Engine Room(s) on the TOS Enterprise (revisited)

[Mres_was_framed!]

I tried it using my limited skill. I took the pressure hull diagram, sized it for a 122 foot length from the fantail to the aft of the pylon; sized and superimposed the Sinclair model over the front portion; and lastly, eyeballed the rest. The new clamshell doors are 60' in diameter. The stern got so long, that I shortened it (see below). Rear windows line up, now. Conclusion: Meh (but the hangar sorta fits...)

I noticed that the hangar sketch (side view below) matches the profile of the pressure hull sketch with the exposed clamshell doors, no overhang and the rear dome in front of the doors. The rear overhang didn't exist early on. Later, it looks like the clamshell doors and fantail were pulled forward under the dome ~10'. Odd, the hangar sketch must have been done pre-33" and 11' ship model design since both ship models had the overhang.

Fantastic work to consider! I'd like to add that if you look in the orange diagram, you can see that there is a red line running from the saucer to the secondary hull, and also up the pylons. Since this image is near the turbolift, I contend that these are lift systems and that there is a lift going up the pylons (though not a full-fledged elevator car, probably, due to space). Thus in TAS it is still very possible that Kirk and Scotty are dropping of the anti-matter into that lift to have it carried up to the nacelle.

"Un-tapering the Hull"; last view; put all the windows and pylon on their original X-axis. Re-tapered the back bone to give more slant and extended the underside scallop to start at its original position. Almost all of the X-axis stretch is between the last window and the top dome, but the stern was blown up to get the 60' dia. doors. For the Y-axis stretch, I mostly just matched up to the stern points and rotated up the rear windows to be inline with the front sets of windows. Onto the log fire.

Not only is this diagram amazing, but it is similar to many artistic images of the ship (from the 60's-70's novelizations, (and as others have said from TAS), that date to the period.

Can we get this overlaid with the secondary hull of the refit? (especially using the concept that the refit hull fits within the original, like someone who is posting on this thread did a few years back) here:

https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/scaling-the-excelsior-filming-model.223039/page-21

Have we ever detailed out the two different engine/power models?

JML Model (naval style)
1. One M/AM reactor in secondary (or saucer) hull feeding power to the warp engines in each nacelle.
2. etc.

GR/MJ Model (aviation style)
1. Two M/AM reactors, one in each warp engine nacelle which send power into the secondary hull.
2. etc.

or is that about it? Three or more M/AM reactors? Magic rocks? Anti-matter flow? I love treknobabble.

Three reactors might still mean one warp reactor and two impulse engines.

I still like the idea that, whatever the big swirling light shaft in TMP is, the pipe structure is that same type of system in TOS. In this theory we can see one end of it in the Secondary Hull Engine Room, leading to the base of the struts, and another end of it in the Saucer Engine Room, leading to the space between the two Impulse Engine vents, and supplementing their abilities.

The ultimate "proof" of this idea: In TOS, the glowing parts of the model (deflector, nacelle endcaps) are predominantly orange, like the pipe structure; in TMP the main lit parts (deflector, nacelle grills) are predominantly blue like the big swirling light shaft.

 

[Henoch]

In TOS, it seems likely that the setup in the secondary hull consists of 3 distinct reactors to comply with such episodes as Catspaw or Day Of The Dove (unless the other 2 reactors are in the nacelles for some reason) combined into a single "reactor system". There remains a single antimatter input valve which feeds all 3 (and is the obvious target of sabotage!)

So a three reactor system with a single anti-matter fuel input fits all the situations.

That's how I see it, too. A third reactor ("Reactor #3"?) is a good compromise for both designs. I go one step further and say that antimatter fuel is produced by the dilithium crystals along with power in the third reactor. For general ship power, the M/AM reactors, usually just the third reactor, but when extra power is needed and warp drive is idle/out, the other two M/AM reactors in the nacelles can divert their power into the same power conversion unit or main energizer (the pipe cathedral may be the latter portion of the system) to produce usable ship power (EPS grid). The third reactor is key (single point failure) to both power and antimatter. I also believe that the secondary systems (matter collection, heating/cooling, magnetic confinement, etc.) in the warp nacelles are powered by ship power while the warp field is generated directly by the M/AM reactors in the warp engines. Take out or sabotage the third reactor and you take out both warp drive and continuous ship super power. Then the ship is left with auxiliary impulse power/drive and emergency batteries, but that's another story.

 

[Henoch]

Can we get this overlaid with the secondary hull of the refit? (especially using the concept that the refit hull fits within the original, like someone who is posting on this thread did a few years back) here:

Thank you for your kind comments. I have no interest in TMP, so, not me. Without any analysis, I'd guess the new dimensions will not fit into the TMP model (unless you expand its rear end, too ).

Three reactors might still mean one warp reactor and two impulse engines.

