Enterprise-D destruction

[Tenacity]

I always hated the bit where Riker says to Worf: " we have to hit them the instant they begin to cloak" and then when the moment comes, Riker pauses dramatically and says "Mr Worf...........Fire!" Then the torpedo slowly streaks towards the BOP. Much better to have re-edited that scene.

Enterprise Bridge
Data: Initiating ionic pulse.

Cut to BOP bridge.
Lursa: Target their bridge.
Klingon: We are cloaking!

Cut to Enterprise bridge.
Riker (no pause): Fire.

Cut to BOP view screen.
Image of Enterprise aft torpedo firing.
Voice over: Our shields are down!

Cut to BOP bridge.
Sisters look at each other.

I think the movie should have shown the torpedo separating into multiple torpedoes just prior to exploding.

 

[DonIago]

Well, considering the E-D fired multiple aft torpedos in its very first episode, that it only fired one here almost seems like a missed opportunity for symmetry.

...also kind of pathetic. I mean, what if the BoP had survived the torpedo hit (or it had missed) and kept pasting the E-D?

 

[Tenacity]

Firing a single torpedo could of been the result of the attack to the Enterprise. The one torpedo was all Worf could manage given the damage.

Once cloaked the BOP couldn't continue to fire.

With the (assumed) on-going ionic pulse the BOP might of had difficulty uncloaking, if they did uncloak the ionic pulse "trick" could have been used multiple times. Giving the Enterprise at least some respite.

A ship under cloak can be tracked with difficulty (the Enterprise did track Romulans under cloak), so the BOP wouldn't have been completely safe from the Enterprise's fire.

 

[DonIago]

We've seen BoPs fire under cloak before, so to assume they couldn't do so again could be a bad call.

The fact that it's called a "pulse" suggests to me that it was a...well, pulse. And if I was the Klingons the first thing I'd do was target the bridge if I survived a trick like that, assuming I couldn't specifically target whatever generated the pulse itself.

It seems like a case of having your cake and eating it too to suggest the ship was too damaged to fire more than one torpedo yet not too damaged to track a ship under cloak.

 

[Lance]

See, the thing that gets me is the lack of ambition

Gens is clearly being made on the cheap. Like so many of the Star Trek movies were, relative to blockbusters.

But the battle sequence deserved to have the money thrown at it.

Imagine an alternative version where the lumbering 'Goliath' starship is being circle strafed by the BOP, still putting up a dramatic fight and with the incredible image of Veridian III in space as a backdrop

Imagine it, as a battle scene taking place in close proximity of a planet, perhaps even actually in orbit

How exciting! How big, how theatrical! What a way to say, "yes folks, we're no longer confined to the small screen, watch the Enterprise D dogfighting it out in orbit of a planet!"

Instead they spent all they had on location shoots (the HMS Enterprise which doesn't actually look expensive but was; and schleping out to the Nevada desert which manages to look vast in a couple shots but otherwise looks exactly like the usual Vasquez Rocks location the TV crew went out to every time they wanted to suggest 'desert planet'), and the Stellar Cartography set (impressive for the first time you seen it in 1994; but ultimately just one exposition scene and again the money spent on building this huge three-level set really doesn't come across on screen), while the big set-piece battle sequence mostly happens off screen and is only conveyed to us via the patented Star-Trek-shake-the-camera-and-make-the-actors-wobble-in-their-seats effect... we should've been feeling every barrage and torpedo shot in full surround and instead it looks like business as usual... in fact, TNG the series had more impressive battle scenes, that's the real tragedy of this one.

 

[Tenacity]

We've seen BoPs fire under cloak before, so to assume they couldn't do so again could be a bad call.

Not BOPs (plural) but rather BOP (singular), and other than that one the ability to fire cloaked was never seen again. So not that bad a call.

to suggest the ship was too damaged to fire more than one torpedo yet not too damaged to track a ship under cloak.

Different systems.

