Evolution of music by public choice.

[trekkiedane]

^Lady Gaga, Madonna before her, Bowie before her. Maybe that's what lasting pop-success is.

There's bound to be a bit more to it, but I'll accept that some humans possess an uncanny ability to do quantum leaps (mutation) while 'just' making a new 'generation' of pop-music (selection) where others merely reiterate (regurgitate?) already known tunes.

Yeah, I was being a little tongue-in-cheek there, but also a little serious. There was a study done a few years ago of the fashion industry which relates to this idea. They basically looked at whether fashion trends were driven from the "top down" -- ie designers and big fashion business directing trends, or from the "bottom up" -- the public direct the trends and the industry responds. Although at first it seems that fashion must be a top down industry, the researchers actually found that it was profoundly bottom up. This fits in well with the theory of memetics, and, while anecdotal evidence doesn't count in the realm of science, it does fit in well with my own experiences. I remember about ten years ago, just before leggings took off in trendiness again, thinking how I wished I could find a pair of leggings to wear under a minidress...and what do you know, the very next season leggings reappeared on the runway. I've had this experience several times with fashion...thinking how much I'd like to revisit a particular trend, and then finding that just a year or two later, the trend reappears.

So true, when something becomes prêt-à-porter it's probably been street somewhere for a while.


I don't know much about the cultural science behind 'the incest taboo', but doesn't history show how bad it can go when closely related people have offspring together? -afaik the ruthlessness of Cleopatra is attributed to inbreeding...

 

[thestrangequark]

^And the teeth of Prince Charles.

^Well, if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck.

You are still missing the point. This is a model. A simulation. No one is saying that in the real world memetics is based on a vote. Read about the subject before you try to debate it. You're only making yourself sound silly.

Yep, I am totally silly, that's why I am talking about the subject while you are just throwing around insults.

Of course it is just a model. But a model based on standard economics approach like "people have preferences and vote for cultural outcomes", set in a dynamic game where the cultural outcomes themselves change and then people vote again and so on is dubious because, as I tried to illustrate via my incest taboo example, many cultural outcomes do not fit this model.

As criticism of this specific experiment this is completely valid, and the same thing actually came to my mind. Along with concerns that people in the evolution denial camp could grasp onto something like this as evidence that evolution needs conscious, or at least intelligent guidance. The thing is, you weren't just criticizing this one experiment, you threw out the entire field. That is what I take issue with.
The field is indeed controversial, and I'll not deny that, but you seem so concerned about the spirit of science, and discarding an entire area of research before it has had the chance to prove its worth (or worthlessness), is completely unscientific. And to think you know better than everyone who is interested in the development of this field (as evidenced by your complete dismissiveness of it) is stupid and arrogant. You may not be stupid and arrogant, but that specific action is.

 

[horatio83]

I do not know the field at all and all I did were two simple things, methodological criticism plus asking for its output. You did not really deal with the former and neither provided the latter, now basically admitting that memetics has not provided any insights yet. Or perhaps it actually has and you are just too embarrassed to admit that you have not actually read the books you claim to know when you told me to educate myself.

By the way, I am all for doing funky and unorthodox stuff in science and I certainly do not want the folks who engage in memetics to stop. But I neither think that one gets anywhere without ruthless criticism. That's one simple lesson I learned from my own discipline.

 

[thestrangequark]

^What you did was dismiss the entire field out of hand, and now you've admitted that you did so when you "do not know the field at all." That's pretty damning. And I did address your questions. 1. The field is too young to understand whether or not it will yield fruition. 2. I directed you to where you can find the latter. And I would happily discuss in detail both the books I mentioned, as I have indeed read them. I've not read Susan Blackmore, though, and never claimed to have, though I know she's written on the subject, which is why I named her.
Again, please educate yourself before you attempt to debate. At the very least, read the wiki page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memetics

 

[Robert Maxwell]

I like how this thread started off being about something cool and instead became some weird ideological pissing match between horatio and tsq. Can't we all just meme along?

