Episode: Time Squared

[TerragonSix]

This was the first episode I watched of TNG.

It was pretty interesting the first time I watched it (though I didn't understand it as a kid), but now, as an adult, I recently watched it again.

Ever watch it? If so, what are your thoughts and how does this episode rate based on the whole body of work?

I thought it was great because it showed that Picard, could, in fact, doubt his command decisions and second guess himself; mind you, he was put in an extreme circumstance to where he 'saw' the future, but still, the cool headed Captain Picard was rattled.

 

[Mojochi]

I like it. Certainly a good early episode, which featured Picard well, even if it didn't do much for the others

It does seem like it wasn't as well a developed dramatic premise as "Cause & Effect" though. It almost seems like they came up with "Cause & Effect" because they watched "Time Squared" & heard Worf's story about the Mobius, & were like "Ooo! That's the episode we should have made"

 

[T'Girl]

I like that it show Picard in a confusing situation. I never have understood why present Picard shot and killed future Picard, it didn't seem necessary to his course of actions.

 

[Robert D. Robot]

^ Yes, it never made any sense to me why he did this, either...

If I remember correctly, the original idea was that Q was to be the cause of the phenomenon and "Time Squared" was supposed to have flowed right into the next episode "Q Who". It would have been a little more rewarding (to me, anyway) to have had an explanation for the whole TS situation!

 

[Holdfast]

I like that it show Picard in a confusing situation. I never have understood why present Picard shot and killed future Picard, it didn't seem necessary to his course of actions.

I think he was just making sure...

I mean, how often do you get the chance to shoot yourself with no repercussions.

 

[Timo]

It's consistent with "Up the Long Ladder" in saying that

a) you can kill yourself without penalty and
b) if you're an average 24th century citizen, you find copies of you abhorrent as a concept and want them dead right away.

It's inconsistent with the idea that one's clones would have legal rights and protection against "suicide" as indicated in "A Man Alone", though. I could well buy Picard being in mental distress about the situation and therefore gunning down the double, but if it is considered illegal and unacceptable, then his moral inhibitors should probably kick in.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Start Wreck]

It was a freaky episode; I liked the tone, but the story didn't make any sense.
It seemed to be suggesting a loop, but one that Future Picard would instigate by going back through time again and again and again, but that wouldn't be a loop because it isn't the same Picard. He would be slightly older every time. It's impossible. What should have happened is Future Picard should have tried to stop Present Picard from taking the shuttle, and stopping him would break the loop - although technically that's a paradox, since Future Picard wouldn't exist if the shuttle didn't launch.

Also, the idea that Picard was out of sync with time and "catching up with his own time" doesn't make any sense either. He isn't catching up at all, because he's always going to be out of sync. At the point where the anomoly appears, Future Picard is however many hours older than he was when he was rescued from the shuttle, therefore still that many hours from his "correct" time - and that's assuming that there is such a thing as a correct time, since time itself is relative.

Granted, it was one of the first time travel episodes and it makes marginally more sense that the TOS episode "Tomorrow is Yesterday", but that's hardly an excuse!

(Q would have fixed the problem entirely, of course. The 24th century equivalent of "a wizard did it".)

 

[Gary7]

I would have preferred that Picard stun his other self first. And then when the Enterprise was freed of the time loop, the stunned Picard would simply vanish. Killing him just didn't seem right to me, even though the other Picard was intent on repeating his choice that would continue the loop.

 

[sonak]

agreed on many of the points mentioned above. A good episode, with a clever take on time travel stories, but it doesn't make a lot of sense.

 

[T'Girl]

It's consistent with "Up the Long Ladder" in saying that

a) you can kill yourself without penalty and ...

The difference there being Picard killed (murdered?) a older self. In Up the Long Ladder, Riker killed a seperate new person created from his dna, a off-spring.

 

[Timo]

There's no real difference there, physically speaking. In both cases, the perpetrator and victim were genetically identical. In both cases, the two were of different age. In both cases, the two were distinct people, by virtue/necessity of their age difference which translated to different life experiences.

