I remain skeptical that Obi-Wan could know this.
Regardless, their is subtext, and then there is reaching text. It doesn't work for me on a number of levels. And, that makes me annoyed as Ewan McGregor is the high point of the PT for me.
Ewan McGregor Is "Really Happy" About the Recent Embrace of the Prequels
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Regardless, their is subtext, and then there is reaching text. It doesn't work for me on a number of levels. And, that makes me annoyed as Ewan McGregor is the high point of the PT for me.
How so? The whole "knocking him in a lava pit and leaving him for dead" bit came from Return of the Jedi's development, even though it never made the final script. The only thing the PT really added to the Obi-Wan/Anakin relationship outlined in the OT was the aforementioned blind eye towards his romantic life (and even that is only implicit subtext.)
Name one person that knew Anakin better than Obi-Wan.
I said "person" not "foul vobcabulatored mechanical house pet"!R2D2
As incredible as that was, for me, nothing beats the mind-blowing realization that the song played during the Naboo victory celebration was in fact the Emperor's theme from ROTJ.
I must have missed the part of the ROJT script were Obi-Wan watches him burn and decides not to kill him. Then the deliberate walking away and taking his brother's weapon.
To me, that's far worse.
Padme. Palpatine.
But, the point is, how would Obi-Wan know that specific bit of information that "Hey, your dad would have wanted you to have his lightsaber." That is very specific bit of knowledge.
I'm not disagreeing on that part, less I come across that I am. It's Obi-Wan seeing his brother burning and leaving him to do so. That bothers me, a whole lot.
To kind of expand upon my POV is the fact that I read a lot of ancillary and novel material, and this is one place where the ROTS novel did more of a disservice to my viewpoint, which is rare, as I consider the ROTS novel to among the best written of the adaptations for the PT. But, in the novel, Obi-Wan is regarded as the "consummate Jedi" only to be showcased that Obi-Wan was not "feeling merciful" watching Anakin burn.
Now, I know that individuals can carry contradictory ideas at the same time. But, it was a frustrating line to read and to see presented when the Jedi are to be heroes, and the audience is expected to celebrate their return.
The PT did an OK job introducing shades of great, but, I think they tore down the Jedi and Obi-Wan in particular too much to make their point.
As I stated earlier, to me there is no "Certain point of view" spin that makes that line more plausible. It's a flat out lie for the sake of it, either owing to Obi-Wan's guilt, or pain, but not for the benefit of Luke.
As I have stated this is my own personal POV on Obi-Wan and how he ends up from the PT to the OT. In my opinion, not well.
To me, though, Obi-Wan's treatment of Anakin on Mustafar is a mixture of fear and what he probably views as a mercy killing of somebody he loved. He was already aware that his former Padawan had murdered scores of Jedi and even Younglings and had sworn his allegiance to the Sith Master, turning to the Dark Side. He'd already shown a capacity for merciless, savage killing of people with whom he'd served for years. He was a danger to the Republic at that point and no matter how much Obi-Wan loved Anakin as his friend and a virtual brother he knew he had to stop him even if it meant killing him outright or leaving him to burn to death.
I view it as watching a loved one on their deathbed and you pulling the plug to spare them any further pain. You might have had vicious fights and disagreements with said loved one and even come to blows, but you don't want to see them in agonizing pain. He saw what Anakin had become and the fact that he Force-choked his own wife into unconsciousness after slaughtering untold numbers of Jedi and Separatist leaders and then followed that up by trying to kill his friend and former Master meant that he had to take extreme measures. As Yoda said inside the Jedi Temple before Obi-Wan left to go find Anakin, his apprentice was no longer Anakin Skywalker. He'd been consumed by the Dark Side and was now Darth Vader.
To quote Obi-Wan himself mere moments before he activated his lightsaber: "I will do what I must."
I view it as watching a loved one on their deathbed and you pulling the plug to spare them any further pain. You might have had vicious fights and disagreements with said loved one and even come to blows, but you don't want to see them in agonizing pain. He saw what Anakin had become and the fact that he Force-choked his own wife into unconsciousness after slaughtering untold numbers of Jedi and Separatist leaders and then followed that up by trying to kill his friend and former Master meant that he had to take extreme measures. As Yoda said inside the Jedi Temple before Obi-Wan left to go find Anakin, his apprentice was no longer Anakin Skywalker. He'd been consumed by the Dark Side and was now Darth Vader.
To quote Obi-Wan himself mere moments before he activated his lightsaber: "I will do what I must."
