Episode "Latent Image"

[USS Excelsior]

The episode where the Doctor discovers evidence that his memory files may have been tampered with, to make him forget saving Ensign Kim's life or another ensign where there was no basis to pick one over the other.

At one point he stated that with 2 patients with time to treat only 1. The patient that has the greatest chance of survival should be saved, but where you have 2 patients that have the exact same thing, how do you go about picking who to treat.

Well it just so happens that it can get more complicated than that in some cases. Say if both patients were equally injured but one of them happened to be the Captain, then you would choose to treat the Captain on the basis that she would be more vital to the mission.

Anyway on a side note it would have been easier if they had just made the Doctor forget that there was a dilemma and alter his memories to think that she was already dead, instead of making him forget the Ensign in her entirety since that's a huge gap that could be uncovered like with what happened in the episode.

 

[LeadHead]

Well, the truth of it is, it was 2 ensigns. Harry, despite being a senior officer had no rank seniority over poor Ensign Jetal. If it had been Jetal and Janeway, I'm sure he would have saved Janeway.

As for forgetting Jetal entirely, I think that was good. The most dangerous thing to the Doctor in that episode is remembering her. How interesting, Jetal was a very beautiful woman who appeared kind and polite. It's a very curious conundrum, remembering her could destroy is program.

 

[exodus]

The episode where the Doctor discovers evidence that his memory files may have been tampered with, to make him forget saving Ensign Kim's life or another ensign where there was no basis to pick one over the other.

At one point he stated that with 2 patients with time to treat only 1. The patient that has the greatest chance of survival should be saved, but where you have 2 patients that have the exact same thing, how do you go about picking who to treat.

Well it just so happens that it can get more complicated than that in some cases. Say if both patients were equally injured but one of them happened to be the Captain, then you would choose to treat the Captain on the basis that she would be more vital to the mission.

Anyway on a side note it would have been easier if they had just made the Doctor forget that there was a dilemma and alter his memories to think that she was already dead, instead of making him forget the Ensign in her entirety since that's a huge gap that could be uncovered like with what happened in the episode.

Altering his memories would still go against the point of the ep., which was to finally show the Doctor had developed an awareness beyond his programing.

The episode is also a metaphore for how we as people treat the mentally disabled or senile elderly. Instead of as a family coming together to help one of their own, they erased the parts of him they didn't want to deal with. Much how we discard people to "homes" because many refused to be bothered to care for the people that cared for them.

They allowed him to grow as a being, they acted toward him as if we part of their crew and as human. It was wrong of them to treat him like a machine when he got "sick".

 

[The Borg Queen]

This episode was abut the Doctor having a dilemma - was it ethical for him to choose which of the two to save based on his personal relationship with them.

He chose to save Harry's life over Ensign Jetal's because he was friends with Harry. That's what he couldn't come to terms with.

 

[Unicron]

It was also said that in the Doctor's case, they didn't have much of a choice beyond deleting his memories - as a piece of technology, his conflicting subroutines became caught in a loop. He didn't have the same experience an organic being would have to fall back on when having this sort of ethical conundrum.

 

[kimc]

It was also said that in the Doctor's case, they didn't have much of a choice beyond deleting his memories - as a piece of technology, his conflicting subroutines became caught in a loop. He didn't have the same experience an organic being would have to fall back on when having this sort of ethical conundrum.

I'm not so sure about that. We organic beings can certainly experience periods where our thoughts just go around in ciricles. I think of the Doctor's subroutine problem as the equivalent of a human moral crisis potentially leading to a breakdown. Just as with a human the cure turned out to be those around him supporting him as he worked it through.

 

[Unicron]

True, but we have the advantage of being better equipped to deal with such things, generally, because we experience them constantly throughout life. The Doctor is somewhat limited by his nature as a hologram, and the lack of this sort of experience. It's somewhat like how difficult it was for him to develop social skills in the early seasons, because his programming was never designed for the situation in which Voyager was placed.

(my brain's tired, so I hope I'm making sense. )

 

[kimc]

True, but we have the advantage of being better equipped to deal with such things, generally, because we experience them constantly throughout life. The Doctor is somewhat limited by his nature as a hologram, and the lack of this sort of experience. It's somewhat like how difficult it was for him to develop social skills in the early seasons, because his programming was never designed for the situation in which Voyager was placed.

I can see the limitation due to lack of experience so you got me there! As for his nature as a hologram I say if you're going to buy the idea of a sentient hologram then you also have to buy that he's able to adapt - with experience.

 

[Unicron]

Oh, I agree. I just think that, as a hologram, the Doctor's ability to adapt might be somewhat more limited than ours. But certainly not impossible. The same would be true of Data and similar beings.

