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Engineering -- Warp Engines?

CorporalCaptainBy the way said:
Star Trek Giant Poster Books. [/I]When I saw that I remember thinking that he might be suggesting that the TAS:One of Our Planets Is Missing segment took place inside one of the warp nacelles.
I think there's no doubt - aside from anything else, there are simply way too many tubes shown to be the same ones as behind the engine room mesh. They also look and behave a lot differently. And slope at a different angle (etc etc)

(click for larger pics)
 
^Mytran and CorporalCaptain, Scotty says in that ep that they intend to put the beamed aboard anti-matter in the nacelle(s) so it's pretty clear that the area shown is inside a nacelle. Interestingly those pulsing tubes, that Mandel calls "cycling stations" in his blueprints, look like the predecessors to the "plasma injectors" of TNG era.

CorporalCaptain and blssdwlf, It's clear that FJ originally had the idea that it was the warped "fabric of space-time" itself that was flowing in and through the nacelles, what we would call today "the quantum fluctuations in the vacuum". Mandel evidently missunderstood this and assumed only a "matter" intake? Then, Sternbach, I believe it was, picked up this and gave it the name "Bussard" collectors, further perpetuating the error? So there's been an unintentional "dumbing down" of the concept over the years. But I guess all these variations are not mutually exclusive so we have some wiggle room?


@CRA, "Gene Roddenberry was pretty specific when setting up the concept of how the ship got around: Warp drive, powered by matter/antimatter annihilation. Apparently, all those technical people that GR talked to either never mentioned ZPE, or dismissed it as inadequate (or both) and therefore has no bearing whatsoever with regard to what the writers were thinking when they were writing their scripts"

To be sure, I dont think the concept of ZPE was even a gleam in any physicists eye back at that time, and I'm sure it wasn't part of the intentional background tech developed for the show? But we also know there was the habit of (TOS) writers to routinely ascribe "magic" technology to the future they were creating, so my guess is (based on the evidence from various episodes) they just assumed that "somehow" dilithium created/generated/converted/activated/warmed up, etc. (take your pick) the anti-matter that was then used for the fuel in the "warp engines"? But since we now know of such a thing as ZPE and related concepts, and star trek is supposed to take place in our future, then it behooves us tech trek fans to keep up with the times and incorporate the latest concepts, especially if -as luck would have- it helps explain that "magic" technology?
 
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Thanks! This was very informative, and explains a lot.

I agree: try as they might, warp speeds could not be used consistently in TNG either. If the story demanded that they return to Earth now, get from the Neutral Zone to any other place now, then that's just what they did. The fundamental problem is that the galaxy is much bigger than anything that makes Star Trek feasible, probably even by the 23rd century.

Not only that, but the spoken dialogue complicates matters further. Consider this:

Most consistently, starships throughout most of TOS, TNG, DS9, ENT and even VOY, typically are ordered to lumber along at Warp 2, give or take. Sometimes they may go Warp 3 or 4, but faster than that seems to be almost a special occasion. There are many occasions where Kirk and Picard simply order Warp 1. If those speeds are relatively slow in the galactic scheme of things, such an order would be frivolous at best.

We could retcon and assume (without any canon evidence) that starships typically surge warp velocities after such low-warp orders. But there are other indications which lead me to believe that would not be necessary...

In DS9's "Emissary", when Sisko's Runabout first passes through the Bajoran wormhole, Sisko uses the Runabout's computer to determine their location based on the exploration of a probe from the 22nd century. Based on what we know from ENT, it seems highly unlikely that such a probe, even from a few decades after "All Good Things..." would be able to manage a speed better than Warp 3. I think Warp 2 would be pushing it.

And in TOS "Friday's Child", Sulu muses that "the best a frieghter could manage is Warp 2", to which Scott admonishes "I'm well aware of a freighter's maximum speed, Mr. Sulu." And that's in the later half of the 23rd century.

So if non-military probes and frieghters aren't expected to do better that Warp 3, for sake of argument, even in the 23rd century, then how do probes manage to check out the far side of the Galaxy?

Let's assume that probes of the 22nd century were slower, maybe only Warp 1.5. Now, let's assume that one of the new Federation's initiatives was to launch enormous waves of probes all over the Galaxy to learn and explore. Say, in the 40 years from 2161 to 2201, the young Federation launched at least 10,000 probes, and of those probes, most reported back from at least the first leg of their voyages. But the further they get away from home, the more likely they would be to be damaged or destroyed by natural phenomena such as quantum filaments, ion storms, dark matter/energy, or hostile aliens. So maybe as many as 99 percent of the probes eventually parish in deep space. But many of them do send back telemetry and at least 100 of them survived to fully explore their assigned routes.

