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Equinox ethical question/Ethical questions in Voyager

Although, what even denial resolve was allowing ransom to keep morally afloat did subside and drift off. He admitted he was wrong and tried to do right by the situation by accepting responsibility for his actions, when it was clearly almost still with in his power to run away or Destroy Voyager.

That's called redemption.

Add to that the whole Spocklike "died saving his crew", and you've got a good man that made some rough decisions, but he straightened up in the final act.

Not a lick of that holds true for Janeway.

The only moral imperative she serves is that the victors write history, which assuredly powers her own magnificent denial resolve, because she didn't apologize to Chuckles or Noah or the entire crew or consider resigning because her decisions were just cockeyed enough that any similar situation could merit her endangering the crew and ship unnecessarily again.

And was it me or were the equinox 5 slaves all of a sudden? Convicts weighted with indentured servitude after passed judgment from Janeway with out appeal or transparent due process or civilian recourse?
 
Although, what even denial resolve was allowing ransom to keep morally afloat did subside and drift off. He admitted he was wrong and tried to do right by the situation by accepting responsibility for his actions, when it was clearly almost still with in his power to run away or Destroy Voyager.

That's called redemption.

Add to that the whole Spocklike "died saving his crew", and you've got a good man that made some rough decisions, but he straightened up in the final act.

Not a lick of that holds true for Janeway.

I agree that in the end you could say that Ransom was redeemed. Was he a good man? It's rare when people are obviously in one category or another. We all have the choices/ability to do good or bad things. While Ransom was ordering the torture of Seven, killing sentient beings for selfish reasons, etc. it would be hard to call him a good man. In the end he was able to partially atone for all that which is a good thing.

As for a Janeway she demonstrated time and time again that she was willing to die for her ship and crew plus she never allowed herself to stoop to the methods that Ransom used.
 
At her worst in year of hell, when she was down to 4 crew and the ship was a broke down wreck, rather than either buckling down to fix her ship or looking for an immoral quick fix, Janeway instead used "mind over matter" (without any super to under pin such willpower.) and the rose coloured glasses of a half blind moron to wish that nothing was wrong with Voyager and that if they just "did anything" even though they had no deflectors/shields and they were flying on thruster power alone so that they were thousands of years away from the closest planet, it was Kathyrn's determination which would ineffably conquer any obstacle.

Space dust rivoted her ship into swiss cheese. Well, Swisser cheese.

Janeway may not have Ransoms issues, but she has issues, and that is how she handled being in his situation: Sticking her head in the sand and pretending that the reset button wasn't broken.

I might think that Ranson redeemed himself as a human being but i still think he deserved to be a convict for the next 80 years which was a quality of him accepting responsibility for his actions that he'd be paying the piper no matter the consequences, y'know like when kathy sent Icheb and little q to be eaten for tresspassingduring a joyride.
 
Although, what even denial resolve was allowing ransom to keep morally afloat did subside and drift off. He admitted he was wrong and tried to do right by the situation by accepting responsibility for his actions, when it was clearly almost still with in his power to run away or Destroy Voyager.

That's called redemption.

Add to that the whole Spocklike "died saving his crew", and you've got a good man that made some rough decisions, but he straightened up in the final act.

Not a lick of that holds true for Janeway.
We all have the choices/ability to do good or bad things. While Ransom was ordering the torture of Seven, killing sentient beings for selfish reasons, etc. it would be hard to call him a good man. In the end he was able to partially atone for all that which is a good thing.

As for a Janeway she demonstrated time and time again that she was willing to die for her ship and crew plus she never allowed herself to stoop to the methods that Ransom used.

Let us reference "Year of Hell",as it places Voyager in Equinox's situation.

With the ship in pieces and besieged as it was,The Doctor reccomended she take time off to recover from the fatigue of 24/7 command.

She defied starfleet law and openly dared a court martial by violating the CMO's orders to stand down due to psycological distress.

In that situation Janeway DID stoop to Ransom's level of violating starfleet law at her convinence.Granted,she didn't kill aliens in the process,but the spirit of the violation is the same.

And Ransom attempted to make right his wrongs.The 'year of hell' Janeway made no apologies for breaking starfleet law that she previously stranded herself there for to begin with.
 
But it was a stretch to claim that she was still a Starfleet Officer in any capacity other than spirit.

At the hind end of Year of Hell, he was a local person involved in local politics.
 
Let us reference "Year of Hell",as it places Voyager in Equinox's situation.

With the ship in pieces and besieged as it was,The Doctor reccomended she take time off to recover from the fatigue of 24/7 command.

She defied starfleet law and openly dared a court martial by violating the CMO's orders to stand down due to psycological distress.

In that situation Janeway DID stoop to Ransom's level of violating starfleet law at her convinence.

Janeway has a history of putting herself on the line for her ship and crew. This was somehthing her crew recognized in episodes like "Night" and "The Omega Directive". However, violating the CM (as if all captain's don't do that from time to time :rolleyes:) and putting her own health at risk for the sake of her crew is not at all "stooping to Ransom's level".

