Didn't Sisko react a little emotion when the Defiant was about to explode?
Enterprise, the character
- Thread starter Shat Happens
- Start date
Riker also had an attachment to Enterprise that Picard didn't.
Clark Terrell
Lieutenant Commander
He voiced regret at losing her, but his attachment was Bajor rather than the Defiant.
I always got the impression his attachment lessened as the years went by. Certainly during the early years--when the writers were trying to make him seem like a hybrid of Kirk and Decker--he seemed to have an infatuation with the Enterprise that none of his shipmates did, which was part of the reason why he didn't take any of the promotions or transfers offered to him.
Oh, I don't think one supercedes the other, but losing the Defiant was a pretty big blow to Sisko (and besides, he can't love Bajor if he gets blown up, too). And in hindsight, I thought it pretty clever of Weyoun to essentially relish the Defiant's destruction by outright stating Sisko's fondness for her - destroying a ship is common, especially in this war, but they had blown up the one constant ship that was a thorn in their side on top of Defiant being the lead command vessel in several major engagements. With the length of Defiant's resume, her destruction is bound to be a punch in the gut.
I recall the Nitpicker's Guide to Generations, which the author thought it was very odd about how nonchalantly Picard and Riker seemed to treat her destruction. By all rights, Picard should be at least sort of annoyed that the ship was destroyed under Riker's command, no matter the circumstance. But then when they're walking through the rubble, Picard finds and then puts down a hugely important archaeological find which somehow survived the crash, and Riker goes, "I always thought I'd have a shot at the big chair, but OH WELL."
So if their infatuation lessened as the years went by, it's kind of shown by the two highest ranking officers on the ship kind of treating her loss as just another day on the job.
Has anyone mentioned "Emergence" yet? The episode where the Enterprise actually gained consciousness? Or are we trying to forget that one? 
That's largely because all the TNG movies basically just tossed out everything the series established about the characters, or used it fairly randomly.
Riker's desire throughout the show was to command the Big E and step into Picard's chair and nothing less, and I think he did have a touch of a fetishistic attachment to the ship; Picard, and this is something I always quite liked about him, was not prone to that kind of sentimentality about the ship (we see he had once been about the Stargazer, so it may be the caution and experience of "he who has loved and lost"), but most assuredly was attached to the post and work it represented to the point of refusing promotion to the Admiralty*.
The TNG movies, OTOH, were written on the apparent premise that the Enterprise crew knew they could trash as many ships as they wanted, since Starfleet would keep churning out replacements as long as there were letters in the alphabet. Picard actually says that out loud at one point. Which was just a teensy bit WTF.
As for the "character" of the original Enterprise, I liked Kirk's relationship with the ship on the show -- it was a great illustration of his monomania about duty**. The sentimentality got way over the top by the time it hit the big screen; in fact it was the original movie franchise that, after destroying the original Enterprise, established as precedent that Starfleet would just keep building new ones with the same registry number... and we all saw where that went. Not so fond of that.
Cyke101 said:
That's largely because all the TNG movies basically just tossed out everything the series established about the characters, or used it fairly randomly.
Riker's desire throughout the show was to command the Big E and step into Picard's chair and nothing less, and I think he did have a touch of a fetishistic attachment to the ship; Picard, and this is something I always quite liked about him, was not prone to that kind of sentimentality about the ship (we see he had once been about the Stargazer, so it may be the caution and experience of "he who has loved and lost"), but most assuredly was attached to the post and work it represented to the point of refusing promotion to the Admiralty*.
Which itself, yes this whole bit about refusing promotions was an annoyance in TNG. In military organizations [and Starfleet is one, despite its protestations] refusing promotion is a career-killer; people who refuse to step up when they're promoted are seen as dead-weight to be gotten rid of, to make room for people who do have ambition. And I doubt the Admiralty in anything like a real Navy would look kindly on an experienced officer choosing not to put his experience to use at a higher level when asked.
But. Nevertheless. That is the portrayal on the show.
But. Nevertheless. That is the portrayal on the show.
The TNG movies, OTOH, were written on the apparent premise that the Enterprise crew knew they could trash as many ships as they wanted, since Starfleet would keep churning out replacements as long as there were letters in the alphabet. Picard actually says that out loud at one point. Which was just a teensy bit WTF.
As for the "character" of the original Enterprise, I liked Kirk's relationship with the ship on the show -- it was a great illustration of his monomania about duty**. The sentimentality got way over the top by the time it hit the big screen; in fact it was the original movie franchise that, after destroying the original Enterprise, established as precedent that Starfleet would just keep building new ones with the same registry number... and we all saw where that went. Not so fond of that.
