Evidence of SNW being a possible alternate timeline from TOS

[Yistaan]

Memory Alpha may not be canon but if a director, studio, etc. work together to produce a new cut and release it on home media, they are effectively saying that this version is our intended definitive version.

If the director and studio isn't arbiters of canon, then who is? To lock works into theatrical releases that are often rushed and have errors in them, or heavily edited to fit theater runtime requirements, that are increasingly further adjusted in home video releases (Peter Jackson's extended Tolkien film cuts are almost entirely based on this) is to force a director to have a theatrical run forever enshrined as "canon" even if that's neither the director's nor the studio's intention but leaving it up to the marketing circumstances of a theatrical release. That's just absurd.

Sure, there are some directors who go overboard and just keep on changing their films after the fact (I'm looking at you George Lucas) but the general pop culture consensus is that the most recent iteration of a filmed work is canon, regardless of whether it was released in a theater or not. This forum is literally the first where I've ever heard otherwise.

What's next? TNG-remastered isn't canon because they never aired on broadcast television?

 

[Vagabond Elf]

To be fair, as late as Season 3 of TOS Kirk didn't recognize the name of Surak.

At that point humans had known about and intermingled with Vulcans for over 200 years. You'd think the name Surak would at bare minimum be recognizable as the Vulcan George Washington or Buddha. Either Kirk sucked at Federation history in his Academy classes or, you know, episodic television writing.

I admit, these days I just take it as proof that the American identity survived into Kirk's time.

Seriously, though, I've had a shocking number of conversations with Americans who didn't know that most countries feel WW2 started in 1939. People from a socially dominant group tend not to know about the details of other groups, and Earth clearly dominates Kirk's Federation - not in a militaristic conquest way, but in an idealised America makes everything cheaper and fairer and more enthusiastic way. So it doesn't surprise me that Kirk doesn't know details about Vulcan.

Heck, even the choice here of "Vulcan George Washington" instead of, I dunno, Vulcan Lenin or Vulcan Robespierre is leaning into my point.

 

[Vagabond Elf]

Sure, there are some directors who go overboard and just keep on changing their films after the fact (I'm looking at you George Lucas) but the general pop culture consensus is that the most recent iteration of a filmed work is canon, regardless of whether it was released in a theater or not. This forum is literally the first where I've ever heard otherwise.

And yet, Star Wars fans continue to jump through massive hoops in order to explain why R4-P17 has a bullet-dome head instead of a lampshade-cone head, instead of just accepting that "the R number defines the shape of the head" was wrong and letting canon update.

People don't like changes to their established stories.

 

[Firebird]

Memory Alpha may not be canon but if a director, studio, etc. work together to produce a new cut and release it on home media, they are effectively saying that this version is our intended definitive version.

This completely misses the point.

 

[fireproof78]

the director and studio isn't arbiters of canon, then who is?

The property owner.

 

[Tuskin38]

I still remember when they went through that hissy fit over denying Adira's non-binary gender when the character premiered on Discovery.

It was because it wasn't stated in any episode yet. People were trying to add in-universe info to the wiki before the episode where Adira comes out even aired.

Unlike Wookieepedia or other fiction wikis, Memory-Alpha doesn't add in-universe info to pages until the episode/movie or whatever the info is in airs. That is what the 'hissy fit' was over, not Adira's identity specifically, they remove any future info added.

Yes, one admin did make it personal, but they were punished.

 

[Turtletrekker]

It was because it wasn't stated in any episode yet. People were trying to add in-universe info to the wiki before the episode where Adira comes out even aired.

Unlike Wookieepedia or other fiction wikis, Memory-Alpha doesn't add in-universe info to pages until the episode/movie or whatever the info is in airs. That is what the 'hissy fit' was over, not Adira's identity specifically, they remove any future info added.

Yes, one admin did make it personal, but they were punished.

Well, even if it hadn't been explicitly stated in the episode, it was explicitly stated in all of the promotional materials describing the character. Sometimes you just have to take things as a given.

 

[Yistaan]

This completely misses the point.

If the owner CBS/Paramount is selling directors' cut etc. without some disclaimer that they're not canon (as was done with the Very Short Treks etc.) that's enough of a point for me.

 

[The Wormhole]

It was because it wasn't stated in any episode yet. People were trying to add in-universe info to the wiki before the episode where Adira comes out even aired.

No, actually. As per our thread on the matter (which includes an MA contributor trying to defend the decision) the whole controversy began the day after Disco's third season ended, when Adira's non-binary gender was well and firmly canonically established/. MA's argument was just because Adira uses they/them pronouns, that does not canonically mean they are non-binary. The whole thing was, in a best case scenario canon literalism taken to an extreme degree and and a worst case bald faced bigotry.

Indeed, MA's "strictly canonical only" policy has only ever been enforced in regards to Adira's gender and the name Kelvin Timeline (they refuse to call it that since that term was never used onscreen). This despite the fact they have always referred to the Mirror Universe by that name even before it was first used onscreen in 2019, or the various characters or ship classes whose name has never been used onscreen, most notably the character of Joel Randolph from TVH, where his name only comes from the novelization (oh how I'd love to hear their rationalization for why they allow something from a novel under a "Strictly canonical only" policy). Their decision to refuse to acknowledge the Kelvin Timeline name undoubtedly scored them points with the anti-Abrams gatekeepers. The people who their decision not to acknowldge Adira's gender appealed to absolutely should not be catered to at all.