Apparently you also missed the part where I specifically said "...even though it never made the final script."
And that crazed, screaming, bile spitting burnt thing wasn't his brother, it was Darth Vader. Anakin was already dead and as far as Kenobi was concerted, Vader would be too soon enough.
That aside, as a rule Jedi are not in the habit of finishing people off, even enemies, once they're no longer a threat.
Padme and Anakin saw each other once for a few days, then nothing for a full decade. Rushed into marriage after reuniting for what couldn't have been much more than a week, then spent the next three years only stealing odd moments together. Hell, they saw each other so infrequently that last year that the first opportunity Padme had to tell Anakin she was pregnant was when she was already almost due. Also, she's dead and hardly in a position to weigh in with Luke.
Palpatine may very well have known Anakin better than he knew himself in some ways, but these aspects aren't what interested him.
No, I saw it. I just don't recall him walking away as Anakin burns knowing he was still alive. I had not read that in my review of ROTJ BTS material.
Ok, that's fine. Doesn't change my point that I am skeptical that Obi-Wan would not know that Anakin wanted Luke to have his lightsaber when he was old enough. That line is very jarring in ANH in light of ROTS.
That's my only point on the matter. But, I appreciate the analysis of Obi-Wan and Anakin's relationship.
How else did you picture that going down? Have him save Anakin? Finish him off? The former is narrative impossible and the latter is totally out of character. Besides, we knew from the OT that he burned; it was obvious from the make up design alone.
As for where the idea for Vader needing the mask because Obi-Wan knocked him into a lava pit came from, Lucas seemed to have it in mind at least as early as this interview he gave to Rolling Stone in 1977: -
Plus of course the concept of a lava planet being associated with Vader in an actual movie goes back as far as the very earliest pre-production phase of tESB before those scenes were dropped. It came up again later in RotJ's development, this time as a subterranean lava lake as the location of the Emperor's throne room on Had Abbadon. Indeed, at one point in the drafting process, stumbling into lava would have been how Vader lost his hand and sabre, instead of Luke cutting it off as he did in the final movie, and the Emperor himself was going to be killed by being thrown into it instead of down the reactor shaft. Ultimately it was dropped because despite being compelling from an aesthetic POV, it was hard to justify the logic and just having it there telegraphed the end of the movie because *of course* the bad guy is going to end up in there.
The concept even made it into the James Kahn RotJ novelization, presumably from notes provided by Lucas: -
It's a *tiny* embellishment and is in essence very true. Obi-Wan knows Anakin, so of course he would want his son to inherit is legacy.
In hindsight, had this whole thing been planned out from start to finish then perhaps that line would be different, perhaps not. Plans change. Better ideas come along and sometime minor details must be overlooked to keep the narrative on track.
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I appreciate your detailed explanation. I was quite aware but you wrote it up so nicely
As with so many things, it is minor to some, but irritating to others. In this particular instance, it doesn't work for me based upon events as presented in the PT. I do not think that Anakin and Obi-Wan discussed such familial aspirations, as such things did not seem to be topics of conversation for them. Maybe I'm wrong but the it just doesn't fit for me.
I wish I could articulate it better but I'm going to step away as I'm feeling a bit cornered over a comment. So, I'll take a breather
It is? I did not know that.
I believe that back then (ca 2003-2005) McGregor himself thought the prequels had too much CGI, or at least he complained it was really difficult to act in that bluescreen/greenscreen environment. Cool that he acknowledges a lot of viewers did like the prequels, I don't think they were just made for kids (that's a bit of a copout) or disliking them is just cynicism but yeah especially the first one was more for kids and would likely be more accepted by them.
He could have explained it similarly to how he ended up doing so, just that he was seduced by the Dark Side and is now very twisted, the Dark Side warps and controls you (even in the first film he does admit Vader was his apprentice who went bad and killed his comrades). Although yeah, then Luke probably would try to save him and, not having any training, fail.
It's not clear how much Anakin ever really believed in and stood for the Jedi ideals, probably less than Obi-Wan thought or wishfully thought, and Luke would have to at some point confront Vader and so learn the truth.
He could have explained it similarly to how he ended up doing so, just that he was seduced by the Dark Side and is now very twisted, the Dark Side warps and controls you (even in the first film he does admit Vader was his apprentice who went bad and killed his comrades). Although yeah, then Luke probably would try to save him and, not having any training, fail.
It's not clear how much Anakin ever really believed in and stood for the Jedi ideals, probably less than Obi-Wan thought or wishfully thought, and Luke would have to at some point confront Vader and so learn the truth.
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