It would be nice to see PineKirk grow into this, though I don't think we'll get there; currently he seems to feel entitled to the Enterprise, which isn't the same thing.
Clark Terrell
Lieutenant Commander
Which never made sense to me. I recognize that the producers and writers wanted to show that the Enterprise was something of a dream posting for many officers, but it offered the unrealistic view of life and career that you mentioned. Someone as ambitious as Will Riker wouldn't suddenly turn down the captain's chair just because it would mean leaving the Enterprise.
Even if Riker was hoping to get the ship--possibly by having Picard give to him--it would seem his chances of succeeding Picard as Enterprise captain would have been helped by having at least one other command prior to taking on the responsibility of manning Starfleet's flagship.
Yes, Kirk picked Decker has his replacement (and Spock eventually followed him after TMP), but Kirk was an admiral with greater authority than Picard and may have been able to swing the transfer of command as part of his normal duties. I can't imagine a captain--even one as well-respected as Picard--would be able to hand-pick his ship's next captain.
"I'll get you, my pretty. And your mangy little dog, too!"
HA!!! 
The worst of it is that it's in an "alternate" timeline, which makes insulting Spock/Vulcan fans even more pointless. Well ... maybe not pointless, except to make the statement: "F.U." What can one say to that except, "message received!". When will this one-upmanship end, when it comes to destroying, killing and otherwise blowing up sacred aspects of the STAR TREK mythos? That's Nicholas Meyer's legacy, for you ... 100%. Starting with The Wrath of Khan. And it's one that I, as a TREK fan, could do without! Leave ... the sacredness ... alones!!!
The worst of it is that it's in an "alternate" timeline, which makes insulting Spock/Vulcan fans even more pointless. Well ... maybe not pointless, except to make the statement: "F.U." What can one say to that except, "message received!". When will this one-upmanship end, when it comes to destroying, killing and otherwise blowing up sacred aspects of the STAR TREK mythos? That's Nicholas Meyer's legacy, for you ... 100%. Starting with The Wrath of Khan. And it's one that I, as a TREK fan, could do without! Leave ... the sacredness ... alones!!!
^ Whoa, whoa, whoa. Nobody forced the directors after Meyer to blow up the Enterprise (multiple times), nor Abrams to blow up Vulcan.
Spock's death in TWOK is one of Trek's most genuinely powerful dramatic moments and very probably helped inspire the stronger dramatic aspirations of the televised Trek that followed it. That's Meyer's most important legacy, and if the franchise goes back to the real lessons in it -- the need to take Trek back to the fundamentals and push it to do better storytelling -- it can only be better off.
As for blowing up Vulcan, it was mainly insulting insofar as it was part of ST09's beat-by-beat aping of Star Wars with Vulcan standing in for Alderaan; one of the many ways in which Abrams conveyed that he was vaguely embarrassed to be making a Trek movie and would far rather be working on another franchise. (It also didn't help that they had PrimeSpock come back in time and hand over formulas for "transwarp beaming" to our heroes... but forget to tell them about the Slingshot Maneuver that they could use to go back in time and maybe save Vulcan.)
Spock's death in TWOK is one of Trek's most genuinely powerful dramatic moments and very probably helped inspire the stronger dramatic aspirations of the televised Trek that followed it. That's Meyer's most important legacy, and if the franchise goes back to the real lessons in it -- the need to take Trek back to the fundamentals and push it to do better storytelling -- it can only be better off.
As for blowing up Vulcan, it was mainly insulting insofar as it was part of ST09's beat-by-beat aping of Star Wars with Vulcan standing in for Alderaan; one of the many ways in which Abrams conveyed that he was vaguely embarrassed to be making a Trek movie and would far rather be working on another franchise. (It also didn't help that they had PrimeSpock come back in time and hand over formulas for "transwarp beaming" to our heroes... but forget to tell them about the Slingshot Maneuver that they could use to go back in time and maybe save Vulcan.)
That's hard to pin on just JJ & Co. Opening up that can of worms in either timeline becomes a hypothetical nightmare and a very slippery slope.
