Engine Room(s) on the TOS Enterprise (revisited)

[Henoch]

(originally two big squished spheres)

I love your ideals. Just being a little nit-picky, I think there were more than just two spheres, rather several were vertically up and down similar to the segments on the vertical and horizontal "intermix" shafts in TMP. Maybe not. Non-canon artwork shows at least three:

Photos: http://tumblr.theyboldlywent.com/post/129856322711/some-frames-from-test-footage-shot-in-december-of

 

[blssdwlf]

That's a common interpretation that I've seen on the board, but that's never stated. The phrase "matter nacelle" is never used. Only "antimatter nacelle" is used. It could easily be the case that both nacelles are "antimatter nacelles" and "antimatter nacelle" is just shorthand for "matter/antimatter nacelle."

Not in the case of TAS. It's pretty clear they are talking first about a single antimatter engine and then Kirk adds in the need for the matter engine to be regenerated as well. Two separate engines. Of course we're assuming that the antimatter engine is in the antimatter nacelle and the matter engine is in the matter nacelle but how else could they be setup? It cannot be dual antimatter engines and dual matter engines. That just is not supported in the dialogue.

SCOTT: If we don't stop the power drain right now, that'll be the end of us.
KIRK: And if we do stop, we'll be drawn into one of the villi and the ship will explode.
SCOTT: Captain, you said that villi are antimatter. If we could get a piece of it, I could put it in the antimatter engine and it would regenerate. We'd have enough power for the engines and the shields to go on maximum again.
KIRK: We need both the matter and the antimatter engines regenerated.
SCOTT: Matter's no problem. We could beam aboard some of the planet chunks out there. And we can cut a piece of the antimatter villi with the tractor beams and transport it aboard like that.
KIRK: Bring it aboard? If the antimatter touches the inside of the ship or any of us, we'll be blown to bits.
SCOTT: I can rig a force field box that'll hold the villi suspended in the center. Then I can take it into the antimatter nacelle, put it into the regenerating chamber and release the forcefield by remote control.​

Thankfully for TOS, the dialogue doesn't separate the Matter-Antimatter engines/pods/nacelles in a way as described in TAS. As you point out, "Breads and Circuses" lists out a ship with more than one antimatter nacelle and in "By Any Other Name" the nacelles are referred to as combined matter-antimatter nacelles. The assumption for us is that there is at least one M/AM reactor in each nacelle and we know from dialogue in "By Any Other Name" that "the Enterprise is propelled by matter-antimatter reactors." We also know that in "Elaan of Troyius" and "That Which Survives" that there is a single M/AM reactor that is critical to the ship's operation. What we are left with then is that there at least three M/AM reactors in the TOS Enterprise. And again, TAS is different enough (for aesthetic reasons) but also from a technology standpoint that they should stand separately.

YMMV

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Not in the case of TAS. It's pretty clear they are talking first about a single antimatter engine and then Kirk adds in the need for the matter engine to be regenerated as well. Two separate engines. Of course we're assuming that the antimatter engine is in the antimatter nacelle and the matter engine is in the matter nacelle but how else could they be setup? It cannot be dual antimatter engines and dual matter engines. That just is not supported in the dialogue.

SCOTT: If we don't stop the power drain right now, that'll be the end of us.
KIRK: And if we do stop, we'll be drawn into one of the villi and the ship will explode.
SCOTT: Captain, you said that villi are antimatter. If we could get a piece of it, I could put it in the antimatter engine and it would regenerate. We'd have enough power for the engines and the shields to go on maximum again.
KIRK: We need both the matter and the antimatter engines regenerated.
SCOTT: Matter's no problem. We could beam aboard some of the planet chunks out there. And we can cut a piece of the antimatter villi with the tractor beams and transport it aboard like that.
KIRK: Bring it aboard? If the antimatter touches the inside of the ship or any of us, we'll be blown to bits.
SCOTT: I can rig a force field box that'll hold the villi suspended in the center. Then I can take it into the antimatter nacelle, put it into the regenerating chamber and release the forcefield by remote control.​

Thankfully for TOS, the dialogue doesn't separate the Matter-Antimatter engines/pods/nacelles in a way as described in TAS. As you point out, "Breads and Circuses" lists out a ship with more than one antimatter nacelle and in "By Any Other Name" the nacelles are referred to as combined matter-antimatter nacelles. The assumption for us is that there is at least one M/AM reactor in each nacelle and we know from dialogue in "By Any Other Name" that "the Enterprise is propelled by matter-antimatter reactors." We also that in "Elaan of Troyius" and "That Which Survives" that there is a single reactor that is critical to the ship's operation. What we are left with is then at least three M/AM reactors for TOS. And again, TAS is different enough (for aesthetic reasons) but also from a technology standpoint that they should stand separately.

YMMV

You're right.

