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Episode Construction Oddities in TOS

I don't see a need to think that the "goggles" (good name, never heard it before this thread) or anything right under them must be ejectable. That's a spinoff-era type of idea.

OTOH, the dilithium crystal housing is kind of a disconnected island if there's no contiguous structure underneath it. At the very least, there must be heavy-duty cables running to it under raised flooring. Real heavy-duty.

Blueprints, shmuprints. All unofficial anyway.

Lad, don't you think you should... rephrase that? ;)
 
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Think of it this way- if the M/AM integrator is ejectable...
I can't remember anything in TOS that would indicate that. Kirk says in one episode ("The Apple," I think) that the nacelles can be removed or jettisoned, which is logical, but ejecting a unit that's more or less in the middle of the ship? Sorry, that makes no sense to me.
and it is connected to the "goggles" then if there is a corridor directly below that, how in the name of Jefferies do you get that to work?
How do you know there's not a level of machinery between the two decks? For that matter, how do you know that McCoy and Scotty only climbed up one level?
I don't see a need to think that the "goggles" (good name, never heard it before this thread) or anything right under them must be ejectable. That's a spinoff-era type of idea.
Goggles are things that go over your eyes. What the hell is wrong with the words "balls" or "spheres"? Those would be more accurate and much less confusing names for those objects.
 
I can't remember anything in TOS that would indicate that. Kirk says in one episode ("The Apple," I think) that the nacelles can be removed or jettisoned, which is logical, but ejecting a unit that's more or less in the middle of the ship? Sorry, that makes no sense to me.

It's an inferred feature of the design, referenced in an entirely different episode, "That Which Survives" in which Scotty has to directly access the M/AM flow via a service crawlway (which is not accessible in Main Engineering). Here are some relevant snippets of dialogue from that episode.

SPOCK: As I recall the pattern of our fuel flow, there is an access tube leading to the matter-antimatter reaction chamber.
SCOTT: There's a service crawlway, but it's not meant to be used while the integrator operates.
SPOCK: Still, it is there, and it might be possible to shut off the fuel at that point.
SCOTT: What with? Bare hands?
SPOCK: A magnetic probe.
SCOTT: Any matter that comes in contact with antimatter triggers the explosion. And I'm not even sure a man can live in the crawlway in the energy stream of the magnetic field that bottles up the antimatter.

..and while Scotty is in the crawlway..

SCOTT: All right, lads. Get the crawlway door open. Hand me the tools. Communicator. All right. Head first. I hope Mister Spock knows what he's doing.
(Scott is slid on his back into a half-sized Jefferies tube with blue energy streaks crossing it.
SCOTT: Scott to Bridge.
SPOCK [OC]: Go ahead, Mister Scott.
SCOTT: I've sealed off the aft end of the service crawlway, and I've positioned explosive separator charges to blast me clear of the ship if I rupture the magnetic bottle. I'm so close to the flow now it feels like ants crawling all over my body.

..and a few minutes later on the bridge..

SPOCK: Lieutenant Uhura, you are monitoring the magnetic force?
UHURA: Oh yes, sir.
SPOCK: Please do not take your eyes off of it. Lieutenant Rahda, arm the pod jettison system.
RAHDA: Aye, sir. I'll jettison the pod at the first sign of trouble.


How do you know there's not a level of machinery between the two decks? For that matter, how do you know that McCoy and Scotty only climbed up one level?

It would seem a tad strange to me for someone to put an access ladderway three levels below the EMM, and a corridor across the diameter of the Engineering hull right underneath Main Engineering if the integrator is connected to the dilithium assembly- per the dialog cited - you can't eject it if the corridor runs right under it.

Goggles are things that go over your eyes. What the hell is wrong with the words "balls" or "spheres"? Those would be more accurate and much less confusing names for those objects.

I refer to them as goggles because that is what I saw them referred to by Production staff once in a publication, perhaps "The Making of Star Trek" - I do not recall and it's been awhile since I read that. As for what is "more accurate and much less confusing" - nothing is wrong with balls or spheres, I never said there was, but the structure is not wholly "balls" or "spheres" either. Regardless, it's what drew your attention to it, so whatever works.
 