 

[thribs]

It's always been my thought that, in-universe, the Sovereign Class was obviously already being designed and prototyped even in TNG's later seasons, and that had the 1701-D not been destroyed there is no assumption that the Enterprise name would've passed on to a Sovereign just because the Sovereign is being rolled out.

I don’t know. The ship was only 8 years old at that point and I would think it would be at least 20 before they put it out to pasture.
By that time, there would have been another class out to carry the Enterprise name.

 

[suarezguy]

Though the type of ship was old, dating back to the time of the original cast movies, was the Bird of Prey considered an outdated/weak ship during TNG? I don't think so, they were still widely used and considered good vessels by Klingons in TNG.

 

[BigDaveX]

Though the type of ship was old, dating back to the time of the original cast movies, was the Bird of Prey considered an outdated/weak ship during TNG? I don't think so, they were still widely used and considered good vessels by Klingons in TNG.

Depended on the episode - I think the unwritten implication was that there were various different types of BoP (even if they looked outwardly identical), some of which could stand toe-to-toe with the Enterprise, and others of which would have been little more than a nuisance. For whatever reason, however, the writers on Generations chose to depict the Duras Sisters commanding one of the latter variety.

 

[JamesRye]

Enterprise Bridge
Data: Initiating ionic pulse.

Cut to BOP bridge.
Lursa: Target their bridge.
Klingon: We are cloaking!

Cut to Enterprise bridge.
Riker (no pause): Fire.

Cut to BOP view screen.
Image of Enterprise aft torpedo firing.
Voice over: Our shields are down!

Cut to BOP bridge.
Sisters look at each other.

I think the movie should have shown the torpedo separating into multiple torpedoes just prior to exploding.

Man! You made me go back and watch this and you're right that my memory was a bit faulty with the exact dialog. Nonetheless, I think the general point I make about pacing is valid.

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At 2:29 in the video, Riker declares that they will have 2 seconds of vulnerability.
OK, at 2:42 in the video Riker orders a SPREAD of photon torpedoes (though Worf only shoots one)
Then there's a whip pan to Riker at 3:19, by the time he's finished saying "Fire", it's 3:22 into the clip. The torpedo impacts at 3:31, a whopping 13 seconds since the Klingons cloaked. So much for 2 seconds of vulnerability!

 

[Tenacity]

Man! You made me go back and watch this

Please understand, what I posted is what I think it should have been, and not what actually happen in the movie.

 

[Lance]

Depended on the episode - I think the unwritten implication was that there were various different types of BoP (even if they looked outwardly identical), some of which could stand toe-to-toe with the Enterprise, and others of which would have been little more than a nuisance. For whatever reason, however, the writers on Generations chose to depict the Duras Sisters commanding one of the latter variety.

ISTR there being a suggestion of some being larger and others smaller, though all were shot using the same model

Man! You made me go back and watch this and you're right that my memory was a bit faulty with the exact dialog. Nonetheless, I think the general point I make about pacing is valid.

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At 2:29 in the video, Riker declares that they will have 2 seconds of vulnerability.
OK, at 2:42 in the video Riker orders a SPREAD of photon torpedoes (though Worf only shoots one)
Then there's a whip pan to Riker at 3:19, by the time he's finished saying "Fire", it's 3:22 into the clip. The torpedo impacts at 3:31, a whopping 13 seconds since the Klingons cloaked. So much for 2 seconds of vulnerability!

Hollywood countdowns always use some kind of weird 'elastic band' time

 

[JamesRye]

Imagine how cool it could've been. You could have had the lines about two seconds of vulnerability and having to hit them the instant they begin to decloak. Data could've said "initiating ionic pulse", Worf could have responded with "torpedoes away", cut to a space shot of the big D launching two volleys of 3 torpedoes. The first two impact the shields, which are still up, but the third sends the BOP into a spin. The second volley is right behind and the first and clips the spinning BOB, shearing off a wing. The remaining two obliterate the ship. Cut back to Data's "YES"

 

[DonIago]

Can we just cut back to the extra in the back doing the "YES" gesture? (ducks)

 

[General_Phoenix]

I didn't really like the destruction of the Enterprise D. The E-D was every bit a character to Next Gen as the crew was, just didn't really feel the same without her.