I was leaning on the possibility that each nacelle could have both an antimatter engine and matter engine inside. The passage from TMoST page 191 that I quoted upthread makes the fine distinction by saying that each nacelle houses an engine but isn't per se an engine itself.

Apparently the matter engine is relatively trivial as Scotty indicates; perhaps the matter engine in each nacelle is just the dome on front, analogous to a Bussard collector in the later spinoffs (TNG+).

But I understand why you're saying what you're saying, and I'm glad you reminded me of the dialog.

I withdraw my contention there's nothing stated that could be reasonably read to support the interpretation of one dedicated matter nacelle and one dedicated antimatter nacelle.

However, the use of singulars ("engine" instead of "engines") might also lead support to the idea that fuel flow pathways from the two nacelles are linked in the secondary hull, indicating one engine for matter and one for antimatter, each in two parts split between the two nacelles, where again there could sometimes be fuel flow going from one nacelle down through the secondary hull back up into the other nacelle, so that they're always balanced and working in concert. That's how I was reading it.

 

[TIN_MAN]

John Meredyth Lucas wrote both "Elaan of Troyius" and and "That Which Survives" and also directed the former, so it's thanks to him that we get these two oddball episodes that disagree with the rest of the series indicating that there is more than one M/A-M reactor aboard.

 

[Mytran]

Not in the case of TAS. It's pretty clear they are talking first about a single antimatter engine and then Kirk adds in the need for the matter engine to be regenerated as well. Two separate engines. Of course we're assuming that the antimatter engine is in the antimatter nacelle and the matter engine is in the matter nacelle but how else could they be setup? It cannot be dual antimatter engines and dual matter engines. That just is not supported in the dialogue.

SCOTT: If we don't stop the power drain right now, that'll be the end of us.
KIRK: And if we do stop, we'll be drawn into one of the villi and the ship will explode.
SCOTT: Captain, you said that villi are antimatter. If we could get a piece of it, I could put it in the antimatter engine and it would regenerate. We'd have enough power for the engines and the shields to go on maximum again.
KIRK: We need both the matter and the antimatter engines regenerated.
SCOTT: Matter's no problem. We could beam aboard some of the planet chunks out there. And we can cut a piece of the antimatter villi with the tractor beams and transport it aboard like that.
KIRK: Bring it aboard? If the antimatter touches the inside of the ship or any of us, we'll be blown to bits.
SCOTT: I can rig a force field box that'll hold the villi suspended in the center. Then I can take it into the antimatter nacelle, put it into the regenerating chamber and release the forcefield by remote control.​

Thankfully for TOS, the dialogue doesn't separate the Matter-Antimatter engines/pods/nacelles in a way as described in TAS. As you point out, "Breads and Circuses" lists out a ship with more than one antimatter nacelle and in "By Any Other Name" the nacelles are referred to as combined matter-antimatter nacelles. The assumption for us is that there is at least one M/AM reactor in each nacelle and we know from dialogue in "By Any Other Name" that "the Enterprise is propelled by matter-antimatter reactors." We also know that in "Elaan of Troyius" and "That Which Survives" that there is a single M/AM reactor that is critical to the ship's operation. What we are left with then is that there at least three M/AM reactors in the TOS Enterprise. And again, TAS is different enough (for aesthetic reasons) but also from a technology standpoint that they should stand separately.

YMMV

I have serious problems with Scotty fullfiling the power requirements of the "matter " nacelle by beaming aboard a lump of planet! If the engine is that indiscriminate, why not use discarded coffee cups from the Rec Room? It's all "matter", right?
I assume that Scotty was just being sarcastic due to the fact that regerating the "matter" side of things is such a non-issue! In any case, all their concerns centre on the antimatter side of things, which is consistent with a lot of the TOS talk about "antimatter nacelles", "antimatter pods", "antimatter engines" and so forth.

However, the use of singulars ("engine" instead of "engines") might also lead support to the idea that fuel flow pathways from the two nacelles are linked in the secondary hull, indicating one engine for matter and one for antimatter, each in two parts split between the two nacelles, where again there could sometimes be fuel flow going from one nacelle down through the secondary hull back up into the other nacelle, so that they're always balanced and working in concert. That's how I was reading it.

It does make perfect sense that there would be a transfer of fuel between the nacelles (I mentioned upthread that I felt that there should be an output balance between the two in order to keep the ship flying straight).

Maybe once an antimatter nacelle can restart itself , it can draw in additional villi through the domes and continue the refueling process? The term "regenerate" is somewhat vague after all!

John Meredyth Lucas wrote both "Elaan of Troyius" and and "That Which Survives" and also directed the former, so it's thanks to him that we get these two oddball episodes that disagree with the rest of the series indicating that there is more than one M/A-M reactor aboard.

I can't really blame him - such shorthand makes the drama much easier!