But then I've never understood why some people seem to think that Engineering is in the saucer instead of the lower section.

That earliest of Trek tech resources, 1968's The Making of Star Trek, specified that the "headquarters" of engineering was in the saucer. Non-canon of course, and one could say that means something other than the well-known engineering set (though I'm sure that the writer's intent was that it did). But I can see where FJ and others got the idea.
 
Still don't really see it. I just see a piece of machinery with some circular parts. And they're still missing the vital "going over the eyes" part in the definition of "goggles" that I linked to above.

Lord Other, thanks for the info on that sequence in "That Which Survives." Since I barely ever watch third season episodes of Trek, I don't have those episodes as committed to memory as I do the first two.
That earliest of Trek tech resources, 1968's The Making of Star Trek, specified that the "headquarters" of engineering was in the saucer. Non-canon of course, and one could say that means something other than the well-known engineering set (though I'm sure that the writer's intent was that it did). But I can see where FJ and others got the idea.
I was also unaware of this. Thanks for the info. Although at least some of the information in TMOST is incompatible with what actually ended up in the show itself. I tend to only accept material from that book when it doesn't substantially contradict what we were shown on screen.

For example: IIRC, I think TMOST also talked about multiple transporter rooms on the ship as well as cargo transporters, which, while certainly logical features for a starship, doesn't quite jibe with the show constantly referring to the one set we saw as "THE transporter room." So if I was building a starship IRL, I'd certainly want multiple transporter rooms in there. But when I'm watching TOS itself, in my mind there's only one transporter room.
 
The simplest solution to the issue absolve resolving the apparent discongruity between the lower and upper sections of the EMM (Emergency Manual Monitor) ladder is proposed in thus thread here:

USSEnterpriseEngineeringDeck09UncompressedVersion301_zps92e87f9a.jpg



Engineering Deck 09 (Version 3.01 / 130315)

Here is the revised draft for the warp drive section, although the alterations are less drastic compared with the other revised drafts.

The circular corridor leading to the auxiliary control room in “And the Children Shall Lead” (on E-Deck 8, coming up shortly) has been a helpful orientation how to place the circular corridor from “The Alternative Factor” in which Lazarus first showed up on this deck in the bow section.
Technically the camera edit in this episode suggests two corridors that are connected in an H-shaped manner. Since the curvature of these corridors would be totally incompatible with the curvature of the deck above, I’ve instead gone for the arrangement you see here.

In the transporter room thread we discussed requirements of the turbo lift system like “standby” and “overflow” holding positions for turbo lift cars (some pretty cool visualizations by Just a Bill I should add).
Here, we do see such an example: The turbo lift location at 7 o’clock is the one Kirk, Spock and McCoy exited to see what Dr. Daystrom was doing in the engine room in “The Ultimate Computer”.
However, there was also the turbo lift location at 9 o’clock which Larry Marvick exited in “Is There In Truth No Beauty” and knocked down poor Hadley (who apparently was just en route to the same turbo lift).

Ideally the Marvick/Hadley turbo lift location should be empty to enable passage of other turbo lift cars to travel down to E-Deck 10 and 11 and further to the other locations on the port side (but apparently it was night time aboard the Enterprise with little or no traffic).
In this revised draft the position doesn’t match exactly but as the spacing between the turbo lift locations at 7 and 8 o’clock suggests, this area could or should be “tightened” and would realize alignment as a welcome side effect.

Because of the turbo lift at the end of the “And the Children Shall Lead” corridor one deck above, we now also have a turbo lift in the inner circle on E-Deck 9. Bad news: It looks a little strange. Good news: The corridor leading ahead to the stairway and down to E-Deck 10 (to beam Nomad off the ship) no longer cannibalizes the dilithium crystal regeneration room seen in “The Alternative Factor”, for a better visualization of that area I refer to the thread of blssdwlf.