 

[BillJ]

If the owner CBS/Paramount is selling directors' cut etc. without some disclaimer that they're not canon (as was done with the Very Short Treks etc.) that's enough of a point for me.

This is insane. I don't need a disclaimer telling me what is and isn't canon. The weird fixation with canon is what is sinking the franchise, IMO.

 

[Yistaan]

I didn't even start this particular canon discussion. I recall someone said that TMP canonized that Vulcan had a moon, and I said it doesn't in the latest cut, and then I was told that the latest cut wasn't canon. Take it up with them.

 

[Firebird]

No, actually. As per our thread on the matter (which includes an MA contributor trying to defend the decision) the whole controversy began the day after Disco's third season ended, when Adira's non-binary gender was well and firmly canonically established/. MA's argument was just because Adira uses they/them pronouns, that does not canonically mean they are non-binary. The whole thing was, in a best case scenario canon literalism taken to an extreme degree and and a worst case bald faced bigotry.

Indeed, MA's "strictly canonical only" policy has only ever been enforced in regards to Adira's gender and the name Kelvin Timeline (they refuse to call it that since that term was never used onscreen). This despite the fact they have always referred to the Mirror Universe by that name even before it was first used onscreen in 2019, or the various characters or ship classes whose name has never been used onscreen, most notably the character of Joel Randolph from TVH, where his name only comes from the novelization (oh how I'd love to hear their rationalization for why they allow something from a novel under a "Strictly canonical only" policy). Their decision to refuse to acknowledge the Kelvin Timeline name undoubtedly scored them points with the anti-Abrams gatekeepers. The people who their decision not to acknowldge Adira's gender appealed to absolutely should not be catered to at all.

There's a lot of anti-new Trek sentiments through several pages on MA. Reading through the entries on Discovery's first couple seasons is so utterly slanted against the series to the point of ridiculousness. Is there some reason the average Trek fan gives that much of a shit what RMB thought of the series?

 

[BillJ]

I didn't even start this particular canon discussion. I recall someone said that TMP canonized that Vulcan had a moon, and I said it doesn't in the latest cut, and then I was told that the latest cut wasn't canon. Take it up with them.

Don't take me too seriously. It is 100 F here and I'm in an unpleasant mood because of it.

But, it seems like we've gotten to the point that the cart is dragging the horse. Canon isn't the end-all, be-all of storytelling. That it has become that points to a serious flaw in the franchise.

Like I've said numerous times since 2017, they should've said that they were there to tell the best stories possible and that fandom could sort out how it all fits together.

 

[Turtletrekker]

There's a lot of anti-new Trek sentiments through several pages on MA. Reading through the entries on Discovery's first couple seasons is so utterly slanted against the series to the point of ridiculousness. Is there some reason the average Trek fan gives that much of a shit what RMB thought of the series?

RMB is the last person whose opinion on Star Trek I would ever give a shit about.

 

[Set Harth]

The people who their decision not to acknowldge Adira's gender appealed to absolutely should not be catered to at all.

There's always takeout.

 

[fireproof78]

, it seems like we've gotten to the point that the cart is dragging the horse. Canon isn't the end-all, be-all of storytelling. That it has become that points to a serious flaw in the franchise.

Correct. The canon labeling misses the point of stories.

 

[Tuskin38]

it was explicitly stated in all of the promotional materials describing the character

Doesn’t matter, not until it’s stated on screen.

 

[Yistaan]

The problem when you ignore canon completely is what you'll get with DC's endless reboots, or even the Star Wars reboot etc. It always starts with good intentions. It always starts with wanting to tell the best stories. What happens is they end up telling the same stories as (Batman's origin or early years, Superman first meeting Lex, etc.) again and again because studios feel that certain stories are the best and need to be told again and again without regard to continuity. You get more repetition that way, not creativity. Even the SW movies after the buyout were all arguably worse variations of Legends stories already told (Darth Solo kid, Han Solo Trilogy, Dark Empire; only Rogue One and Andor both redid a Rebellion origin while bringing something meaningful to the table)

Even in Trek's reboot only Beyond seemingly had a completely fresh story; the first 2 felt like retreads to varying degrees.

 

[Tuskin38]

they refuse to call it that since that term was never used onscreen

Which is consistent with their sourcing policy.

The page is now titled ‘Narada incursion reality’ because Wesley calls it the Narada incursion in Prodigy.

the character of Joel Randolph from TVH, where his name only comes from the novelization

His name comes from the script, which memory-alpha considers a valid source.

 

[BillJ]

Even in Trek's reboot only Beyond seemingly had a completely fresh story; the first 2 felt like retreads to varying degrees.

This honestly doesn’t make any sense. The first reboot film told a story from a period of time we hadn’t experienced before, the second was absolutely nothing like TWOK, with the exception of one scene.

From my perspective, Beyond was the one that ended up feeling stale.