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"Equinox" was 'Da Bomb'!

I gotta go with Mr. Moore here -- the Janeway problem in Equinox II was bad writing. Also bad directing.

Look, I understand the point of the exercise, Janeway starts to look more like Ransom, he moves more toward her, yeah that's fine. Subtle stuff if done right. It just wasn't done right, she almost instantly becomes a Janeway parody, as if this were a reverse universe script. Chop off all their heads, I'll fire anybody who gets in my way. Queen of Hearts. Her about face at the end, OK Chakotay you were right about everything, was lacking in credibility too.

Perhaps Patrick Stewart could have carried it off, but not because he is a man. Because he might have the acting chops to overcome a bad script. Ditto for Helen Mirren.]

Bad writing? Those writers could never satisfy some, IMO. They go light and fluff (I'm being somewhat cynical here), it's not realistic. They finally take an objective look at what Voyager could of become and it's bad writing.

I do know, while I enjoyed large parts of Equinox, that Janeway's characterization in the second part was second-rate, soap opera stuff. I like Voyager but it had a lot of those moments, which is one reason why it didn't click with the general public as much as some other Trek shows did. People recognize quality, by and large. And Voyager wasn't really high quality, not by the standards of top prime-time shows

Second rate? Basically, Janeway was dead on; here she was trying to bring to justice a mass murdered, who had betrayed the uniform and endangered her crew and family. Not soap opera to me. :borg:

Put it this way; imagine you were trying to bring a man of Stalin or Hitler's kind to justice. You think you wouldn't be a bit zealous?

I dunno, it's not a bad 2 parter, but Janeway kind of annoyed me. She had made some very questionable choices over the course of the series, yet she comes off all high and mighty here, first preaching about principles and then determined to hunt down the evil Capt. Ramsey (?) for breaking his oath. I didn't buy it, and it's inconsistencies such as these which really bugged me with respect to VOY. One episode Janeway is the nutcase; the next she's Mrs. Starfleet.

I'll admikt, she's bent the rules a bit, but take note she never outright disregarded them, especially at such a magnitude as Ransom. I think overall she was consistent, with a few holes here or there.

And I didn't consider he so much a "nutcase" but as a zealous officer trying to bring down someone who threatened her family and committed genocide, who crossed the line in her desire to find Ransom.
 
Or the assumption that Janeway and Chakotay must be lovers. Obviously you can't have a man and a woman of roughly the same age just be friends. She *must* have a lover. She's not complete without one. :rolleyes:

You know, that was the same reaction I had when they started dropping the J/C hints in the show. Eventually the idea grew on me though.

I thought the hints were well done. There was a nice build up, as opposed to the Chakotay/Seven relationship. But I didn't read that much into it. The odds were against their ever reaching home, so a relationship seemed justifiable. Plus, I thought the sexual tension made for more interesting television.

Equinox was a reminder that Voyager was alone in desperate circumstances. The grittiness and moral ambiguity made more sense to me than episodes that were neatly resolved by following starfleet regulations.Was it bad writing that made Janeway lose it occasionally, or was she meant to have a buried dark streak? I tend to think the latter is true.

Like someone else said, I wish they had mentioned the Equinox crew in later episodes, but we'd already had enough crew integration episodes with the Maquie (sp?) by that point.
 
The moment any woman turns to a man and says: "You're such a good friend." that's the kiss of death in any persuit of a romantic interest. (Trust me ladies, it does work.:() That's when the flirtation between the two of them stopped. (Trust me, watch the show again and you'll see it.)

So how do you explain couples who start out as friends but then decide they belong together? It happens all the time...

Second rate? Basically, Janeway was dead on; here she was trying to bring to justice a mass murdered, who had betrayed the uniform and endangered her crew and family. Not soap opera to me. :borg:

Put it this way; imagine you were trying to bring a man of Stalin or Hitler's kind to justice. You think you wouldn't be a bit zealous?

Exactly! Add to that the fact that Ransom went through the same training she did, took the same oaths yet still not only committed genocide but left her and her crew to die then you're going to end up with one pissed off redhead!
 
It's that same stupid double standard thinking that Janeway & Seven must be lesbian lovers.

I gotta go with Mr. Moore here -- the Janeway problem in Equinox II was bad writing. Also bad directing.