Or maybe that's the grand plan and the Spock Prime scenes are already filmed. We get 1-4 more NuTrek movies to keep everyone entertained and talking about Trek for the next decade. Then the last hour of the last movie, Prime Spock says 'Enough', grabs a ship, slingshots around the sun to the mid 80's, grabs a pair of humpback whales, slingshots forward to warn the UFP of when and where the Nerada will show so they can blow it to pieces as its coming through. Now Kirk can be born in Iowa. His next stop is to intercept the Reliant making sure that they note the changes to the Ceti Alpha system and leave quarantine marker around Ceti Alpha V. Now its forward to San Francisco to drop the whales. While there he hunts down Sybok and has him committed. Now just a little forward, he stops to warn himself of the conspiracy against Gorkon and the peace mission so that he can put a plan in place to squash it before it becomes a threat. He also tells the other him to suggest to Kirk that on the launch day for Ent B, to send a red shirt down to fix the broken bits. Next trip forward is a quick stop to tell Picard to take Soran into custody. Finally he can get back to where it all started, but instead he shows up a month early to let himself know that they're going to need a little extra time to save Romulus.
All nice and tidy, right? Not so much.
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Having Spock run around fixing the entire timeline would obviously not work. But having time travel as the basic premise of your story, and working PrimeSpock into it, and having him contribute information to resolve the story... and having it not occur to him to try to save the planet he just watched get destroyed with just a smidge more time travel? It's... weird and awkward, to put it mildly.
If it had been rebooted with the new rules being "none of that time-travel horsesh*t" that would be different.
Thanks.
And I understand what you are saying. But like I said, it becomes a slippery slope. If you are going to reset one thing, where do you stop? That's what my hypothetical is meant to point out.
However, and more to your point, how do you restore Vulcan and still win the day? At what point do you go back? What point do you go back too? The Narada was future tech and almost unstoppable. Do you send a small fleet back to intercept the Narada as it is first coming through and still defenseless? Nero hasn't done anything yet. Imagine the backlash.
Unfortunately, the only way additional time travel would have worked was if ST09 was a one off movie. Spock Prime could have said something like "I must repair the damage I have caused." With that, he could slingshot back to before the Kelvin incident and then forward just in time to save Romulus, thus erasing the events of ST09.
The problem is, even that wouldn't be guaranteed to work. There's always the butterfly effect. Voyager was my least favorite Star Trek series, but Janeway had one of my favorite lines. Temporal Mechanics give me a headache.
^
True. But without Spock Prime ST09 unravels from the get go. The future info is paramount for the casual viewer to understand that this really is an alternate time line. Without Nero knowing of Spock Prime, there would be no reason for him not the take out Enterprise at Vulcan.
I understand what you are saying. But to be honest, I have bigger issues with Generations and Nemesis. At least 09 is operating in an alternate time line, instead of mucking up the prime one.
True. But without Spock Prime ST09 unravels from the get go. The future info is paramount for the casual viewer to understand that this really is an alternate time line. Without Nero knowing of Spock Prime, there would be no reason for him not the take out Enterprise at Vulcan.
I understand what you are saying. But to be honest, I have bigger issues with Generations and Nemesis. At least 09 is operating in an alternate time line, instead of mucking up the prime one.
Clark Terrell
Lieutenant Commander
I'd have preferred Generations never happened if only so Kirk's ultimate fate remained unknown after TUC. Seeing him in the captain's chair surrounded by his crew and friends was the right way for him to go out, not bleeding to death internally with someone he barely knows hovering over him. I actually do like the scene where Picard stands at attention over his grave as the Alexander Courage theme swells, but that's the only worthy moment in an otherwise dull film.
And Nemesis just plain sucked aside from Commander Donatra.
Kirk's death in Generations was the least of my problems with that film. Frankly, the idea of a great, heroic figure dying in unideal, un-picturesque circumstances was of itself a good one: Trek, especially Movie-Trek, was in the wake of TWOK far too often hostage to mawkish fanboisie sentimentality at the expense of actual drama.
The sight of Kirk expiring ignobly -- but still in a good cause -- under a bridge was a rare instance of actual drama in the post-TWOK, pre-Abrams movies, something that actually felt like Kirk unscripted and without the Great Bird(s) of the Galaxy(Universe) artificially tilting everything in his favour.
(And as compensation, Kirk got a quite fabulous final quip in "It was... fun." I've never bought a piece of Trek memorabilia, but I came within an ace of buying one of those shirts.)
Aside from pretty much the entire plot and concept: Enterprise-D's illogical, contrived demise was a hell of a lot worse than Kirk's death.
The sight of Kirk expiring ignobly -- but still in a good cause -- under a bridge was a rare instance of actual drama in the post-TWOK, pre-Abrams movies, something that actually felt like Kirk unscripted and without the Great Bird(s) of the Galaxy(Universe) artificially tilting everything in his favour.