Longevity is what impresses me, I would have liked to see the E-D last 100 years...or atleast 50. Destroying ships looks cool, but destruction of a Fed ship should be a huge ordeal, not to mention all the reprimanding, and court martial stuff that probably follows the loss of such a vessel.

Plus having the E-D lose to a B'rel class BOP leaves a bad taste in my mouth all these years later. Should've been a Next Gen Romulan ship. A D'deridex, or a Klingon Vorcha.

 

[Lance]

Longevity is what impresses me, I would have liked to see the E-D last 100 years...or atleast 50. Destroying ships looks cool, but destruction of a Fed ship should be a huge ordeal, not to mention all the reprimanding, and court martial stuff that probably follows the loss of such a vessel.

See this is a point. "The Battle" and "Measure of a Man" both show that Starfleet's process for the destruction or loss of a ship is extensive and punishments strict. It seems Picard spent a good part of decades in the wilderness for what happened to Stargazer. Maybe in the case of 1701-D there are circumstances that don't stick the label on Picard (as he wasn't aboard at the time, though it was his idea to leave his ship when the captain maybe shouldn't have), but certainly the destruction of the ship should have been investigated more thoroughly, and the entire crew shouldn't have been handed the brand new state-of-the-art flagship within twelve months or less of being in charge when the old one went down in flames.

 

[BigDaveX]

See this is a point. "The Battle" and "Measure of a Man" both show that Starfleet's process for the destruction or loss of a ship is extensive and punishments strict. It seems Picard spent a good part of decades in the wilderness for what happened to Stargazer. Maybe in the case of 1701-D there are circumstances that don't stick the label on Picard (as he wasn't aboard at the time, though it was his idea to leave his ship when the captain maybe shouldn't have), but certainly the destruction of the ship should have been investigated more thoroughly, and the entire crew shouldn't have been handed the brand new state-of-the-art flagship within twelve months or less of being in charge when the old one went down in flames.

I think the circumstances in-universe were a little different when the Stargazer and Enterprise-D were destroyed. When the former ship was destroyed it was indicated that the Federation hadn't faced any major threats (outside of a border skirmish with the Cardassians) for quite some time, so they could probably afford to shuffle Picard off to some desk job for as long as they did.

On the other hand, when the Enterprise-D was destroyed, it had only been a few years since Starfleet took massive losses from the Borg invasion, then a few months or so after that they got a first-hand demonstration of the threat posed by the Dominion when they completely obliterated Tain's fleet, and then not long after that the Klingons pulled out of their peace treaty and were clearly chomping at the bit for any excuse to attack the Federation. With all that in mind, Starfleet probably decided that, dumb as the crew's actions in Generations were, they really couldn't afford to sideline such an experienced crew, and gave them the Enterprise-E.

 

[Lance]

I suppose the thing Riker has going for him is Wolf 359. Even if the man was having a bad hair day when he let the 1701-D go down (and his fringe is more than usually scruffy in Generations ), he was still the guy who commanded the ship that stopped the Borg from destroying Earth. That definitely should count for something.

 

[Peach Wookiee]

Can we just cut back to the extra in the back doing the "YES" gesture? (ducks)

I gave that guy a backstory in my head. He'd just been assigned to the Enterprise, fresh out of the Academy, and this was his first space battle. He'd have done what Data did, but was trying to hold back.

 

[Tenacity]

he was still the guy who commanded the ship that stopped the Borg from destroying Earth

Picard and Data, not Riker. Picard suggested put them to sleep, and Data figured out how to do it.

Riker wanted to ram the cube.