I still like the idea that, whatever the big swirling light shaft in TMP is, the pipe structure is that same type of system in TOS. In this theory we can see one end of it in the Secondary Hull Engine Room, leading to the base of the struts, and another end of it in the Saucer Engine Room, leading to the space between the two Impulse Engine vents, and supplementing their abilities.

The ultimate "proof" of this idea: In TOS, the glowing parts of the model (deflector, nacelle endcaps) are predominantly orange, like the pipe structure; in TMP the main lit parts (deflector, nacelle grills) are predominantly blue like the big swirling light shaft.

Two things, first, I don't think the TOS deflector glows.

Secondly, your comment about two impulse engines...are you suggesting that the two warp engines in the nacelles are just really big impulse engines? I think you are only referring to the impulse engines.

Many of us on this site believe that the TOS Enterprise is capable of low FTL speed with impulse engines. I believe that the warp engines and the impulse engines are both gravity drives. The warp engines are powered by M/AM reaction to generate strong gravity (antigravity?) to warp space around the ship for high FTL. The smaller impulse engines use fusion reaction to generate gravity mostly for high STL directional thrust or acceleration, but if pushed hard, they can generate a smaller/weaker space warp for low FTL (warp 1+ to 2 at most) for several hours before your fusion fuel runs out. YMMV.

 

[yotsuya]

I personally think the warp speeds in all of Star Trek are not what the charts say. Remember the charts never appear anywhere in Cannon that I'm aware of. So I think the low warp speeds are much higher than the charts show. And I wouldn't be opposed to the impulse engines being able to generate a small warp-field for low warp velocities. I've always felt that the way the warp drive works is actually that the two (or however many depending on the class of ship) nacells generate the warp field and the impulse engines push the ship along in Warp. And to keep The Cage in play, I think that they have developed something to cancel out the relativity time disparity sometime between when Vena's ship was lost and when the Enterprise encounters her. They didn't really address that in Enterprise but all of those vehicles would be using the older style and possibly even an older warp scale.

 

[Ronald Held]

Do we really know how many antimatter tanks/pods there are?

 

[TIN_MAN]

Do we really know how many antimatter tanks/pods there are?

Well, if we're talking TOS, keep in mind that pods = nacelles, so there would be two for the Enterprise. If the TOS "E" has any small A/M fuel tanks as in later trek, then they are probably not referred to as "pods" but more likely "magnetic bottles" as per clues in "The Immunity Syndrome"? It wasn't until TNG that the term "pod" was ret-conned to mean a small independently jettisonable fuel tank.

Speaking of "The Immunity Syndrome", doesn't this episode feature the combining of impulse and warp thrust? If so, are there some sort of impulse/rocket thrusters in the nacelles? Does this mean that "warp drive" is the combination of a warp field and an impulse engine in one housing? Is there a M/A-M "reactor" in each nacelle that is actually a more or less conventional but powerful rocket engine?

 

[yotsuya]

Well, if we're talking TOS, keep in mind that pods = nacelles, so there would be two for the Enterprise. If the TOS "E" has any small A/M fuel tanks as in later trek, then they are probably not referred to as "pods" but more likely "magnetic bottles" as per clues in "The Immunity Syndrome"? It wasn't until TNG that the term "pod" was ret-conned to mean a small independently jettisonable fuel tank.

Speaking of "The Immunity Syndrome", doesn't this episode feature the combining of impulse and warp thrust? If so, are there some sort of impulse/rocket thrusters in the nacelles? Does this mean that "warp drive" is the combination of a warp field and an impulse engine in one housing? Is there a M/A-M "reactor" in each nacelle that is actually a more or less conventional but powerful rocket engine?

It is possible that to make sure the reaction is complete that they have it slanted toward more matter which would result in an expellable end product of super-heated matter that could be used for thrust. While that is not how I see the engine configuration, I do see it as one possibility. I prefer to think that the nacelles generate the warp field and if any thrust is needed, the impulse engines are used for that. The general theory that later Trek used was that the warp field causes the ship to basically surf through space so no specific thrust is necessary (though that seems incomplete to me).

 

[yotsuya]

Do we really know how many antimatter tanks/pods there are?

I don't think they ever say. Though I did hear Spock say that there was some minor buckling in the matter/anti-matter pods indicating the nacelles. TMoST does refer to the nacelles as pods so I think we can assume pods generally refers to the nacelles. I consider it one of those things where the writers didn't always really settle on one way of referring to things and the dialog should really have said warp pods or warp nacelles, which is how later trek seems to treat it. I do tend to give creedance to later Trek, especially the movies and TNG, in interpreting TOS because there were many things that were left kind of hanging that they later nailed down. The funciton of the warp drive system is one of those. TOS tends to lack specifics and sticks to matter, anti-matter, and dilithium crystals without giving much explanation. Roddenberry wanted it that way. The TOS series bible (at least the Season 2 one that I have a scan of) is very specific that the crew will not explain every piece of technology the way in a copy show they would not explain guns, handcuffs, or cars, they just use them. And considering what TNG came up with is a scientifically plausible idea, I apply that to TOS and just filter what the characters say to make sense. To me pods just equals nacelles and has no connection to where the matter/anti-matter reaction takes place. I think the few times they actually delve into it (and I ignore all of TAS for this), there is one reactor that somehow feeds the two pods/nacelles. I think That Which Survives shows the same type of system in a different layout as the refit and TNG Enterprises have. So I have latched on to that as the design and adapt seemingly conflicting dialog.

