Erasing past continuity

[EJA]

Is there anyone else who reckons that doing away with such past events as the Dalek invasion in The Stolen Earth/Journey's End, and the Cybermen in Victorian London in The Next Doctor, is a bad move? It's been said in the new series that these events have been absorbed by the Time Crack and now never took place at all. But to me, this raises a lot of awkward questions. For one, Donna Noble becoming the Doctor-Donna, and the creation of the Meta-Crisis Tenth Doctor, only happened due to the events set in motion by Davros and the Daleks' attack on Earth....but if the invasion never took place, Donna never experienced that, so what happened to her?

Oh, and if the Crack retroactively wipes objects and people it absorbs from history, then that would mean that Davros and Dalek Caan never existed at all, negating their past appearances on the show.

 

[Count Zero]

That hasn't been said at all, as far as I know. Or do you mean fan speculation? From the show itself we only know that Amy doesn't remember the Dalek invasion for whatever reason. Sure, it's implied that this might have something to do with the crack, but we have no idea in what way and it might be a false lead, anyway.
We don't know how it will play out in the season finale. Maybe the Doctor will restore what the crack has absorbed or maybe he will use it to change history in some way.
I'm pretty sure Davros won't be wiped out of Who's continuity.

 

[EJA]

That hasn't been said at all, as far as I know. Or do you mean fan speculation? From the show itself we only know that Amy doesn't remember the Dalek invasion for whatever reason. Sure, it's implied that this might have something to do with the crack, but we have no idea in what way and it might be a false lead, anyway.

It is strongly implied to be the case though.

 

[Admiral_Young]

I don't know why people keep thinking that the spatial cracks are some kind of evil plot device that Moffat has come up with in order to totally undo previous continuity? As Count Zero pointed out only Amy so far is the only person we know of not to remember the attacks. The village that she's from (the fictional Leadsworth) was referred to by the Dream Lord as the village Time Forgot. This is just a mystery that has been slowly unwinding throughout this series and will no doubt be explained and revealed in "The Big Bang" or perhaps before that even. I don't think this is a retcon or a continuity erase.

 

[23skidoo]

Is there anyone else who reckons that doing away with such past events as the Dalek invasion in The Stolen Earth/Journey's End, and the Cybermen in Victorian London in The Next Doctor, is a bad move? It's been said in the new series that these events have been absorbed by the Time Crack and now never took place at all. But to me, this raises a lot of awkward questions. For one, Donna Noble becoming the Doctor-Donna, and the creation of the Meta-Crisis Tenth Doctor, only happened due to the events set in motion by Davros and the Daleks' attack on Earth....but if the invasion never took place, Donna never experienced that, so what happened to her?

Oh, and if the Crack retroactively wipes objects and people it absorbs from history, then that would mean that Davros and Dalek Caan never existed at all, negating their past appearances on the show.

I think you're overspeculating. I agree with others that so far nothing has been said about the Stolen Earth scenario being erased from history. Just from Amy's history. And for all we know the season will end with her going "Oh yeah, now I remember."

Don't accuse Moffat of doing something unless he actually does it.

I really have to wonder what's happened to fandom that they automatically assume showrunners have some sort of "agenda". RTD allegedly had a "gay agenda" just because he featured gay characters on occasion (although it was Moffat who introduced Captain Jack, remember). Now with Moffat it's either a "Scottish agenda" because he's Scottish and cast Karen Gillan and made a throwaway reference to Scottish independence in The Beast Below, or a "let's undo what RTD did" agenda.

The only agenda I see Moffat having is a "let's make a good show" agenda and maybe a "let's try an win me another Hugo Award" agenda, which is fine by me!

Alex

 

[Cyke101]

I posted this question in the Cold Blood thread but didn't get a response. It seems more fitting for this thread, so I'll repost it, and hopefully I'll have better luck:

Is it really a retcon if the story not only acknowledges the change, but also makes it the core of the mystery and the story arc? I always thought retcons were done in ways to try and reduce as much attention to the discrepancy as possible. But if a story addresses and focuses on the discrepancy, then is it REALLY an erasure?

 

[The Mirrorball Man]

Is it really a retcon if the story not only acknowledges the change, but also makes it the core of the mystery and the story arc?

Yes it is. "Retcon" just means "retroactive continuity", which is just a fancy world for the very simple literary technique consisting of adding previously unknown elements in a character's past. How that technique is used is irrelevant. Bread is still bread even if you don't eat it.