 

[thestrangequark]

^I just don't like when people make judgements out of ignorance is all. Sorry! But don't worry, I've already tired of arguing with him (it's like talking to a wall).

We can get back to the fun and interesting science of memetics!

 

[trekkiedane]

I like how this thread started off being about something cool and instead became some weird ideological pissing match between horatio and tsq. Can't we all just meme along?

Ah! -the pleasures of being on-line

ETA:
yeah, isn't it just cool

 

[thestrangequark]

^It hurts my eyes!

 

[Zulu Romeo]

^Love the new Av, Zion!

Thanks.

Hehe

 

[trekkiedane]

^It hurts my eyes!

Hehe

I'd hazard the guess that heavy use of drugs is involved in the creation of many a (visual internet-) meme not only the Omsk Crow!

 

[{ Emilia }]

^I just don't like when people make judgements out of ignorance is all.

That reads like: "Not my fault the other person is an idiot". Good way to de-escalate!



The condescending tone was there on both sides. I'm not really interested in entering the pissing match but come on... he asks for more info about memetics and you link wikipedia. No offense, but I can't say either of you looked particularly good there.

The thread once had potential, though. It's a shame.

Group hugs?

 

[thestrangequark]

^I just don't like when people make judgements out of ignorance is all.

That reads like: "Not my fault the other person is an idiot".



The condescending tone was there on both sides. I'm not really interested in entering the pissing match but come on... he asks for more info about memetics and you link wikipedia. Can't say either of you looked particularly good there.

The thread once had potential, though. It's a shame.

Group hugs?

It's not how it was intended. And frankly, it's a bit hypocritical to accuse someone of being condescending right after using the eyerolly smiley under their post!

I like debating, I'll take as much credit/fault for the discussion as is deserved. No one's being forced to read it. I had already moved on too.

 

[trekkiedane]

Group hugs?

Not really sure if we need a group hug...

...or the angry villagers:

 

[thestrangequark]

^That first one to me looks like someone stretching out a candy necklace!

 

[{ Emilia }]

eyerolly smiley

You just assume condescension because I'm European and we're known for not taking Americans seriously.

It's a curse.

 

[trekkiedane]

eyerolly smiley

You just assume condescension because I'm European and we're known for not taking Americans seriously.

It's a curse.

PLEEEEASE may I use that as my new sig?


(I had great difficulty keeping my drink in my mouth when I read it -and it's even the (semi)good gin I used!)

 

[thestrangequark]

eyerolly smiley

You just assume condescension because I'm European and we're known for not taking Americans seriously.

It's a curse.

What else does rolling one's eyes convey if not condescension?

...and what else do you call making a judgement about a field while admitting that you have no knowledge of the field but a judgement out of ignorance?

 

[trekkiedane]

What else does rolling one's eyes convey if not condescension?

Not to get myself in-between you two (of course there's a 'but' coming: ) but emoticons are usually somewhat over-the-top... You'd not expect someone who posted an ROFL-emoticon to have actually been rolling on the floor laughing...

 

[{ Emilia }]

eyerolly smiley

You just assume condescension because I'm European and we're known for not taking Americans seriously.

It's a curse.

PLEEEEASE may I use that as my new sig?


(I had great difficulty keeping my drink in my mouth when I read it -and it's even the (semi)good gin I used!)

Go ahead!

eyerolly smiley

You just assume condescension because I'm European and we're known for not taking Americans seriously.

It's a curse.

What else does rolling one's eyes convey if not condescension?

I rolled my eyes in real life when I read your post because I saw that line as a pathetic attempt to get another jibe in. It's how it came across to me.
No need to be so defensive. I have no beef with you.

Also there's a 12-weeks-old Birma kitten jumping on my keyboard so this post might contain random smileys and letters.

 

[thestrangequark]

^I was just genuinely curious. It really wasn't meant as a condescending jibe, but a genuine statement of what I perceived to have happened. What else do you call making a judgement about a field while admitting that you have absolutely no knowledge of the field (he said exactly that) but a judgement out of ignorance? I don't want to be defensive, but I don't know what else one would call it.