 

[blssdwlf]

Speaking of "The Immunity Syndrome", doesn't this episode feature the combining of impulse and warp thrust? If so, are there some sort of impulse/rocket thrusters in the nacelles? Does this mean that "warp drive" is the combination of a warp field and an impulse engine in one housing? Is there a M/A-M "reactor" in each nacelle that is actually a more or less conventional but powerful rocket engine?

The simultaneous use of both impulse and warp power to power away was also used in "The Corbomite Maneuver". We also know from "The Ultimate Computer", "Obsession", and "Elaan of Troyius" that a starship can operate exclusively on warp drive so impulse isn't actually integral to the functioning of warp drive.

We also know in "The Ultimate Computer", "Court Martial", and "The Immunity Syndrome" that ships at warp apply thrust to accelerate/decelerate. So the magic space warp isn't necessarily propulsive without kinetic thrust. "Metamorphosis" would suggest that they would leave antimatter residue/trail so I think that each nacelle contains a M/AM reactor that functions as an engine. The reaction creates a space warp and also supplies fuel for the acceleration thrusters.

A central M/AM reactor in the engineering hull (that looks like a pod :P ) generates power and with the help of the crystals regenerates M/AM fuel for the nacelle reactors.

Impulse engines could be tied to the nacelles in some form though since it is treated as an emergency system. Perhaps the impulse engines are a component in the warp nacelles that can be fallen back to?

 

[Henoch]

The simultaneous use of both impulse and warp power to power away was also used in "The Corbomite Maneuver".

As we have previously analyzed this event in the past, Kirk orders "maximum acceleration" which doesn't sound like going to warp. They were being towed at 0.64c, i.e. sublight, and they never moved FTL under the tow. The warp engines' intermix temperature was overheating due to generating power and at the end they throw in impulse power too. All that power must have been driving its gravity (i.e. acceleration) drive system to pull away from the tractor beam (another gravity device). It was a simple tug-of-war.

 

[blssdwlf]

As we have previously analyzed this event in the past, Kirk orders "maximum acceleration" which doesn't sound like going to warp. They were being towed at 0.64c, i.e. sublight, and they never moved FTL under the tow. The warp engines' intermix temperature was overheating due to generating power and at the end they throw in impulse power too. All that power must have been driving its gravity (i.e. acceleration) drive system to pull away from the tractor beam (another gravity device). It was a simple tug-of-war.

I'm not sure how the use of warp plus impulse is that much different from "The Immunity Syndrome". In both cases, the Enterprise is fighting against the pull of something (your tug of war scenario) and had to apply both warp and impulse power.
You could argue that the engines didn't overheat in "The Immunity Syndrome" but the episode already answers that with the power drain factor.

 

[TIN_MAN]

I think the key word here is "thrust" in connection with the warp drive engines themselves, It seems to imply some kind of Newtonian impulse/rocket reaction drive, rather than some kind of field propulsion drive, unless they're combined somehow?

In other words, you can combine impulse engine thrust with warp engine propulsion, but you can't combine impulse engine thrust with warp engine thrust unless the later also has some sort of Newtonian rocket drive connected with it.

 

[Ronald Held]

If impulse emgines were Newtonian rockets, they would not be up to moving any ship to a fraction of lightspeed. They must be some large reduction in the inertial mass of a ship.

 

[blssdwlf]

I think the key word here is "thrust" in connection with the warp drive engines themselves, It seems to imply some kind of Newtonian impulse/rocket reaction drive, rather than some kind of field propulsion drive, unless they're combined somehow?

In other words, you can combine impulse engine thrust with warp engine propulsion, but you can't combine impulse engine thrust with warp engine thrust unless the later also has some sort of Newtonian rocket drive connected with it.

Right - what I've been trying to say above was that in my mind Warp engines have some Newtonian properties. You have to apply thrust to accelerate on Warp drive and once up to a desired speed you only just need to maintain the space warp. That's why we have "thrust" applied at warp for "The Immunity Syndrome", "Court Martial" and "The Ultimate Computer".
But I also do believe that the warp engines have their own thrusters that are separate from the impulse engine thrusters. Basically, the ship has normal space thrusters (helm), impulse thrusters (impulse drive), and warp thrusters (warp drive).