If we follow Cochrane's Formula from MAPS, at least some of these probes may have been able to navigate along routes where Cochrane's Variable would be favorable to warp travel, even at speeds under Warp 2. So it would be entirely possible for a few of the probes to make it to the far edge of the Galaxy well before the DS9.
 
...Or then a probe can be thousands of times faster than a starship, just like a bullet can be hundreds of times faster than an aircraft. (Although it has been a while since the difference between bullets and aircraft was that extreme.)

Back in "Emissary", we could argue that Quadros One never reached the Gamma Quadrant; the data on Gamma star systems could have been obtained by long baseline interferometry where Quadros One acted as one end of the base, still well within Alpha or Beta. But "Friendship One" establishes that probes from the 21st century (and worse still, from the primitive planet Earth rather than from some more advanced 21st century culture) did physically reach Delta, tens of thousands of lightyears away. We have no direct evidence that they would have flown at warp factors lower than three, so we aren't exactly forced to believe in regions of space where low warp factors provide high speed; we can instead choose to believe that the early probes flew at warp 18 as a matter of routine.

Certainly the rest of Trek does not seem to provide evidence of "express lanes"; even small variations in the speed allowed for by local conditions (say, subspace sandbars or tachyon eddies) make our heroes go aah-ooh, and the only true "highways" ever actually mentioned are the wormholes.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Certainly the rest of Trek does not seem to provide evidence of "express lanes"; even small variations in the speed allowed for by local conditions (say, subspace sandbars or tachyon eddies) make our heroes go aah-ooh, and the only true "highways" ever actually mentioned are the wormholes.
And maybe the (artificially created) transwarp conduit.
 
...Which wouldn't help much in explaining superfast travel by hero or sidekick vessels and probes, as those conduits are only accessible to supervillains or very clever heroes who outwit supervillains and steal their conduit keys.

Timo Saloniemi
 
...Or then a probe can be thousands of times faster than a starship, just like a bullet can be hundreds of times faster than an aircraft. (Although it has been a while since the difference between bullets and aircraft was that extreme.)

Back in "Emissary", we could argue that Quadros One never reached the Gamma Quadrant; the data on Gamma star systems could have been obtained by long baseline interferometry where Quadros One acted as one end of the base, still well within Alpha or Beta. But "Friendship One" establishes that probes from the 21st century (and worse still, from the primitive planet Earth rather than from some more advanced 21st century culture) did physically reach Delta, tens of thousands of lightyears away. We have no direct evidence that they would have flown at warp factors lower than three, so we aren't exactly forced to believe in regions of space where low warp factors provide high speed; we can instead choose to believe that the early probes flew at warp 18 as a matter of routine.

But if a probe could go Warp 18, wouldn't a shuttlecraft at least be able to outrun the Enterprise? Spock had the Enterprise leaving Starbase 11's shuttlecraft in the dust.

Certainly the rest of Trek does not seem to provide evidence of "express lanes"; even small variations in the speed allowed for by local conditions (say, subspace sandbars or tachyon eddies) make our heroes go aah-ooh, and the only true "highways" ever actually mentioned are the wormholes.

Timo Saloniemi

Not "express lanes". Consider them to be environmental factors that affect certain regions of space more than others. More like trade winds.

MAPS made the flawed supposition that gravitation fields affected subspace. I doubt that would work. Dark matter and dark energy phenomena on the other hand, pose interesting possibilities. Consider that in "Where No Man Has Gone Before", Kirk ordered an unprepared Enterprise to fly into the Negative Energy Barrier at Warp 1, causing the warp engines to burn out. Perhaps dark matter and/or dark energy can have profound effects on subpsace/warp machinery and warp propulsion. Mess with it, and it'll come back and bite you. Learn how to harness it, and you get enhanced warp speeds via Cochrane's Variable.
 
...Which wouldn't help much in explaining superfast travel by hero or sidekick vessels and probes, as those conduits are only accessible to supervillains or very clever heroes who outwit supervillains and steal their conduit keys.

Timo Saloniemi

:guffaw:
 
MAPS made the flawed supposition that gravitation fields affected subspace. I doubt that would work. Dark matter and dark energy phenomena on the other hand, pose interesting possibilities. Consider that in "Where No Man Has Gone Before", Kirk ordered an unprepared Enterprise to fly into the Negative Energy Barrier at Warp 1, causing the warp engines to burn out. Perhaps dark matter and/or dark energy can have profound effects on subpsace/warp machinery and warp propulsion. Mess with it, and it'll come back and bite you. Learn how to harness it, and you get enhanced warp speeds via Cochrane's Variable.

