold is hard to ignore. Take that for what you will. Perhaps Tom merely innocently misrepresented the capabilities of his new warp drive?

Oh, agreed. I think naturally as ships become better able to achieve high warp speeds in the Trekverse, it would be logical to have more charted 'steps' between 9 and infinity. Not the old system literally, of course, but something more like it.

After the Delta Flyer's successful flight (technically it was successful), a new scale is needed.

 

[Praetor]

Since Borg technology requires a transwarp conduit to operate, it's doubtful to be derivative Borg technology.

Although Plecostamus's idea is intriuging, I think I'd like to just assume that 'transwarp' refers to a type of warp that enters another dimension entirely to achieve its ability, whereas 'normal' warp just pushes and pulls space around it.

Now, we have Excelsior's helmsman saying "all warp factors available through transwarp drive." He either means "all warp factors, including transwarp drive" or "transwarp drive can achieve all warp factors." If it's the former case, then transwarp drive really might be the Borg equivalent, but it still requires the presence of a transwarp conduit to function properly. So as a distinct drive system, I'd be inclined to think it works some other way, probably utilizing the "wormhole effect" we saw in TMP, intentionally throwing the engines out of balance to push the ship into a kind of unstable wormhole it can exit from at any point along a straight line. I can see why there might be problems with this drive system in principal, so I lean towards "transwarp can hit all factors" interpretation.

Ditto.

Is it possible that "The Great Experiment" was, in fact, the mounting of a transwarp drive on Excelsior? In the same way that, say, an F-22 Raptor would be considered "a great experiment" if someone equipped it with an exoatmospheric jet engine. Surely this would allow jet fighters to launch in sub-orbital flights, and the plane might even have special modifications to make this feasible, but there's nothing fundamentally revolutionary about a rocket engine, only this application of it.

I'd be willing to bet that "transwarp" is the trade name for the drive system used to propel photon torpedoes and large probes. Applying it to a Starship seems like a stupid idea to Scotty (who's too old to think of it as anything but a gimmick) and a genius idea to Sulu (who's too young to know better). In the end, the technology probably worked, since as per TUC the Excelsior is demonstrably faster than the Enterprise-A, whose maximum warp factor in the old scale is close to warp 9.

An intriguing idea, although for my quatloos I've always guessed that the whole ship was one big experiment, transwarp being one part of that.

Tuvok's dad, but yeah. And, FWIW, the Stargazer was originally going to be a Constitution class ship herself for 'The Battle' even though the study model for the ready room had already been built to represent that ship.

Ah, I remember that. They had to overdub Geordi's line, iirc. That's why the chose the name "Constellation."

During the war, I always wanted to see some reactivated Constitutions used as really large photon torpedoes.

Heh, that would have been nice. Technically, the blown up 1701 was used in the battle scene from 'Best of Both Worlds' so we may assume at least one Connie there, and that same wreckage was used to represent the crashed Olympia in DS9's 'The Sound of Her Voice.' So there's two, at least.

(I like to think that the First Khitomer Accord forced Starfleet to cut back their ships to a certain tonnage/weaponry, so they gradually (say bey 2315) decommissioned the numerous Connies in favor of the more powerful Excelsiors, scrapping most and putting some in reserve. The ones in reserve could have then been reactivated after relations with the Klingons cooled down in the 24th century and the accords were presumably amended.

I always suggested he ended up a deck jockey afterward, one way or the other. Personally, I say he didn't last much longer before retiring. Given Starfleet's propensity towards crazy Admirals, he may well have been promoted. Perhaps he was only a career test captain anyway? I wouldn't want to serve on his ship.

I would. His mustache had authority.

Thinking about it, Admiral Styles would have been a fun addition to TFF or TUC.

That's very true!

Me too, but the same kind of crap has happened and still happens with the real-world military.

Well, I suppose that's the case. An acquaintance of mine formerly of the USN has a sad story about the Osprey.

That was actually the one I was thinking of the most!

Entirely possible! Or, since the Ambassador was launched in, what, 2315, maybe it was to coincide with that new design?

A palpable possibility.

Here's something that gets me about the new warp scale though is that it isn't consistent with the old one. Now we can likely assume that "warp factor" is, as depicted in the TNGTM, a power threshold, the most efficient points on the scale, and not really a speed. If it's a function of warp itself, should they not have realized that certain non-integer warps were more efficient than what their mathematical models had predicted? Perhaps it's a materials difference in the warp coils, not a fundamental property of warp itself.

You seem to have nicely resolved that one yourself. Good job!

I thnk that's a valid interpretation as well, and a rather interesting one. Not being a warp physicist, do I really have any authority to assert my view over anyone elses. (I don't want you to think I'm trampling your turf or anything.)

Well, it seems like they fear crashing into things despite being at warp (hence the navigational deflector, hence trying to avoid Gothos when Trelane keeps putting it in their way), which means that it's not totally outside the universe and may interact with objects in our universe. Even if the infinite velocity = collapsing the universe idea is dismissed as speculative, unless there's some property we don't know about that diminishes the interactivity of the object (which is possible, given what we know about interphasic stuff, but that might be different), true warp 10 would plow the mass of the vessel through innumerable solid objects.

That's true, and something to ponder further.

I just think that having it, in essence, being a disguised jump drive, makes more sense, if we are to take 'Threshold' and the definition of warp ten into account, which I do because I don't like the slippery slope of picking and choosing episodes to ignore. (Moments, perhaps, elements, perhaps, but episodes no.) If not, the field is clear.

Threshold is hard to ignore. Take that for what you will. Perhaps Tom merely innocently misrepresented the capabilities of his new warp drive?

I'm sure he was over-ambitious as always.

Oh, agreed. I think naturally as ships become better able to achieve high warp speeds in the Trekverse, it would be logical to have more charted 'steps' between 9 and infinity. Not the old system literally, of course, but something more like it.

After the Delta Flyer's successful flight (technically it was successful), a new scale is needed.

And there's that whole Aventine thing in the new books...

 

[Plecostomus]

Well if we're going with the Excelsior transwarp being a controled wormhole effect, perhaps that's a good def of a Borg transwarp conduit. The Borg seem to be able to move at alarming speed without the conduits...

Idea: It's only after an area has been explored that they go through the effort of establishing a permenent conduit... the rest of the time they use the wormhole-effect/streight-line mode to get from point A to point B.

*shrug* My personal canon is going to differ from yours feel free to ignore it or add to it.

 

[Praetor]

Well if we're going with the Excelsior transwarp being a controlled wormhole effect, perhaps that's a good def of a Borg transwarp conduit. The Borg seem to be able to move at alarming speed without the conduits...

Idea: It's only after an area has been explored that they go through the effort of establishing a permanent conduit... the rest of the time they use the wormhole-effect/straight-line mode to get from point A to point B.

*shrug* My personal canon is going to differ from yours feel free to ignore it or add to it.

That seems like a pretty plausible explanation, and would help explain why two seemingly dissimilar technologies would be called the same thing.

 

[Unicron]

I've liked to believe that the Borg system operates on somewhat similar principles, chiefly something faster and more efficient than conventional warp. I recall Seven saying in one ep that the Borg have to project a structural integrity field ahead of their vessel while in transwarp, to protect it from the increased stresses. Or something along those lines.