(And as compensation, Kirk got a quite fabulous final quip in "It was... fun." I've never bought a piece of Trek memorabilia, but I came within an ace of buying one of those shirts.)
Aside from pretty much the entire plot and concept: Enterprise-D's illogical, contrived demise was a hell of a lot worse than Kirk's death.
When the ENTERPRISE-D met its untimely demise ... I died, inside!
After the Warp Core Breach and the saucer seperated - for a moment - I even fantasized that the saucer section might still be $aved ... somehow. But, then, to see it skipping and skidding across a model train set tree grove, my hopes were then callously dashed ... and my greatest fears were realized! After seeing the "D" in a big, event movie - unmolested, without any whimsical embellishments, other than that having to do with lighting - I was in my glory!
But, once again, this insistance on blowing up the ENTERPRISE just had to become this Time-Honoured Tradition! Whose sole purpose is to annoy ... irritate ... and incense ... all for publicity and supposed shock "value." Couldn't my beloved NEXT GENERATION be spared from these ill-conceived trappings? TNG works just fine on its own! No need to tinker. To adust. To "reimagine." They should've trusted those things that worked! Like the beautiful and stately ENTERPRISE-D model. At least Riker showed some regret over her loss! Good ol' reliable Riker ...
After the Warp Core Breach and the saucer seperated - for a moment - I even fantasized that the saucer section might still be $aved ... somehow. But, then, to see it skipping and skidding across a model train set tree grove, my hopes were then callously dashed ... and my greatest fears were realized! After seeing the "D" in a big, event movie - unmolested, without any whimsical embellishments, other than that having to do with lighting - I was in my glory!
But, once again, this insistance on blowing up the ENTERPRISE just had to become this Time-Honoured Tradition! Whose sole purpose is to annoy ... irritate ... and incense ... all for publicity and supposed shock "value." Couldn't my beloved NEXT GENERATION be spared from these ill-conceived trappings? TNG works just fine on its own! No need to tinker. To adust. To "reimagine." They should've trusted those things that worked! Like the beautiful and stately ENTERPRISE-D model. At least Riker showed some regret over her loss! Good ol' reliable Riker ...
I was SHOCKED when the Enterprise-D was destroyed.... in "Time Squared". Post-"Cause and Effect", I was as numb to the hero ship blowing up as is humanly possible.
I thing the most shocking Star Trek "death," after Spock (until he returned), is unquestionably Enterprise 1701. I remember being so upset over it. It really did seem like Trek was over, because I remember thinking "How can you have Trek without the Enterprise?" Mind you, this was before all the other Enterprise incarnations! I also remember hating the Excelsior so much back then, and I was fearful the crew would be stuck with the Excelsior!
I remember feeling so relieved in 1986 after hearing my friends (who saw the movie before I did) talking about the end of TVH, where the crew gets a new Enterprise. However, one friend insisted it was named Enterprise II, LOL! But I, too, was disappointed with the E-A's portrayal in TFF as a jalopy, rather than the pride of the fleet.
I was just as saddened to see the Enterprise-D "die" as well, especially as unceremoniously as it did. However, unlike 1701, we saw the Enterprise "die" at least half a dozen times in alternate timelines (Time Squared, Yesterday's Enterprise, Cause and Effect, Parallels, All Good Things) , and "sort of" with Yamato (tng) and Odyssey (ds9), and Galaxy being heavily damaged (ds9), so when E-D did meet its end, it wasn't as shocking. Not to mention, the "true death" of E-D in Generations was not nearly as heroic...getting taken out with an obsolete BOP through trickery, then the saucer crashing.
Well, I have to agree out of all the ships, Enterprise 1701 was the most like an actual character, although I would argue that 1701-D was a character, too. Maybe less so than 1701, but still think it did serve as a character in much the same way as the 1701. The big difference I think was how much Kirk was attached to 1701, VS Picard's more dispassionate attitude towards his two Enterprises.
I agree that I never got the sense Picard was all that attached to Enterprise-D, and Stargazer was his "true" ship, as far as he was concerned. He said as much in Relics, didn't he? He was even less attached with Enterprise-E with his "Meh, there's more letters in the alpha bet," statement. I mean he might have been proud to be captain of the flag ship of starfleet, but he didn't seem attached to the ship itself.
Riker on the other hand, seemed more attached to Enterprise-D, arguably approaching on par with Kirk's love for 1701. He gave up commands of his own, just to stay on board as first officer. The Romulans must have picked up his desire to command the Enterprise-D, in Future Imperfect, since they made him "captain" of the E-D. In AGT, Admiral Riker saved E-D from mothball, and made her his personal flagship. And finally, in Generations, it was Riker, not Picard, who lamented E-D's destruction, stating he always thought he would have a shot at commanding her one day.