It could be a host of items that could affect warp drive (in TOS) that we might not be able to pin down due to a certain amount of vagueness but I think gravity does affect TOS warp drives :)


  • Strong gravity from a "black star" dragged the Enterprise toward it ("Tomorrow is Yesterday").
  • Warp travel within the orbit of the 3rd planet towards the sun seems to significantly slow the ship down ("Tomorrow is Yesterday", "Operation:Annihilate", "The Voyage Home").
  • Warp travel next to a planet/orbiting a planet also seems to slow the ship down as well ("The Voyage Home")

  • Apparently ships can seek out the magnetic attraction from the sun as well while at warp ("Tomorrow is Yesterday") and they are affected by magnetic fields.

  • Ion storms can give a ship quite a turbulent ride, possibly even slowing it down requiring more effort to warp through ("Court Martial")
  • "Negative energy" from the galactic energy barrier can overload the engines
  • And certain types of tractor beams can also strain/overload warp drives as well ("The Corbomite Maneuver", "The Motion Picture")
Now, since we're experimenting outside of the box... How do we know that subspace has an effect or is involved in TOS's warp drive? In the episodes where there is high subspace interference we've never seen the warp drive impacted by it directly. (Like in "The Doomsday Machine", the subspace dampening affected power generation, but the Enterprise's top speed was never mentioned to be limited by it.)

So perhaps in TOS, going at Warp 1 inside a star system might be totally different and faster outside of the system or analogous to a ship going from shallow water to open sea...
 
Your last sentence hit the nail on the head, I think? Planets and suns warp space both individualy and collectively, so it stands to reason that these and other variables would add or subtract from the ships warp facters?
 
@CRA, "Gene Roddenberry was pretty specific when setting up the concept of how the ship got around: Warp drive, powered by matter/antimatter annihilation. Apparently, all those technical people that GR talked to either never mentioned ZPE, or dismissed it as inadequate (or both) and therefore has no bearing whatsoever with regard to what the writers were thinking when they were writing their scripts"
To be sure, I dont think the concept of ZPE was even a gleam in any physicists eye back at that time, and I'm sure it wasn't part of the intentional background tech developed for the show? But we also know there was the habit of (TOS) writers to routinely ascribe "magic" technology to the future they were creating, so my guess is (based on the evidence from various episodes) they just assumed that "somehow" dilithium created/generated/converted/activated/warmed up, etc. (take your pick) the anti-matter that was then used for the fuel in the "warp engines"? But since we now know of such a thing as ZPE and related concepts, and star trek is supposed to take place in our future, then it behooves us tech trek fans to keep up with the times and incorporate the latest concepts, especially if -as luck would have- it helps explain that "magic" technology?
Actually, the theory of ZPE goes back to 1900, and I think it's safe to say that somebody that GR talked to had at least heard of it, so the fact that it's not a part of the setup is significant.

And the historical deviations in Star Trek's history (not the things that haven't come true, but the stuff that was off when they wrote it, like Clark Gable being a movie star in 1930, when in actuality, he was still a bit player at the time) shows that Star Trek is NOT our future.
 
But if a probe could go Warp 18, wouldn't a shuttlecraft at least be able to outrun the Enterprise?

Not really - if the difference between a probe and a starship/shuttle is that the former is devoid of vulnerable lifeforms and thus can use a more dangerous but also more powerful propulsion system.

Also, you seem to assume that interstellar probes would be small things. Yet we've never seen one close enough to determine scale. The only such probe we've actually seen "live" was Friendship One, for which no scale could be determined, but the artist had this idea:

http://drexfiles.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/friendship01_launchpad_0.jpg

(Like in "The Doomsday Machine", the subspace dampening affected power generation, but the Enterprise's top speed was never mentioned to be limited by it.)

...Yet the episode would make all the more sense if the hero ship indeed was deprived of the ability to go to high warp.

So perhaps in TOS, going at Warp 1 inside a star system might be totally different and faster outside of the system or analogous to a ship going from shallow water to open sea...

Not just in TOS, mind you. This would explain why our heroes so often decide not to visit a star system directly, but instead send a shuttlecraft in there puttering at rather explicit impulse ("The Neutral Zone", "Samaritan Snare", "Mind's Eye" and so forth). Perhaps these systems are so warp-hostile due to the local subspace "terrain" or "weather" that it makes more sense to go there at impulse than at warp - and thus sending just a shuttle instead of the whole ship is the most efficient way to deliver a handful of people.

Also, "Paradise Syndrome" would immensely benefit if warp inside (some) star systems were drastically slower than outside them. Thus, Spock's multi-hour dash at warp nine could indeed equate the mere two months of sublight travel back in the wake of the big rock. And the warp 8+ slighshot maneuvers of "Tomorrow is Yesterday" and ST4:TVH would also make better sense, not requiring split-second timing but rather minute-level accuracy...