Speaking de jure, I guess UFP records would accept both the Picards as the "valid" person, and they'd then have to slug it out with the legal machinery and each other. On the other hand, since the age difference was greater in the Riker case, and the process of "birth" was more explicit and graspable by the layman/lawman, UFP records would not quite as readily acknowledge the clone as the "valid" Riker. But a good lawyer could easily use one case as precedent for the other.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[KNH]

You'd also imagine that in this case, the Temporal Prime Directive plain wouldn't allow for two Picards.

I don't think we can so readily compare time travel and cloning here.

 

[Trek Survivor]

Really good episode. It had a sort of eerie atmosphere to it (e.g. when they're watching the distorted shuttle footage, or when the "other" Picard awakens) that TNG offered found difficult to capture.

 

[Alrik]

I like that it show Picard in a confusing situation. I never have understood why present Picard shot and killed future Picard, it didn't seem necessary to his course of actions.

It's been a while since I have seen it, however, if I'm remembering it correctly, I believe Picard killing his other version served dual purposes. One, the action is representative of him erasing his own self doubt and single mindedness. Two, and more important, he was ensuring that should he cause another loop, it would be the Picard that understood he needed to keep his options open that made it into the next one.

 

[T'Girl]

In both cases, the perpetrator and victim were genetically identical

Fraternal twins also have identical DNA (the egg split in the mother), by necessity one would be born first and be "older" that the other. In today's system, I don't believe that one could legally kill the other.

 

[sonak]

In both cases, the perpetrator and victim were genetically identical

Fraternal twins also have identical DNA (the egg split in the mother), by necessity one would be born first and be "older" that the other. In today's system, I don't believe that one could legally kill the other.

I think it's the identical twins that have the same DNA and fraternal twins don't.

 

[Robert D. Robot]

It's consistent with "Up the Long Ladder" in saying that

a) you can kill yourself without penalty and ...

The difference there being Picard killed (murdered?) a older self. In Up the Long Ladder, Riker killed a seperate new person created from his dna, a off-spring.

I find both actions particularly out of place from characters who seem to go to great lengths at other times to preserve the "lives" and fight for the rights of Starfleet androids, a Holmes holodeck character, exocomps, crystalline entities, and little buggers who think humans are "Ugly Bags of Mostly Water"......

When Riker and Dr. Pulaski killed their developing clones without too much thought about the morality of their action, it bothered me (Maybe they did labor a bit over making the decision... It has been a while since I saw the episode).

 

[sonak]

It's consistent with "Up the Long Ladder" in saying that

a) you can kill yourself without penalty and ...

The difference there being Picard killed (murdered?) a older self. In Up the Long Ladder, Riker killed a seperate new person created from his dna, a off-spring.

I find both actions particularly out of place from characters who seem to go to great lengths at other times to preserve the "lives" and fight for the rights of Starfleet androids, a Holmes holodeck character, exocomps, crystalline entities, and little buggers who think humans are "Ugly Bags of Mostly Water"......

When Riker and Dr. Pulaski killed their developing clones without too much thought about the morality of their action, it bothered me (Maybe they did labor a bit over making the decision... It has been a while since I saw the episode).

it is out of character and from my understanding, was done more to make a point about abortion(not an analagous situation) than for it to make sense or be a reasonable thing for a character to do.


Why doesn't Will Riker want to kill Thomas Riker in "second chances" then?

 

[Mojochi]

Why doesn't Will Riker want to kill Thomas Riker in "second chances" then?

What makes you think he doesn't? Maybe everybody just felt bad for Tom, & Will just thought it would leave a bad taste in everyone's mouth

 

[Timo]

It looks to me that Riker and Pulaski are making a highly moral decision when erasing their disgusting clones from existence. It's just not the type of morals that would be familiar to us - but it's consistent with the disgust expressed earlier in the episode, and consistent with Picard shooting his temporal clone in another episode. By killing a clone, our heroes are setting an example to the world, showing everybody that crime (cloning) doesn't pay, and thus giving their Starfleet uniforms and extra sheen of honor.

It's difficult to say what other effects the antipathy towards cloning would have in the 24th century society. It might lead to certain other types of killing being considered okay and necessary; Riker had little objection to the idea of mercy killing in "Half a Life" or "The Vengeance Factor", for example. Or the murderous mentality might truncate at clones made against the template's will, and the hatred of such clones would in fact increase the respect for other types of life and hold back the trigger finger.

Timo Saloniemi