Where there used to be a turbo lift at 2 o’clock I put a “?”. The only time we saw that turbo lift in use was in “Jouney to Babel” but this engine room is now at the bow on E-Deck 12.
While we do need to have a turbo lift at this position on E-Deck 11 (“By Any Other Name”), this is not the case for E-Deck 10 (“The Ultimate Computer”). “The Day of the Dove” suggests there is a turbo lift there, but given the difficulties to establish the location of this engine room, it doesn’t necessarily have to be this one.

On the warp engine room’s starboard side there are now two tri-ladders. Assuming this engine room to be the twin of the one aboard the Constellation seen in “The Doomsday-Machine”, the movement of Scotty and repair crew definitely suggests the first ladder to be there.
However, the movement of Kirk (or his double) in “By Any Other Name” to distract the Kelvan, suggests he came from a control corridor adjacent to the cathedral’s “battery”, so that’s the other tri-ladder that leads all the way down to E-Deck 11.

Because of the energizer corridors below, the ladder to the emergency manual monitor leads straight from E-Deck 11 all the way up to E-Deck 9. While theoretically a person inside the access corridor could go through the yellow door into the circular main corridor (as Norman did in “I, Mudd”), no other personnel can go into this section from the circular main corridor (I’d consider this as a safety feature to handle hostile takeovers and would like to believe that the “secret” access to the emergency manual monitor on E-Deck 11 doesn’t even show up on the “real” deck plans). ;)

I did include another ladder as I presume that the engineering hull’s “life support” (Chekov aboard the Defiant in “The Tholian Web”) / artificial gravity section to be in the vicinity of the emergency manual monitor.
The original Enterprise concepts did envision an engineering hull-saucer separation for situations other than ultimate emergencies. Accordingly, the engineering hull, too, would require a life support control of its own…

And last but not least we have the riddle of the disappearing and re-appearing energizers (or fusion reactors or transformers as you like) on the engine room sides opposite to the 1st level’s “balcony” and below the “monitor” stations. I already addressed and illustrated the issue earlier in post # 27

Originally I thought these energizers could be lifted down to / up from E-Deck 10 for repair and/or maintenance, but the energizer corridors from “In A Mirror, Darkly” made short work of this idea.

Alternately there could be a slide door (usually hidden by an energizer already standing in the engine room?) and an (invisible) floor track system to bring these energizers into the engine room or move these back to their positions parallel to the cathedral’s battery. Contrary to what you see on the revised draft, the energizers could also be “facing” the battery complex, but I assume the basic idea is clear.

“In-Universe” this would explain why there was an energizer behind Kirk and Mara when they materialized in the engine room in “The Day of the Dove”.
During their fighting either Kirk and Kang accidentally pushed a button or a Klingon did to free up more space during their duel. Minutes later the energizer had mysteriously disappeared!
Bob

Basically there is a stretch of small corridor between the door off the main corridor which leads to the area underneath the EMM. Both ends of the small corridor have a yellow ladder, but only one leads to the EMM!
 
Still don't really see it. I just see a piece of machinery with some circular parts. And they're still missing the vital "going over the eyes" part in the definition of "goggles" that I linked to above.

goggles-zpsgjxnapfw.jpg


I just couldn't resist. The temptation was too great. :lol:

Lord Other, thanks for the info on that sequence in "That Which Survives." Since I barely ever watch third season episodes of Trek, I don't have those episodes as committed to memory as I do the first two.

WHAT IS THIS SACRILEGE?? You _DARE_ to not memorize _ALL_ of the Most Holy Original Series episodes?!? What blasphemy is this? ;) Just kidding. I haven't seen all the Voyager or Enterprise episodes either, so..

The simplest solution to the issue absolve resolving the apparent discongruity between the lower and upper sections of the EMM (Emergency Manual Monitor) ladder is proposed in thus thread here:

Basically there is a stretch of small corridor between the door off the main corridor which leads to the area underneath the EMM. Both ends of the small corridor have a yellow ladder, but only one leads to the EMM!