Look, I understand the point of the exercise, Janeway starts to look more like Ransom, he moves more toward her, yeah that's fine. Subtle stuff if done right. It just wasn't done right, she almost instantly becomes a Janeway parody, as if this were a reverse universe script. Her aboutface at the end, OK Chakotay you were right about everything, was lacking in credibility too.

Perhaps Patrick Stewart could have carried it off, but not because he is a man. Because he might have the acting chops to overcome a bad script. Ditto for Helen Mirren.
Again, what was the differance in what Sisko did it over Janeway?

Eddington put Sisko's crew, station & lover at risk by his actions, even causing Kassedy to go to jail for it.

Randsom put Janeway's crew, herself & her ship at risk to save his own ass.

Both Captains became obsessed at bringing each man to justice, even going as far as breaking rules themselves to achieve their goals.

Both stories are almost executed the exact same way.

Patrick Stewart didn't pull it off because the same critique of his actions are questioned in "Innsurrection".

Helen Mirren wasn't a good enough actress to turn down or improve "Nation Treasure 2".


The difference is that Sisko's behaviour was consistent and built on personal treachery. We actually saw where Sisko's sense of betrayal originated. We also saw his growing discomfort with the Maquis. "For the Uniform" did not happen in a vaccum. Conversely Janeway went of on some half cocked crusade because she was personally offended at Ransom's lack of commitment to Starfleet values. Sisko had his trust betrayed and his command undermined by Edditington. In fact, if you watch "For the Uniform" closely, you realise that its not about the Maquis....he'd dealt with them before....it was about Edditington.

The DS9 episode had the benefit of a well established personal relationship between a commander and a trusted subordinate that was was built on over several episodes and seasons. The Voyager episode had none of that. The whole thing boiled down to Janeway being offended that someone broke Starfleet regulations. Indeed, one of the more disturbing elements of the episode was that Janeway never ONCE considered the situation that the Equinox crew found themselves in. She never once took the time to temper her anger by considering the extrordinary circumstances that these lost, battered people experienced. She never listens to Ransom's plea about watching his crew starve and die. Janeway just came of as an obnoxious prick with more compassion for unknown...clearly hostile...aliens than her own people.
 
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The difference is that Sisko's behaviour was consistent and built on personal treachery.

So was Janeway's. She made no secret of her dedication and loyalty to Federation principles and human morality numerous times.

And yes, it was personal treachery. Janeway clearly states she knew Ransom before this whole mess, and she got to know him better before he betrayed her.

Conversely Janeway went of on some half cocked crusade because she was personally offended at Ransom's lack of commitment to Starfleet values. Sisko had his trust betrayed and his command undermined by Edditington. In fact, if you watch "For the Uniform" closely, you realise that its not about the Maquis....he'd dealt with them before....it was about Edditington.

"Half cocked?" She had evey right to be angry. Ransom had committed genocide, betrayed the uniform, undermined Federation values, and betrayed Janeway;s trust and her crew to save his own neck. And if you watch Equinox clearly, you'll see Janeway let her restraint in bringing Ransom to justice go away, showing it was also about her personal sense of anger and betrayal along with her dedication to Starfleet.

The whole thing boiled down to Janeway being offended that someone broke Starfleet regulations.

She was more than offended; she was outraged, and you could see it was being held in. And again, Ransom did more than break the law; he threw morality and ethics to the wayside and murdered innocent sentients for his own gain. Gee, I guess some were a bit offended when Stalin began his brutal persecution. No reason to be outraged; all he did was break a law or two or three. :rolleyes:

Indeed, one of the more disturbing elements of the episode was that Janeway never ONCE considered the situation that the Equinox crew found themselves in.

I'm pretty sure she did, and still came to the same conclusion; nothing justifies mass murder. The ends don't justify the means, especially in that case. Indeed, Janeway found herself in similar situations too, where she could have broke principle or her values to benefit her and her crew, but she didn't.

[She never once took the time to temper her anger by considering the extrordinary circumstances that these lost, battered people experienced.

Yet, these people finally did have a refuge, and chance to end their muderous ways (finding Voyager). Yet they don't care, and in the process leave Voyager to die. I'd be angry too.

[She never listens to Ransom's plea about watching his crew starve and die. Janeway just came of as an obnoxious prick with more compassion for unknown...clearly hostile...aliens than her own people.