Going without rest is never personally convenient. Killing aliens as fuel is. While I can see comparing Janeway's situation in "Year of Hell" to Ransom's to say that Janeway stooped to Ransom's level is ludicrous, imo.

Nope, I'd still rather report to Janeway. Yes I would feel bad knowing my captain was putting her health at risk for my benefit but I'd feel even worse being ordered to kill aliens to get home a little faster.
 
I agree witth you Kimc, Janeway has the right idea when it came to first contact and she'd use the technical expertise and materials from different planets, in the first part of Equinox, we see Ramson and his crew be treated to some hospitality and alone using the device for getting power for the ship is violating humanity AND it is giving the hospital species a kick in the teeth.
 
I'd like to mention the Void(I think? Sink whole energy draining pocket universe trap episode.) when Janeway said that she stayed up all night reading and rereading the Starfleet Charter trying to find some sort of legal loop hole that would allow her and her crew to stoop to piracy and thuggery like Tuvok and Chakotay were (utterly out of characterly) trying to pressure her into...

She stayed up all night?

I wonder how long Ransom stayed up trying to rend the Starfleet Charter until he could farm people?

...

Completely new tack?

If there were at least as many Equinox Crew as Maquis Crew, would that mean that Janeway no longer had to comply with her incredibly stable and equitable compromise with the Maquis, so that they could lock them up as the criminals they are who should be incarcerated b ecause of their various acts of terrorism, treason and tetchiness?
 
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“Equinox” is one of my favorite episodes for a variety of reasons, but mainly because it creates a “mirror” ship against which we can measure both Voyager and her crew. It also shows how important it is to have a captain who attempts to maintain an ethical and honorable attitude no matter how dire or desperate the situation might be.

Everyone concedes the fact that Ransom committed murder by luring the little subspace beasties into normal space, allowing them to die, and then using their bodies to fuel his ship. This crime, alone, is enough to condemn him to court martial and removal from command, IMHO. However, this is just one of a long list of crimes that Ransom commits during the episode. Before we can compare Janeway’s actions to Ransom’s, it’s important to create a detailed “rap sheet” of his offenses. There may be more, but this is a good start.

1. Cold-blooded murder of sentient beings (the reason doesn’t matter—murder is murder).

2. Bold-faced lies to Janeway and the Voyager crew about why the beasties are attacking his ship (and we know that the truth is a Starfleet officer’s “First Duty”), including lying about why the engineering section is “off limits.”

3. Refusal to submit to the direction of a superior officer (insubordination) when Janeway orders him to abandon his ship.

4. Theft of the shield emitter that had been designed by Voyager’s crew to protect both ships from attack.

5. Refusal to come to the aid of Voyager while it was under attack (a serious offense, since they are required to respond to distress calls, even from enemy ships).

6. Plotting to destroy a Starfleet ship by obtaining its command codes and hampering its ability to defend itself.

7. Attempted murder of Seven of Nine by the EMH (whose ethical subroutines had been altered).

8. Attempted murder of Voyager’s entire crew by making them vulnerable to attack.

9. Failure to adhere to Starfleet and Federation policies regarding interaction with alien races.

Now let’s deal with Ransom’s motivation. The Equinox was in bad shape. Its crew was starving to death; the ship was nearly dead in space. In such a serious situation, what is a Starfleet officer supposed to do? To defend Ransom’s actions, one must accept the premise that “the end justifies the means” is both logical and ethical, which it is not. If it’s a choice between survival by murder or death by starvation, a Starfleet officer wouldn’t hesitate to accept the “honorable” death, because the lives of the aliens are just as valuable as that of the crew. By choosing to murder the little beasties, Ransom and his crew have, in essence, stopped being a Starfleet crew and have started living by the indefensible policy of “live and let die.” They have sacrificed any rights they might have had as Starfleet officers.

We must also remember that Janeway has no idea whether or not Voyager will survive this situation. We, as jaded Star Trek fans, know from the opening scenes that Voyager is going to sail off at the end, but Janeway hasn’t read the script. All she knows is that the survival of her ship and crew depends upon her. She also feels more than a little guilty about all that has transpired, because she trusted Ransom and believed that he was still an honorable Starfleet captain (which, of course, he was not). She’s been made a fool in a duplicity that may result in the loss of her ship and the death of 147 people. Naturally, she’s going to be pissed off.

As if that isn’t enough, the episode also lets us see the importance of good leadership by putting the two captains in an almost direct comparison. Ransom disables the EMH’s ethical subroutines and has him begin to lobotomize Seven of Nine in order to allow them to continue to use their grisly power drive (which Seven has encoded). Janeway drops the shields from around the cargo bay to subject Lessing to attack, hoping to force him into revealing Equinox’s tactical status. What is Ransom’s motivation? He wants to be able to continue to murder and exploit the beasties while he leaves Voyager vulnerable to attack. What is Janeway’s motivation? She wants to stop Ransom and end the attacks. However, neither Seven or Lessing suffer permanent damage.

