Entitlements (non-US residents)

[DiSiLLUSiON]

In the interest of comparing the answers of US with non-US residents (thus being a non-US resident is preferred, obviously), I give you a copy of the post by TheLonelySquire:

What do you think about the following, and which of those points are already in place in your country?

Every person is entitled to government assured:
(Yes or no answers are fine)

1. Health care from cradle to grave.
2. Day care.
3. College education
4. Place to live.
5. Food.
6. Transportation.
7. Retirement income.
8. Burial plot.

I have certain expectations of course, but I could very well be proven wrong. This should be interesting.

 

[DiSiLLUSiON]

Here in the Netherlands everyone is attitled to nearly everything on this list (most things are subsidized), except for transportation and a burial plot. And I think it's good people are entitled to most of these things; if you don't need to worry about a roof over your head or food to eat, you can worry about bigger things, like getting a job. And if you have a job, you can worry about bigger things, like getting a better (more satisfying / better paying) job. And so on.

Should everybody be entitled to transportation? I don't think so; distances are very short here; everything is at walking distance. And you don't really need to go further then your work or job application. But in the former, your boss usually gives you compensation for the travel costs, and in the latter you'll need to invest in getting a job anyway.

Should everybody be entitled to a burial plot? I don't think so; even if everybody would want to, there's no room to put them all! Though perhaps using the bodies as a natural growth enhancer for nature, if that works, might be something worth looking into. But I doubt most people would ever agree with that.

 

[Pingfah]

I believe people should be entitled to health care, basic accommodation (just what is required to survive and provide a base to seek work from), and enough money to provide nutrition and heating to stay alive both as a working age adult and as a pensioner. But not luxuries of any kind.

I think that a healthy population who are not sleeping in the streets is beneficial to the country as whole.

Most of those other things (assuming by college you mean university) are not free to every adult in the UK, nor should they be.

 

[TheLonelySquire]

Hey, I respect your opinion even if I don't really agree with it. Good topic.

Oh, when I was in Amsterdam last year I noticed virtually all the bikes were very old looking. Is that so people won't steal them? (sorry, no derailment intended)

 

[Da'an]

1. Health care from cradle to grave.
Sure, healthcare would seem to be a basic human necessity, however that shouldn't be an excuse to smoke, drink, and have a bad diet, etc. Basic healthcare and life-saving emergency procedures should be avalable to everybody regardless of their income.

2. Day care.
I'm not sure exactly what is meant by that, could you elaborate a little?

3. College education
A right? If a student is hard-working enough to deserve further education in college, with the potential to become a practical contributing member of society, then it would be nice if they are able to achieve their potential even if they have little to no expendable income.

4. Place to live.
I would assume shelter to be another basic human necessity, at the very least. At least somewhere for people to stay that isn't out on the streets in bad weather.

5. Food.
In essence, yes. However it would be tricky knowing where to draw the line. Of course those living below the "poverty line" must be able to have access to proper nutrition at the very least.

6. Transportation.
I'm not sure how much of a necessity this would be, I expect it may be highly situation-dependent. Public transport should be reliable and consistent, and not-for-profit. I think that would be acceptable.

7. Retirement income.
This isn't something I've really given any thought to before, so I can't comment one way or the other.

8. Burial plot.
I'm not sure about burial as an entitlement, but free cremation should be an option for those families unable to pay for funerary costs.

 

[DiSiLLUSiON]

Hey, I respect your opinion even if I don't really agree with it. Good topic.

Thank you for the opportunity to compare; it really should be interesting.

Oh, when I was in Amsterdam last year I noticed virtually all the bikes were very old looking. Is that so people won't steal them? (sorry, no derailment intended)

I have no idea; I don't ride a bike (not everybody over here does, you know ) but I assume so, the stealing of bikes is a hot topic in the more urban areas.

Most of those other things (assuming by college you mean university) are not free to every adult in the UK, nor should they be.

Actually, I don't know what TLS in his original topic meant, but I didn't mean university exclusively, more any sort of schooling; over here, the government has a construction where a student get a certain amount of money each month (+ a loan if one wants/needs to), depending on how rich the parents are; but the student will still have to actually pay for the education (and accompanying costs) though.