 

[Cyke101]

Is it really a retcon if the story not only acknowledges the change, but also makes it the core of the mystery and the story arc?

Yes it is. "Retcon" just means "retroactive continuity", which is just a fancy world for the very simple literary technique consisting of adding previously unknown elements in a character's past. How that technique is used is irrelevant. Bread is still bread even if you don't eat it.

Even if the show acknowledges/references what happened before the change as well?

 

[Winterwind]

There's no erasing the past. I watched it. I have some of it on DVD. It happened. Some of it I would like to forget but it still happened... in that fictional land of television.

 

[The Mirrorball Man]

Even if the show acknowledges/references what happened before the change as well?

It's just being clever about it, but it's still retroactive continuity.

 

[Jax]

I think the Doctor could be in the crack already and his universe is false and the crack is the walls falling down on this universe. I wonder if the Doctor could be jumping inbetween our universe and a fake one so two parts of time and space colliding like the Doc said in 1st episode.

 

[wamdue]

Is there anyone else who reckons that doing away with such past events as the Dalek invasion in The Stolen Earth/Journey's End, and the Cybermen in Victorian London in The Next Doctor, is a bad move?

im sorry but this is something ive never understood, when were those events wiped from the time line?

 

[The Mirrorball Man]

Is there anyone else who reckons that doing away with such past events as the Dalek invasion in The Stolen Earth/Journey's End, and the Cybermen in Victorian London in The Next Doctor, is a bad move?

I'm sorry but this is something I've never understood, when were those events wiped from the time line?

We don't know yet.

 

[Checkmate]

If anything gets erased or rewritten, it's only going to be limited to events in this season (ie, when the cracks first started appearing). Stop fucking panicking.

 

[captcalhoun]

hey, i know! why don't we all just wait and see what happens in the finale instead of speculating madly?

 

[Dac]

I honestly feel this is Moffats way of pulling a JJ. Instead of a flat out time travel/alternate universe thing - considering the way Who has been so flippant about its continuity, its required something so out there - in this case, the erasing of time itself - in order to provide a clean slate for new and interesting stories.

 

[Cyke101]

hey, i know! why don't we all just wait and see what happens in the finale instead of speculating madly?

Because then we'll have nothing to complain (pardon me, I meant "discuss") about...?

 

[EJA]

As Count Zero pointed out only Amy so far is the only person we know of not to remember the attacks. The village that she's from (the fictional Leadsworth) was referred to by the Dream Lord as the village Time Forgot.

I just took that to mean that Leadsworth is a sleepy, remote, boring, out-of-the-way place. Didn't see anything particularly meaningful or sinister in that statement.

 

[Cyke101]

As Count Zero pointed out only Amy so far is the only person we know of not to remember the attacks. The village that she's from (the fictional Leadsworth) was referred to by the Dream Lord as the village Time Forgot.

I just took that to mean that Leadsworth is a sleepy, remote, boring, out-of-the-way place. Didn't see anything particularly meaningful or sinister in that statement.

That's a valid point, but let's also remember that if the Dream Lord says it, it's really the Doctor saying it, and we all know how quick witted he is and his penchant for using flowery descriptors.

My own verdict: Wait till the finale to see which it is. I think at this point they both have an even chance.

 

[David cgc]

Is there anyone else who reckons that doing away with such past events as the Dalek invasion in The Stolen Earth/Journey's End, and the Cybermen in Victorian London in The Next Doctor, is a bad move?

im sorry but this is something ive never understood, when were those events wiped from the time line?

In "Victory of the Daleks," Amy had no memory of the Daleks, or of the 26 planets in the sky. In "Flesh and Stone," when the Doctor learned the crack completely erased whatever it touched from the past, he theorized that this, as well as the fact that no one ever remembered the events of "The Next Doctor" (which he commented on in that episode!) were a result of the cracks. He never proved it, though, and even if it did, the cracks could've erased anything to alter those events. A crack could've eaten the Lost Moon of Poosh, and the balance of the Reality Bomb was different so Davros couldn't use Earth as part of the amplifier any more. A crack could've swallowed the hulk of the Cyberking out of the Time Vortex and that's why no one wrote anything down about the giant robot.

It's folly to assume the only possible way Earth's part in "Journey's End" could've unhappened was if Davros and the Daleks didn't exist at all.