"Court Martial"

KIRK: Warp factor one, Mister Hanson.
HANSON: Warp one, sir.
...
KIRK: One third more thrust.​

"The Ultimate Computer"

CHEKOV: Going to warp four, sir.
MCCOY: Jim.
KIRK: Scotty, reverse engines. Slow us down.
SCOTT: Reverse thrusts will not engage, sir. Manual override isn't working either.​

 

[Mres_was_framed!]

Two things, first, I don't think the TOS deflector glows.

Secondly, your comment about two impulse engines...are you suggesting that the two warp engines in the nacelles are just really big impulse engines? I think you are only referring to the impulse engines.

It may not really glow, or perhaps it was meant to and could not be built that way, but it reflects more or less orange, the same color radiating from the pipe structure.

The nacelles are stated to be Warp Nacelles. I'm saying that, just as noted here, if Impulse and War systems could be combined, then maybe there is only 1 antimatter reactor feeding the nacelles, and then there are two impulse reactors near the rear of the saucer.

Speaking of "The Immunity Syndrome", doesn't this episode feature the combining of impulse and warp thrust? If so, are there some sort of impulse/rocket thrusters in the nacelles? Does this mean that "warp drive" is the combination of a warp field and an impulse engine in one housing? Is there a M/A-M "reactor" in each nacelle that is actually a more or less conventional but powerful rocket engine?

The refit has thrusts painted on the nacelles, I believe. It would need something to move slower than light when separated.

The simultaneous use of both impulse and warp power to power away was also used in "The Corbomite Maneuver". We also know from "The Ultimate Computer", "Obsession", and "Elaan of Troyius" that a starship can operate exclusively on warp drive so impulse isn't actually integral to the functioning of warp drive.

We also know in "The Ultimate Computer", "Court Martial", and "The Immunity Syndrome" that ships at warp apply thrust to accelerate/decelerate. So the magic space warp isn't necessarily propulsive without kinetic thrust. "Metamorphosis" would suggest that they would leave antimatter residue/trail so I think that each nacelle contains a M/AM reactor that functions as an engine. The reaction creates a space warp and also supplies fuel for the acceleration thrusters.

A central M/AM reactor in the engineering hull (that looks like a pod :P ) generates power and with the help of the crystals regenerates M/AM fuel for the nacelle reactors.

Impulse engines could be tied to the nacelles in some form though since it is treated as an emergency system. Perhaps the impulse engines are a component in the warp nacelles that can be fallen back to?

If impulse emgines were Newtonian rockets, they would not be up to moving any ship to a fraction of lightspeed. They must be some large reduction in the inertial mass of a ship.

I surmise that the cylindrical units on the floor in front of the pipe structure in the saucer Engineering Room, are the end of a distribution system to add some warp field energy to the Impulse System. That's why the pipe structure burns out in "The Paradise Syndrome:" what might be called the "converter assembly" is on the floor channeling energy into it.

But I also do believe that the warp engines have their own thrusters that are separate from the impulse engine thrusters.

See above.

 

[Phaser Two]

So, it's Page 32. Great, great thread.

Does the Enterprise have one or two engine rooms?

 

[blssdwlf]

So, it's Page 32. Great, great thread.

Does the Enterprise have one or two engine rooms?

Minimum of two, IMHO Of course, YMMV

 

[Phaser Two]

Minimum of two, IMHO Of course, YMMV

Awesome! My M does not V at all - I've always believed there were two.

 

[PhotoBoy]

It is possible that to make sure the reaction is complete that they have it slanted toward more matter which would result in an expellable end product of super-heated matter that could be used for thrust. While that is not how I see the engine configuration, I do see it as one possibility. I prefer to think that the nacelles generate the warp field and if any thrust is needed, the impulse engines are used for that. The general theory that later Trek used was that the warp field causes the ship to basically surf through space so no specific thrust is necessary (though that seems incomplete to me).

That's always how I thought the impulse engines should work as well, they provide the push and the nacelles generate the field that allows them to move beyond the speed of light. Presumably the warp field must also include some sort time distortion to prevent time dilation problems.

That said, your theory about super-heating extra matter to be used for thrust is interesting as it would explain all those later Trek episodes where they talk about tweaking matter/anti-matter ratios (except that one episode where Wesley concludes 1:1 is the only ratio!)

 

[Mytran]

If impulse emgines were Newtonian rockets, they would not be up to moving any ship to a fraction of lightspeed. They must be some large reduction in the inertial mass of a ship.

I see the Impulse Engines working in concert with the nacelles for sublight travel; specifically, the subspace field generators in the nacelles can lower the overall mass of the ship (see DS9's Emissary and also the subspace driver coil in the TNG-TM) making it possible for rapid acceleration and speed with only a tiny quantity of fuel.