There are also countries (as far as I know) that don't subsidize any sort of education; that makes it much harder to get a few good diplomas if your parents don't have much money. Kids in such a situation seem to opt out; they work a low job from a young age and, used to having at least some money, don't like going back in order to get a diploma.

2. Day care.
I'm not sure exactly what is meant by that, could you elaborate a little?

Over here, daycare is subsidized; that means that, depending on your income, you get a certain amount of money back when you put your kids on daycare. The idea behind it, is that it gives you the ability to work (and thus better the economy) even while having kids, without tearing into your income too much. Kids are still an expensive thing.

 

[Pingfah]

Actually, I don't know what TLS in his original topic meant, but I didn't mean university exclusively, more any sort of schooling; over here, the government has a construction where you get an amount of money each month depending on how rich the parents are (+ a loan if one wants/needs to); but the student will still have to actually pay for the education (and accompanying costs) though.

There are also countries (as far as I know) that don't subsidize any sort of education; that makes it much harder to get a few good diplomas if your parents don't have much money; most kids seem to opt out and work a low job from a young age.

I see. You get free education here up til 18 to a pretty high standard. Then you have to pay for it. I think the system is fine like that. University used to be largely free, but frankly I think far too many people do degrees in this country. We don't need a whole flipping country full of white collar workers. We should be encouraging practical apprenticeships etc as much as possible.

I favour giving them loans to pay for University courses and then making them pay it back when they start earning as we do now.

 

[Goliath]

I object to the use of this pejorative term, 'entitlement,' to frame this discussion.

If we're going to have a serious discussion about what level of social welfare provision is appropriate, we should try to avoid the use of this type of partisan double-talk.

 

[Count Zero]

I think the poll suffers greatly from oversimplification. What does 'entitled to' mean in each case? Should the government provide it? Free of charge? Or just take measures to make it available to everyone?
I find myself unable to answer that poll for those reasons. So I'd do it this way:

Every person is entitled to government assured:

1. Health care from cradle to grave.
Yes. (should be and is in my country)

2. Day care.
Yes. While people in my country are entitled to this, it's usually pretty expensive, so that poor people often don't send their children there, which is often detrimental for the children's development. So I think this should either be really cheap or free of charge.

3. College education
Yes (if academically qualified). It used to be free in this country, but some states demand tuition fees now. I think it should be free because innovation is what we live off here and we actually need more academics, not less.

4. Place to live.
Yes, if the person is unable to pay for it themself. (Applies to my country)

5. Food.
Yes, if the person is unable to pay for it themself. (This is bundled with the above in the right to social benefits if you're in need.)

6. Transportation.
I think it would be beneficial for the environment and for regional development if there was an easy access to public transport. So, yes, I think people are kind of entitled to it. But it doesn't have to be free of charge, of course and is usually provided by at least half-private companies.

7. Retirement income.
Yes. (Applies to my country)

8. Burial plot.
No.

 

[DiSiLLUSiON]

I object to the use of this pejorative term, 'entitlement,' to frame this discussion.

If we're going to have a serious discussion about what level of social welfare provision is appropriate, we should try to avoid the use of this type of partisan double-talk.

That's okay, because I spelled it wrong.

 

[Captain Shaw]

Actually, I don't know what TLS in his original topic meant, but I didn't mean university exclusively, more any sort of schooling; over here, the government has a construction where you get an amount of money each month depending on how rich the parents are (+ a loan if one wants/needs to); but the student will still have to actually pay for the education (and accompanying costs) though.

There are also countries (as far as I know) that don't subsidize any sort of education; that makes it much harder to get a few good diplomas if your parents don't have much money; most kids seem to opt out and work a low job from a young age.

I see. You get free education here up til 18 to a pretty high standard. Then you have to pay for it. I think the system is fine like that. University used to be largely free, but frankly I think far too many people do degrees in this country. We don't need a whole flipping country full of white collar workers. We should be encouraging practical apprenticeships etc as much as possible.

I favour giving them loans to pay for University courses and then making them pay it back when they start earning as we do now.

Trouble is the way the job market is going you are going to need a degree just to work in a shop.

 

[Kelthaz]

I'm Canadian, but I can't answer the poll. The answers are too black and white.

Healthcare? Yes.