 

[exodus]

True, but we have the advantage of being better equipped to deal with such things, generally, because we experience them constantly throughout life. The Doctor is somewhat limited by his nature as a hologram, and the lack of this sort of experience. It's somewhat like how difficult it was for him to develop social skills in the early seasons, because his programming was never designed for the situation in which Voyager was placed.

(my brain's tired, so I hope I'm making sense. )

Do we ever really get better equipped for death?

Even when you know it's going to happen, like say the person is slowly dying little by little over time. I don't think you're ever fully equipped to hear that news of their final passing.

 

[Unicron]

I don't think we're ever fully prepared, although our experiences help. I've been through that situation more than once. I'm not really sure if the Doctor could draw upon similar experiences, but he probably could. As kimc pointed out, he got help from his friends and that's a key ingredient we all need.

 

[exodus]

I don't think we're ever fully prepared, although our experiences help. I've been through that situation more than once. I'm not really sure if the Doctor could draw upon similar experiences, but he probably could. As kimc pointed out, he got help from his friends and that's a key ingredient we all need.

I agree about the help from our friends part.

However, he's also a doctor. He deals with death all the time, so he has the experance. What makes the episode unique is, for the first time he realizes it's not just patients who are dying. They're fimilar faces, they're now this friends. His program is now dealing with loss but loss now tied to an emotion. His "soul" feels empty now due to death. He "hurts".

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

He chose to save Harry's life over Ensign Jetal's because he was friends with Harry. That's what he couldn't come to terms with.

It could also be because Harry was a bridge officer, and thus could be considered more vital to the success of the ship's mission than Jetal.

 

[exodus]

He chose to save Harry's life over Ensign Jetal's because he was friends with Harry. That's what he couldn't come to terms with.

It could also be because Harry was a bridge officer, and thus could be considered more vital to the success of the ship's mission than Jetal.

The Doctor himself stated he believed that he saved Harry because he was more fimilar with him, thus "a friend". Which also confused him because he wasn't programmed to pick favorites.

 

[kimc]

Even when you know it's going to happen, like say the person is slowly dying little by little over time. I don't think you're ever fully equipped to hear that news of their final passing.

This is exactly what I've been through this past month with my beloved dog. She had kidney disease, an enlarged heart, arthritis and she was practically deaf. Every day I'd wonder if I was being selfish by keeping her alive but then I'd take her outside and she would run around and look at me with her doggie smile and I'd think "Not today."

I knew it was coming but the night I found her next to her dog dish was an absolute nightmare. To this day I wonder if there was more I could have done for her. After two days of crying jags some friends came over with wine and flowers and we sat around telling Coco stories. I laughed for the first time in days.

NOTHING can prepare you for losing someone. In the Doctor's case instead of the normal "What if I could have done more" guilt we all feel he had to live with the knowledge that he chose death for a crewperson that he knew and liked just because he happened to be closer to Harry. That would throw anyone off.

When the crew decided to erase his memories it was the equivalent to a human "stuffing" their emotions. That can only work for a while as we saw. It was only when they rallied around him and let him work through the guilt that he started to get better.

 

[exodus]

Even when you know it's going to happen, like say the person is slowly dying little by little over time. I don't think you're ever fully equipped to hear that news of their final passing.

This is exactly what I've been through this past month with my beloved dog. She had kidney disease, an enlarged heart, arthritis and she was practically deaf. Every day I'd wonder if I was being selfish by keeping her alive but then I'd take her outside and she would run around and look at me with her doggie smile and I'd think "Not today."

I knew it was coming but the night I found her next to her dog dish was an absolute nightmare. To this day I wonder if there was more I could have done for her. After two days of crying jags some friends came over with wine and flowers and we sat around telling Coco stories. I laughed for the first time in days.

NOTHING can prepare you for losing someone. In the Doctor's case instead of the normal "What if I could have done more" guilt we all feel he had to live with the knowledge that he chose death for a crewperson that he knew and liked just because he happened to be closer to Harry. That would throw anyone off.

When the crew decided to erase his memories it was the equivalent to a human "stuffing" their emotions. That can only work for a while as we saw. It was only when they rallied around him and let him work through the guilt that he started to get better.

My Grandfather dying slowly from bone marrow cancer & then my Grandmother from Alztimers gives me similar experances as well as empathy.

My condolences, kimc.

 

[kimc]

My condolences, kimc.

Thank you - for the condolences as well as making it through that entire post! I'm also sorry about your grandparents. It's never easy.

 

[exodus]

My condolences, kimc.

Thank you - for the condolences as well as making it through that entire post! I'm also sorry about your grandparents. It's never easy.

Thank you.

No, it never is but I take comfort in knowing they aren't suffering anymore.

 

[Unicron]

* hugs kimc and exodus *

 

[exodus]

* hugs kimc and exodus *

Knock it off..............................................ok, just one more.