She listened, and under careful consideration made the reasonable decision to let *gasp* his crew join Voyager, rather than say bye and good luck. Yes, curse that mean Janeway; she never offered them shelter, never considered protocol to see who had the final say, and to top it off she cut off thier access to showers and food...:borg:
 
Indeed, one of the more disturbing elements of the episode was that Janeway never ONCE considered the situation that the Equinox crew found themselves in. She never once took the time to temper her anger by considering the extrordinary circumstances that these lost, battered people experienced. She never listens to Ransom's plea about watching his crew starve and die. Janeway just came of as an obnoxious prick with more compassion for unknown...clearly hostile...aliens than her own people.

These people were committing genocide and Janeway is supposed to just say "Well, gee since you were hungry I guess it's okay." Perhaps if Ransom had attempted an alliance with the aliens instead of slaughtering them the crew wouldn't have ended up in such dire straights. Instead, Ransom made bad command decisions that made his cerw turn into murderers.

Poor Ransom. :rolleyes:
 
I have absolutely no sympathy for Ransom or his crew. What they did was utterly despicable. However, I'm disturbed by Janeway's tendency for vengeance when she has been slighted. Equinox was not the first time that Janeway showed a questionable moral compass.
Also, I always thought that Sisko's actions in For The Uniform were horrible. I hope that Bill Ross gave him a severe reprimand for destroying an entire biosphere.
 
This episode was very good but I just didn't understand Janeway. Apparently its ok for her to help the Borg eliminate Species 8472 but when Randsom needs to kill 50 or so creatures to help them get home she has a probelm with it.
 
This episode was very good but I just didn't understand Janeway. Apparently its ok for her to help the Borg eliminate Species 8472 but when Randsom needs to kill 50 or so creatures to help them get home she has a probelm with it.

Point, but there's one key difference; Species 8472 was a legitimate, menacing threat that even told Janeway their goal was to purge all life in her galaxy. However, the creatures Ransom killed were no threat, essentially innocent , and Ransom "threw the first punch" as it were by deciding to kill them for better warp.
 
However, I'm disturbed by Janeway's tendency for vengeance when she has been slighted. Equinox was not the first time that Janeway showed a questionable moral compass.

It sounds like you see a pattern here. What other instances do you have in mind?
 
I always wondered what happened to the Equinox crew members when they got home, what kind of consequences did they have to suffer because of their actions.
 
in the ep. Ransom said they had gone 10,000 light years in 2 weeks, that means they would have made it in about 12 weeks. And didn't Ransom try to talk with the aliens and could not as far as he was concerned they were just animals. Whats wrong with killing an animal to save your crew and ship? It wasn't till they started attacking (the aliens that is) in an organized manner that they realized that they were dealing with an intelligent race.
 
However, I'm disturbed by Janeway's tendency for vengeance when she has been slighted. Equinox was not the first time that Janeway showed a questionable moral compass.

It sounds like you see a pattern here. What other instances do you have in mind?
Sorry, kimc. I didn't see your question until now. I did, in fact, have a point at the time I made my original post, but I've since forgotten what I was trying to allude to. Just blame my malfunctioning brain. It had something to do with Janeway earning the nickname "Bitch Goddess of The Delta Quadrant" in several fan circles. Oh, Well. Sorry, Again. :(
 
in the ep. Ransom said they had gone 10,000 light years in 2 weeks, that means they would have made it in about 12 weeks. And didn't Ransom try to talk with the aliens and could not as far as he was concerned they were just animals. Whats wrong with killing an animal to save your crew and ship? It wasn't till they started attacking (the aliens that is) in an organized manner that they realized that they were dealing with an intelligent race.


Ransom was just BSing to Janeway when he said he didn't know they were sentient beings all along.
 
However, I'm disturbed by Janeway's tendency for vengeance when she has been slighted. Equinox was not the first time that Janeway showed a questionable moral compass.

It sounds like you see a pattern here. What other instances do you have in mind?
Sorry, kimc. I didn't see your question until now. I did, in fact, have a point at the time I made my original post, but I've since forgotten what I was trying to allude to. Just blame my malfunctioning brain. It had something to do with Janeway earning the nickname "Bitch Goddess of The Delta Quadrant" in several fan circles. Oh, Well. Sorry, Again. :(

That sort of things happens to me all the time. I call it "Sometimers" since I'm too young for Alzheimers. ;)

As for Janeway's reputation I must admit that's a sore spot with me sometimes. The terms "bitch" and "moody" & "uneven" get thrown about often without concrete examples so a part of me has to wonder if it's merely because she's a woman. :(
 