Daycare? No, but if someone has a full time job they should get a discount or free daycare depending upon their income and if they are a single parent or have other issues (disability for example).

College? I think loans are fine, but tuition needs to be kept to reasonable levels. The government should also help (such as interest relief) if the person is unable to pay the loans back after graduation if his/her income is too low or is unable to find a job.

Place to live? Yes.

Food? Absolutely.

Transportation? If a person has a job and they need a vehicle to get to work (public transportation isn't acceptable for some reason) and they can't afford one due to other issues (dependents, etc.) than yes. If public transportation is available and acceptable, than a bus pass will suffice. If they don't have a job, well maybe there can be a bike fund.

Retirement Income? Not sure.

Burial? Not sure.

This is Pingfah's point. None of these issues are black and white. I believe everyone deserves to be healthy, fed, and sheltered. Beyond that it gets murky.

 

[Hermiod]

I'm from the UK.

1. Health care from cradle to grave - Yes. Denying anyone legitimate healthcare for financial reasons is barbaric. Note, that I mean care that will help them stay alive and healthy. I do not mean unnecessary cosmetic surgery, reproductive treatment (IVF) etc.

2. Day care - No. People should be prepared to look after their own children or not have them in the first place.

3. College education - Yes. However, I believe more people should be encouraged to learn trades rather than going to university to get degrees that have nothing to do with the career they then embark upon. We need plumbers and electricians and roof thatchers and a million other things.

4. Place to live - Yes.

5. Food - Yes. Though this would be through unemployment benefit and they would have to demonstrate that they are seeking work.

6. Transportation - No. Only those who require it in order to maintain their independence - i.e. the disabled or the elderly - should receive this.

7. Retirement income - Yes. However, the pension system should never have been designed so that the young pay for the existing pensioners. People should pay for themselves throughout their lives.

8. Burial plot - No. This is largely because I believe people should be cremated more than anything else, I suppose.

 

[TheLonelySquire]

I think the poll suffers greatly from oversimplification. What does 'entitled to' mean in each case? Should the government provide it? Free of charge? Or just take measures to make it available to everyone?
I find myself unable to answer that poll for those reasons. So I'd do it this way:

Every person is entitled to government assured:

1. Health care from cradle to grave.
Yes. (should be and is in my country)

2. Day care.
Yes. While people in my country are entitled to this, it's usually pretty expensive, so that poor people often don't send their children there, which is often detrimental for the children's development. So I think this should either be really cheap or free of charge.

3. College education
Yes (if academically qualified). It used to be free in this country, but some states demand tuition fees now. I think it should be free because innovation is what we live off here and we actually need more academics, not less.

4. Place to live.
Yes, if the person is unable to pay for it themself. (Applies to my country)

5. Food.
Yes, if the person is unable to pay for it themself. (This is bundled with the above in the right to social benefits if you're in need.)

6. Transportation.
I think it would be beneficial for the environment and for regional development if there was an easy access to public transport. So, yes, I think people are kind of entitled to it. But it doesn't have to be free of charge, of course and is usually provided by at least half-private companies.

7. Retirement income.
Yes. (Applies to my country)

8. Burial plot.
No.

Count Zero,

What about able bodied adults who for whatever reason don't wish to work? Are they obligated to in any way? Thanks.

 

[Kelthaz]

What about able bodied adults who for whatever reason don't wish to work? Are they obligated to in any way? Thanks.

You didn't ask me, but here's my opinion.

I think everyone, regardless of their desire to work, is entitled to the basics of life. Health, food, and shelter. I believe that the number of people who want to live on what is essentially welfare their entire lives is so small as to not be a problem. I wouldn't have any respect for those people, but I wouldn't want them to starve to death either.

 

[TheLonelySquire]

What about able bodied adults who for whatever reason don't wish to work? Are they obligated to in any way? Thanks.

You didn't ask me, but here's my opinion.

I think everyone, regardless of their desire to work, is entitled to the basics of life. Health, food, and shelter. I believe that the number of people who want to live on what is essentially welfare their entire lives is so small as to not be a problem. I wouldn't have any respect for those people, but I wouldn't want them to starve to death either.

See, while I wouldn't WANT anyone to starve to death, that's their decision. I understand providing for the elderly, children, and disabled. But for someone who is not WILLING to provide for themselves and is fully capable, they deserve nothing. Zero.