I remember feeling so relieved in 1986 after hearing my friends (who saw the movie before I did) talking about the end of TVH, where the crew gets a new Enterprise. However, one friend insisted it was named Enterprise II, LOL! But I, too, was disappointed with the E-A's portrayal in TFF as a jalopy, rather than the pride of the fleet.
I was just as saddened to see the Enterprise-D "die" as well, especially as unceremoniously as it did. However, unlike 1701, we saw the Enterprise "die" at least half a dozen times in alternate timelines (Time Squared, Yesterday's Enterprise, Cause and Effect, Parallels, All Good Things) , and "sort of" with Yamato (tng) and Odyssey (ds9), and Galaxy being heavily damaged (ds9), so when E-D did meet its end, it wasn't as shocking. Not to mention, the "true death" of E-D in Generations was not nearly as heroic...getting taken out with an obsolete BOP through trickery, then the saucer crashing.
Well, I have to agree out of all the ships, Enterprise 1701 was the most like an actual character, although I would argue that 1701-D was a character, too. Maybe less so than 1701, but still think it did serve as a character in much the same way as the 1701. The big difference I think was how much Kirk was attached to 1701, VS Picard's more dispassionate attitude towards his two Enterprises.
I agree that I never got the sense Picard was all that attached to Enterprise-D, and Stargazer was his "true" ship, as far as he was concerned. He said as much in Relics, didn't he? He was even less attached with Enterprise-E with his "Meh, there's more letters in the alpha bet," statement. I mean he might have been proud to be captain of the flag ship of starfleet, but he didn't seem attached to the ship itself.
Riker on the other hand, seemed more attached to Enterprise-D, arguably approaching on par with Kirk's love for 1701. He gave up commands of his own, just to stay on board as first officer. The Romulans must have picked up his desire to command the Enterprise-D, in Future Imperfect, since they made him "captain" of the E-D. In AGT, Admiral Riker saved E-D from mothball, and made her his personal flagship. And finally, in Generations, it was Riker, not Picard, who lamented E-D's destruction, stating he always thought he would have a shot at commanding her one day.
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Yet, there She is...her sleek design sliding inside our esthete...ample nacelles and all...her trailing scent a hint of dilithium mixed with a touch of warp core fluid...her silken duranium/tritanium alloy skin whispering as she goes by...saucer section fully detachable to slip out of danger...leaving the battle bridge to defend her...and her armaments...
Oh, her armaments...
Photon (say it, "photon") torpedoes...such shafts of power...phasers...note how to even pronounce her attributes of strength forces our teeth beneath our lips..."fffffaser"..."fffffoton"...and her delivery systems?...multiple rapid fire high power cannons of such delicious potential for obliteration...the little death?...perhaps...
...shuttle bay welcoming shuttle craft home...womb-like...opening...closing...affirming...releasing again...
...she will take each one of your atoms...EACH one...take them deep into her buffers...close...perfectly...and when she is done, reform you with utter precision...and she will do it as many times as you like...
even the command,
"Energize"...
...oh, yes...we want that...we write about it...we ponder its power and effect...
And finally...her speed...sub...for some...1/2 light...for others slightly more bold...but for those who are truly not afraid, Warps of speed...2...Four (play?)....7,8,9, and the peak...9.9....barely survivable...but what memories if one did...aching...heaving speed...
...see her...need her...want her...She is...
Enterprise...Ode to a Lady...
Oh, her armaments...
Photon (say it, "photon") torpedoes...such shafts of power...phasers...note how to even pronounce her attributes of strength forces our teeth beneath our lips..."fffffaser"..."fffffoton"...and her delivery systems?...multiple rapid fire high power cannons of such delicious potential for obliteration...the little death?...perhaps...
...shuttle bay welcoming shuttle craft home...womb-like...opening...closing...affirming...releasing again...
...she will take each one of your atoms...EACH one...take them deep into her buffers...close...perfectly...and when she is done, reform you with utter precision...and she will do it as many times as you like...
even the command,
"Energize"...
...oh, yes...we want that...we write about it...we ponder its power and effect...
And finally...her speed...sub...for some...1/2 light...for others slightly more bold...but for those who are truly not afraid, Warps of speed...2...Four (play?)....7,8,9, and the peak...9.9....barely survivable...but what memories if one did...aching...heaving speed...
...see her...need her...want her...She is...
Enterprise...Ode to a Lady...
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