It sounds like you see a pattern here. What other instances do you have in mind?
Sorry, kimc. I didn't see your question until now. I did, in fact, have a point at the time I made my original post, but I've since forgotten what I was trying to allude to. Just blame my malfunctioning brain. It had something to do with Janeway earning the nickname "Bitch Goddess of The Delta Quadrant" in several fan circles. Oh, Well. Sorry, Again. :(

That sort of things happens to me all the time. I call it "Sometimers" since I'm too young for Alzheimers. ;)

As for Janeway's reputation I must admit that's a sore spot with me sometimes. The terms "bitch" and "moody" & "uneven" get thrown about often without concrete examples so a part of me has to wonder if it's merely because she's a woman. :(

you know, I've always wondered that too, if the criticisms against her were because she was a woman
 
Sorry, kimc. I didn't see your question until now. I did, in fact, have a point at the time I made my original post, but I've since forgotten what I was trying to allude to. Just blame my malfunctioning brain. It had something to do with Janeway earning the nickname "Bitch Goddess of The Delta Quadrant" in several fan circles. Oh, Well. Sorry, Again. :(

That sort of things happens to me all the time. I call it "Sometimers" since I'm too young for Alzheimers. ;)

As for Janeway's reputation I must admit that's a sore spot with me sometimes. The terms "bitch" and "moody" & "uneven" get thrown about often without concrete examples so a part of me has to wonder if it's merely because she's a woman. :(

you know, I've always wondered that too, if the criticisms against her were because she was a woman

Don't get me wrong - I'm not saying she should be free of criticism simply because she's a woman. That would be discrimination of another kind. It's just that there just seems to be a pattern with some of the criticisms that I find disturbing.
 
Overall I liked it but I wouldn't call it great and certainly not in the pantheon of excellent Trek or even Voyager.

I thought that the behavior of Janeway was forced and I didn't buy it.

I agree with what Ron Moore said about it
The things that Janeway does in ‘Equinox’ don’t work, because it’s not about anything. She’s not really grappling with her inner demons. She’s not truly under the gun and suffering to the point where you can understand the decisions that she’s made. She just gets kind of cranky and bitchy. She’s having a bad day; these things keep popping around on the bridge, and we just keep cutting to shots of people grabbing phaser rifles and shooting, and hitting the red alert sign, over and over again. It doesn’t signify anything. It’s kind of emblematic of the show. There is a lot of potential, and there is a lot of surface sizzle going on in a lot of episodes, but to what end? What are we trying to do? What are we trying to touch in the audience? What are we trying to say? What are the things we are trying to explore? Why are we doing this episode? That was my fundamental question. When I would say, ‘What was the point of doing the first part?’ there was never a good answer for that. As a consequence, it was hard to come up with the ending to the show that has no beginning. You just start throwing things around. ‘Two captains on different courses’ at least sounds like an episode. At least there is something in it. Janeway will take something away from that experience, but not in the current version. What does she learn from that experience? I don’t know how it’s affected her. Chakotay, for all his trouble, he just goes back to work. There is no lingering problem with Janeway; there is no deeper issue coming to the fore."



I think that Ron Moore is full of crap. He seems to think that he's the greatest thing to hit science-fiction because of DS9 and BSG. Which I only hope is not true, considering I find those two shows to be vastly overrated.

"Equinox" is one of my favorite two-part Trek episodes. I think that Voyager's encounter with the Equinox changed Janeway in a way that Moore had obviously failed to see. It finally led her into becoming the balanced Starfleet commander that she needed to be for a ship in Voyager's situation in the Delta Quadrant. Instead of being the by-the-book captain of the first two seasons or the captain more willing to be Maquis and sometimes abandoning reason or good sense, Janeway became a captain who learned to utilize and balance all aspects of what she had been before the encounter with the Equinox.
 
That sort of things happens to me all the time. I call it "Sometimers" since I'm too young for Alzheimers. ;)

As for Janeway's reputation I must admit that's a sore spot with me sometimes. The terms "bitch" and "moody" & "uneven" get thrown about often without concrete examples so a part of me has to wonder if it's merely because she's a woman. :(

you know, I've always wondered that too, if the criticisms against her were because she was a woman

Don't get me wrong - I'm not saying she should be free of criticism simply because she's a woman. That would be discrimination of another kind. It's just that there just seems to be a pattern with some of the criticisms that I find disturbing.

exactly, like when people call her a bitch and moody, you wouldn't say that about a guy
 
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