Thank you Mytran, and hello- I used to lurk on here quite a bit and read a number of your posts, but I had not seen this one before, thank you for sharing it. :) I seem to recall blssdwlf created a 3d model of the Engineering section too, and had something similar going on for the ladder up to the EMM, but I could be mistaken.
 
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Thank you Mytran, and hello- I used to lurk on here quite a bit and read a number of your posts, but I had not seen this one before, thank you for sharing it. :) I seem to recall blssdwlf created a 3d model of the Engineering section too, and had something similar going on for the ladder up to the EMM, but I could be mistaken.
Hello back at ya! :techman:
Yes, both Robert_Comsol and Bllsdwlf really expanded on a notion I've been experimenting with for years, that of fitting the actual sets and corridors as built into a functional Enterprise. A fun venture, to be sure!
 
Yep. Definitely with you on that- piecing together the inner workings of ships and whatnot from what evidence is to be had, and figuring out how it works as a cogent whole is one of my favourite hobbies. I am a big believer in that form follows function, and from my research Matt Jefferies generally tried to adhere to that philosophy (within those limits imposed by working on a television show with a set budget every week). In regards to what you linked over and reading back I notice that blssdwlf has the EMM at a height of 6.5' from the Engineering deck which I believe also matches the standard door height within the series.

The-Enterprise-Incident-274-zpsbg3e3va8.jpg


Given that the EMM would appear to be placed directly above a second entrance to the Engineering set in "The Enterprise Incident" did either of you figure out how that would work out / if it would pose a problem?
 
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WHAT IS THIS SACRILEGE?? You _DARE_ to not memorize _ALL_ of the Most Holy Original Series episodes?!? What blasphemy is this? ;) Just kidding. I haven't seen all the Voyager or Enterprise episodes either, so..
I'll let you in on a little secret, Lord Other. A lot of those third season TOS episodes... Well, they're not very good. Although I did enjoy "That Which Survives" the last time I watched it.

And I'm right there with you on missing a lot of VOY and ENT. VOY I more or less gave up on after my disappointment with the Captain Sulu episode (although I did catch a few episodes later in the run*), and ENT I missed pretty much the entirety of the third season. I came back in the fourth when they had a new showrunner and started to tie into TOS more.

*Funny story: One night in 1998-99, my then-girlfriend and I were sitting in my apartment, channel-flipping. She came across an episode of VOY with the catsuited Seven of Nine walking through the corridor talking to someone. We watched in silence for a few moments, and then my girlfriend turned to me and said, "I'm mesmerized by the breasts." :lol:
 
Given that the EMM would appear to be placed directly above a second entrance to the Engineering set in "The Enterprise Incident" did either of you figure out how that would work out / if it would pose a problem?
That's not a second entrance in the wall in the background in those shots you posted, that's actually the main rear wall with the large grill and cathedral-like tube structure behind. The grill has a vertical yellow pipe adjacent to it, but no door.

As regards Robert_Comsol's proposed height of the corridor underneath the EMM it does make things a little cramped but not impossible - no worse really than the Jefferies Tube set on TNG
 
I'll let you in on a little secret, Lord Other. A lot of those third season TOS episodes... Well, they're not very good. Although I did enjoy "That Which Survives" the last time I watched it.

Hehehehe.. Some of my favourite lines from bad science fiction come from the 3rd season.. Who can forget DeForest Kelley's delivery of the line, "His brain is gone." I'll concede its not the best.

And I'm right there with you on missing a lot of VOY and ENT. VOY I more or less gave up on after my disappointment with the Captain Sulu episode (although I did catch a few episodes later in the run*), and ENT I missed pretty much the entirety of the third season. I came back in the fourth when they had a new showrunner and started to tie into TOS more.