Since only a select few stars or star systems have this adverse effect on warp drives, but all stars and star systems have gravity, I think we're still better off thinking that it's subspace, not gravity, that messes with warp engines. And some stars have nasty subspace properties while others have benign ones.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Actually, the theory of ZPE goes back to 1900, and I think it's safe to say that somebody that GR talked to had at least heard of it, so the fact that it's not a part of the setup is significant.

It could also be that the antimatter concept was a rising star relative to ZPE during the 1960's and it would fit that GR picked something "new". But it wouldn't be unusual if the stories submitted by other writers sneaked in ideas that might have been similar to ZPE power for "magical regeneration" purposes.

http://ngrams.googlelabs.com/graph?...start=1800&year_end=2000&corpus=0&smoothing=3http://ngrams.googlelabs.com/graph?...start=1800&year_end=2000&corpus=0&smoothing=3
 
Actually, the theory of ZPE goes back to 1900, and I think it's safe to say that somebody that GR talked to had at least heard of it, so the fact that it's not a part of the setup is significant.

And the historical deviations in Star Trek's history (not the things that haven't come true, but the stuff that was off when they wrote it, like Clark Gable being a movie star in 1930, when in actuality, he was still a bit player at the time) shows that Star Trek is NOT our future.

Right on your first point, but I was mainly referring to theories concerning the possibility of tapping the ZPE for "infinite energy" purposes. Then, as now, the "experts" don't think this is really possible, so it probably wasn't seriously considered by GR and his advisors, but then such pessimism concerning new energy sources is nothing new, Lord Rutherford -the "father" of nuclear physics- quipped "anyone who thinks this could be a new power source is talking pure moonshine". So I tend to put little stock in what the "experts" say is impossible. It was probably statements like Rutherford's that promped Arthur C. Clark to declare "When an expert says something is possible he is most probably right, but when he says something is impossible, he is most certainly wrong".

In any case, it doesn't matter whether it was "part of the setup" or not, as blssdwlf alludes, much of the techno-babble the writers came up with concerning things like lithium/dilithium, or activating/deactivating antimatter, or not mixing it "cold" etc. etc. had nothing to do with "the setup" Roddenberry put in place, yet they ended up in the stories they wrote anyway, and now we're obliged to deal with them as best we can. So chaining ourselves only to "what GR set up" seems counter productive in the extreme.

And if Star Trek does not represent our future, or past for that matter, then all the more reason anything goes, your arguments are contradictory and therefore self canceling!

And finally, too much emphasis is being put on "ZPE". As stated above, this is just one possibility for solving some of the TOS conundrums, there are other possibilities. At the moment, I myself tend to lean toward the probability that charged dilithium may tap into one of perhaps numerous anti-matter/mirror universes somehow to "gate" A-M into "our" universe? In any case, nothing is being written in stone here, all possibilities should be put on the table to test viability before any are rejected out-of-hand.
 
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like Clark Gable being a movie star in 1930, when in actuality, he was still a bit player at the time)
If the conversation between Kirk and Keeler took place on November 1, 1931, that would nicely make the romantic movie Possessed, Edith Keeler's "Clark Gable movie."
 
And if the history of Edith Keeler can differ from ours (there was no Slum Angel who would have been photographed together with Roosevelt in 1936), why should the history of Clark Gable receive inequal treatment? Surely both can deviate equally from our baseline.

Trek milks the parallel universes concept a lot, driving home the point that there can be an infinite number of them - including ones where small details differ but big lines follow those of our baseline. Even if it calls for some fairly exotic in the execution of those details, such as 9/11 actually being committed by disgruntled United stewardesses or something.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Trek milks the parallel universes concept a lot, driving home the point that there can be an infinite number of them - including ones where small details differ but big lines follow those of our baseline. Even if it calls for some fairly exotic in the execution of those details, such as 9/11 actually being committed by disgruntled United stewardesses or something.

Timo Saloniemi

Ummm... was that stewardess remark necessary? It seems a bit on the inflammatory side of things. I take it you were trying to get a rise out of people in this thread. Right?
 
Trek milks the parallel universes concept a lot, driving home the point that there can be an infinite number of them - including ones where small details differ but big lines follow those of our baseline. Even if it calls for some fairly exotic in the execution of those details, such as 9/11 actually being committed by disgruntled United stewardesses or something.

Timo Saloniemi

Ummm... was that stewardess remark necessary? It seems a bit on the inflammatory side of things. I take it you were trying to get a rise out of people in this thread. Right?

Guys, I'm not a mod or anything, but I really hope this doesn't launch into a lengthy back-and-forth about someone's maybe not so well thought-out example as being an intentionally inflammatory remark.

This thread about WARP ENGINES in TOS was really interesting for quite a while and I for one hope it doesn't get derailed. Do us all a favor, eh?

--Alex
 
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