 

[Count Zero]

What about able bodied adults who for whatever reason don't wish to work? Are they obligated to in any way? Thanks.

You didn't ask me, but here's my opinion.

I think everyone, regardless of their desire to work, is entitled to the basics of life. Health, food, and shelter. I believe that the number of people who want to live on what is essentially welfare their entire lives is so small as to not be a problem. I wouldn't have any respect for those people, but I wouldn't want them to starve to death either.

Yeah, that's pretty much my stance on the issue. While the system is in place for people in need, there will always be ways to abuse it. You can't fully prevent this. But I think it's a marginal problem. Besides, 'able-bodied' people sometimes have other issues that prevent them from holding any job. I don't think anyone deserves to starve to death or become homeless.

 

[Kelthaz]

See, while I wouldn't WANT anyone to starve to death, that's their decision. I understand providing for the elderly, children, and disabled. But for someone who is not WILLING to provide for themselves and is fully capable, they deserve nothing. Zero.

Yeah, I was torn on that issue myself. The way I see it is any system designed to help people who truly need it will be abused. That's something you simply have to accept. If you start cutting off people based on certain criteria you will end up hurting innocent people in the crossfire.

"Hello, Mr. Johnson was it. Our records indicate that you have been unemployed for the past 26 months. I'm afraid that exceeds our limit and we'll have to cut our support now. Here, take this cardboard box. If you check the dumpsters behind restaurants you might be able to stay alive until you freeze to death during winter. Good luck. Next!"

Okay, a little exaggerated, but you get my point. I wouldn't want to see anyone end up on the streets without food whether they're innocent or a moocher. Throw them in a dumpy apartment with no luxuries and hope they get sick of it and go get a job, but you can't just let people die. At least, that's how I see it.

 

[Holdfast]

Every person is entitled to government assured:
(Yes or no answers are fine)

1. Health care from cradle to grave.
2. Day care.
3. College education
4. Place to live.
5. Food.
6. Transportation.
7. Retirement income.
8. Burial plot.

What I think should be provided by a state:

1. Yes, but only as a basic means-tested safety net to those unable to afford healthcare by other means. If you have means, you need to contribute to some form of compulsory insurance payment (whether to a state insurer or a private one, whether by employer or employee, I care not one whit, just not unhypothecated funding out of general taxation).

2. No. But some sort of generous tax-relief arrangement would be acceptable, on a heavily means-tested basis.

3. No. But some sort of state-backed (but privately administered) loan system is fine, again on a means-tested basis.

4. Yes. But not necessarily a state-owned/run property, and with a minimal/spartan standard of living. The state should absolutely fund a minimal "roof over their head" though.

5. Yes. But only through providing them a basic subsistence wage. Certainly not enough to allow anything fancy. And if they blow the wage on other things, they should learn to budget better. Obviously setting the wage at the right level is the challenge here, and not an easy one.

6. No.

7. No. Unless it's the same subsistence wage mentioned above in the case of no other income streams, in which case, fine.

8. No. But yes to providing a basic but dignified cremation.



I guess my views are right-of-centre: I think the state absolutely has some certain very basic duties: shelter, core income, safety net healthcare, cremation but only to those unable to provide for themselves, and it should be stringently means-tested. Also, if you can work and choose not to, you forfeit those benefits. That's a very difficult thing to prove though, so the number of people falling in that category would be close to zero. In short: protection from utter destitution, but no more.

 

[Miss Chicken]

1. Health care from cradle to grave - Yes, Medicare covers all Australians.
2. Day care - in theory every parent is entitled to day care and the government usually subsidises it to some degree. However there aren't enougfh child care places available.

3. College education - Australians aren't entitled to a University education. However if they get into a university most of them are entitled to Austudy payments.
4. Place to live - All Australians can apply for government housing but there is a stortage of places available especially in certain areas.
5. Food - no entitlement though I believe that government benefits are generous enough to stop people from going hungry.
6. Transportation - No entitlement though most major cities have reasonable public transport systems. I personal would like to see all public transport free so that it would be used by many more people instead of them using cars.
7. Retirement income - yes.
8. Burial plot - no I believe that there are some government payments for people who are too poor to pay for funerals.