Pretty much a similar story for me- I had other things going on in my life that required my attention when the last two seasons of Voyager aired and I simply never got around to catching up. As for Enterprise.. I recently have been doing binge watching marathons with my girlfriend, and the last season, save for the beginning with the "World War II with a twist" arc was actually quite enjoyable. Its a shame that TPTB didn't listen to the fans who had been clamoring for a pre-Birth of the Federation/Romulan War storyline/setting, only to retool anyhow when Enterprise was about to end. By then it was too little, too late.


*Funny story: One night in 1998-99, my then-girlfriend and I were sitting in my apartment, channel-flipping. She came across an episode of VOY with the catsuited Seven of Nine walking through the corridor talking to someone. We watched in silence for a few moments, and then my girlfriend turned to me and said, "I'm mesmerized by the breasts." :lol:

Well they certainly seemed to understand the male heterosexual demographic, and perhaps the female bisexual one as well judging from you gf's reaction in to Seven of Nine. Voyager and Enterprise both had catsuited women in the cast for that reason- sex appeal. Why else would a highly trained professional be happy to run around in a skin tight outfit every day. Lol.

That's not a second entrance in the wall in the background in those shots you posted, that's actually the main rear wall with the large grill and cathedral-like tube structure behind.

B47-BE34-C-409-E-4835-9299-27-E68-A2-CBFEE-zpsov3rtehw.png


I hope the infographic above explains what I was talking about perhaps a bit better than I did previously. Granted its the only time you see this alcove to my knowledge but it does fit with characters walking into Engineering other than the Main Entrance or the overlooking gantry (which Kang and company used to sneak in)

As regards Robert_Comsol's proposed height of the corridor underneath the EMM it does make things a little cramped but not impossible -

I'm glad I'm only 6'2".. Lol.
 
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Ah, I see where you're looking, thanks! Obviously, in real life that's just a wall flat placed there to cover the fact that the Engine Room rear wall doesn't extend far enough. I suspect that's also why it is placed at an angle and closer to the camera.

However, I also can't deny that it strongly resembles a door alcove, at least in that image! I'll check out the episode again later today and see if any other clues spark my imagination ;)
 
Not bisexual, just really, really cool. :)
It's a parochial feeling of these times that says form fitting clothing must always be sexist. I remember the early 70s, when form fitting was seen as open minded, what the young wanted, both genders to some extent, what the old and middle aged tried to quash, not because of sexism, but for being too open sexually (for lack of better words that aren't coming today.) Points of view change.
 
I miss the 70s. Specially the Summertime. My house backed up to a utility right of way with a major street opposite that was (and still is ) used as a jogging and cycling route. Back then all the women wore tiny shorts, tank tops, and tube tops and most didn't wear bras. Not wearing a bra back them was the thing, regardless of size. And when they went inside and hit the cold AC and things popped out. Oh well. No worries. Everyone's got them.
 
Watched "Mudd's Women" last night and noticed that a close-up reaction shot of McCoy in the transporter room after beaming up Mudd's "cargo" was actually of him in Sickbay from later in the episode. He's wearing his medical smock as opposed to the standard long sleeve uniform shirt he's otherwise wearing in the transporter room scene, and on top of that, you can see a medical scanner in the background.
 
Yep, that's incredibly obvious even in SD.

In my headcanon interpretation, we are seeing a subjective shot of McCoy in that scene; he is so relaxed by the women that he feels like he does back in Sickbay, post surgery!
 
Watched "Mudd's Women" last night and noticed that a close-up reaction shot of McCoy in the transporter room after beaming up Mudd's "cargo" was actually of him in Sickbay from later in the episode. He's wearing his medical smock as opposed to the standard long sleeve uniform shirt he's otherwise wearing in the transporter room scene, and on top of that, you can see a medical scanner in the background.
I'm glad that got mentioned.

Another example of something edited out of sequence is in "Elaan of Troyius," when a closeup of Scotty from when Kryton had gotten captured is used in the sequence when Elaan is being given a tour of engineering. You can tell from angle, and most especially the guard pointing his phaser in the background, that it's part of a shot used later.

Another odd thing about the transporter room sequence in "Mudd's Women" is the way that the women spontaneously change positions on the transporter platform. :lol:
 
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