We can look at how the two crews react to their captain's actions, however. Ransom’s crew might feel a little bad about Seven, but they shrug it off as another concession to expediency. They are so far from their “moral center” that they no longer see any other lives as equivalent to their own—not even the loves of other humans, much less the poor beasties. This is the direct result of Ransom’s unethical and immoral leadership. Janeway, on the other hand, is confronted by her first officer and tactical officer when she tries to “cross the line.” They realize that her actions are fueled by righteous indignation and stop her (even though it would only be poetic justice for Lessing to die from an alien attack). Janeway manages to find an equitable solution to the problem she and the beasties share. While it might seem cruel to target fellow humans as she does, we have to remember that they are not just criminals, but traitors, as well.

Ultimately, Janeway manages to avoid making any big blunders, but she’s hardly perfect, which is just another point in her favor, IMHO. I like that she has come so close to forgetting her ethics and morals, because otherwise she would really be an insufferable goodie-two-shoes. She realizes how easy it is to “cross the line” and is grateful to Chakotay for his efforts to help her. Contrary to what someone said, she does apologize to him on the bridge when she admits that she almost went too far. Trust me, that is more than many commanding officers would ever admit. We can only assume that they discussed the situation in greater detail at a later date.

I really enjoyed Diane Duane’s novelization of this episode. She does a great job of examining many of the issues that this fascinating episode addresses.

If any of you are still reading this, all of it is MHO, of course. :techman:
 
Hmmmmm I've just seen equinox until they stole the shield emitter but it seems that Ramson is immoral and the fact that Janeway has her crew still calling her captain and Ramson's crew were on first name terms tell us a lot.
 
I'm quite happy that Sisko in the same situation back during Children of Time came to the same conclusion ad Adama, which neither Janeway nor Ransom considered in the least... Giving up on home and making babies.
 
I'm quite happy that Sisko in the same situation back during Children of Time came to the same conclusion ad Adama, which neither Janeway nor Ransom considered in the least... Giving up on home and making babies.

that issue was settled in The 37's
 
Hmmmmm I've just seen equinox until they stole the shield emitter but it seems that Ramson is immoral and the fact that Janeway has her crew still calling her captain and Ramson's crew were on first name terms tell us a lot.

Well it either means that they had a metrosexual orgy to keep from freezing after the space heater died, or they drew straws to see who would be eaten if they didn't just canabalize the lowest ranks.

Note how the XO referred to that hotgirl in engineering as a sandwhich, it's more than possible that he's come to like te taste of human flesh and is intruiged what a blend of Klingon spice would do to the dish? But regardless he totally dehumanized her so that he could use her in whatever way he needed to survive the days end.

God help us all if Kim felt peckish for a turkey sandwhich.

His name was "Ransom" I wonder if that's supposed to be some blunt metaphore?
 
Hmmmmm I've just seen equinox until they stole the shield emitter but it seems that Ramson is immoral and the fact that Janeway has her crew still calling her captain and Ramson's crew were on first name terms tell us a lot.

Would you like me to call you Lt Commander voyagerfan or you want me to call you voyagerfan?

:rommie:
 
Wow, excellent summary AuntKate! Here's my favorite bit:

We must also remember that Janeway has no idea whether or not Voyager will survive this situation. We, as jaded Star Trek fans, know from the opening scenes that Voyager is going to sail off at the end, but Janeway hasn’t read the script. All she knows is that the survival of her ship and crew depends upon her. She also feels more than a little guilty about all that has transpired, because she trusted Ransom and believed that he was still an honorable Starfleet captain (which, of course, he was not). She’s been made a fool in a duplicity that may result in the loss of her ship and the death of 147 people. Naturally, she’s going to be pissed off.

I'd love to be able to repost this every time this topic comes up. :)
 
Having two Captains and having two Star Fleet ships with different ideas how to get back to Earth. Was Ransom more evil and unethical for his actions to get back to Earth then how Janeway got back to Earth with the use of the Borg transport system? How many Borg did Janeway kill to get back to Earth and how many did Ransom kill just to try to get back to Earth.
 
How many Borg did Janeway kill to get back to Earth and how many did Ransom kill just to try to get back to Earth.

Comparing the aliens Ransom killed to the borg is like comparing the borg to a litter a kittens.
 
How many Borg did Janeway kill to get back to Earth and how many did Ransom kill just to try to get back to Earth.

Comparing the aliens Ransom killed to the borg is like comparing the borg to a litter a kittens.


Just because the BORG was aggressive to take over Earth in the past does not justify being the aggressive to kill the BORG. If you just replaced the BORG with some other species and we did to them what Janeway did to the BORG would it be fine.
 
Just because the BORG was aggressive to take over Earth in the past does not justify being the aggressive to kill the BORG. If you just replaced the BORG with some other species and we did to them what Janeway did to the BORG would it be fine.

The borg's goal of assimilating Earth and the rest of the Federation never ended. Just because they were thwarted in their attempts doesn't mean they changed their minds (mind) about it.

Janeway defended her ship and crew when the borg attacked. She also helped some self-aware borg rebel. If she was unsympathetic to their lives she would have just wished them luck and been on her way.
 
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