 

[yotsuya]

John Meredyth Lucas wrote both "Elaan of Troyius" and and "That Which Survives" and also directed the former, so it's thanks to him that we get these two oddball episodes that disagree with the rest of the series indicating that there is more than one M/A-M reactor aboard.

But they don't disagree with the series. Especially when you extrapolate from TOS the TMP and TNG details. TOS just hints at it. Many are assuming the word engine must mean a reactor of some kind. Nothing in TOS specified that. Kirk's line in the Apple makes it clear that the warp drive and the nacelles are distinct. The nacelles generate the warp field while the warp drive powers the ship. That agrees completely that there is a single matter/anti-matter reactor on the ship. The Naked time agrees with that as does Tomorrow is Yesterday.

This topic is the first time I've encountered some of these theories. Star Trek as a franchise has gone a different direction and I see the seeds of that in a great number of TOS episodes. TMP followed that line of thinking. Agree with it or not, the description of the ship having a single m/am reactor is what TMP and TNG used. From the way all the characters talk about the "drive train" of the Enterprise, I find a great consistency overall with some of the references being brought up being the oddballs. So many throw away lines are being given huge weight compared to long scenes with greater detail. Logic needs to be applied. There is no logic to some of the theories, interesting though they may be. While no book is truly canon, there is a great deal in TMOST that helps explain the episodes. It very clearly states the the fuel is in the engineering hull. The episodes that have the warp drive system woven into the story agree with that. The matter and anti-matter would be the fuel an would be stored in the engineering hull. The only times we are given explicit description of how those two fuels are combined, it is in a single reactor. Logically it makes sense to confine something where the temperature and mix settings are so important to a single reactor in the engineering hull. The nacelles contain the warp engines - as in the mechanism that provides the faster than light travel - but are fed by the main reactor and all the controls found in main engineering. And while both FJ and Jefferies himself did have some human accessible space in the nacelles, The only item built into the set that even remotely resembles anything connected with the nacelles or pylons is the Jefferies tube. Everything else shown was in the main part of the ship.

But regardless of how unlikely and illogical I find some of the theories, just discussing them in this way has given me a clear picture. I no longer need to move the Star Trek II room where Spock died clear down to the level of the reaction chamber.

 

[TIN_MAN]

@ Mytran;
Well, in regards J.M.L. and his two oddball episodes, these were both third season episodes when everybody who was supposed to be keeping their eye on the ball as far as technical continuity goes, was leaving the production like rats fleeing a sinking ship.

But in regards the nacelles, perhaps one nacelle stores reserve antimatter fuel and the other store reserve matter fuel and yet each one gets an "active" supply of the appropriate oppositely charged fuel from the central reactor (or storage pods)? This way, it could be said there's an "anti-matter" nacelle/engine and a "matter" nacelle/engine; but collectively they could still be referred to as matter/anti matter nacelles/pods/engine as well as simply just antimatter nacelles/pods/engines?

 

[Mytran]

But in regards the nacelles, perhaps one nacelle stores reserve antimatter fuel and the other store reserve matter fuel and yet each one gets an "active" supply of the appropriate oppositely charged fuel from the central reactor (or storage pods)? This way, it could be said there's an "anti-matter" nacelle/engine and a "matter" nacelle/engine; but collectively they could still be referred to as matter/anti matter nacelles/pods/engine as well as simply just antimatter nacelles/pods/engines?

Possibly; but given how often they are referred to as "antimatter pods" and "antimatter nacelles", plus the common notion that the Impulse Engines run on deuterium I tend to think that the antimatter is processed and stored in the nacelles (hence the flashing lights on the domes) and the common matter is contained in (and shared from) the secondary hull.

 

[TIN_MAN]

But they don't disagree with the series. Especially when you extrapolate from TOS the TMP and TNG details. TOS just hints at it. Many are assuming the word engine must mean a reactor of some kind. Nothing in TOS specified that. Kirk's line in the Apple makes it clear that the warp drive and the nacelles are distinct. The nacelles generate the warp field while the warp drive powers the ship. That agrees completely that there is a single matter/anti-matter reactor on the ship. The Naked time agrees with that as does Tomorrow is Yesterday.

This topic is the first time I've encountered some of these theories. Star Trek as a franchise has gone a different direction and I see the seeds of that in a great number of TOS episodes. TMP followed that line of thinking. Agree with it or not, the description of the ship having a single m/am reactor is what TMP and TNG used. From the way all the characters talk about the "drive train" of the Enterprise, I find a great consistency overall with some of the references being brought up being the oddballs. So many throw away lines are being given huge weight compared to long scenes with greater detail. Logic needs to be applied. There is no logic to some of the theories, interesting though they may be. While no book is truly canon, there is a great deal in TMOST that helps explain the episodes. It very clearly states the the fuel is in the engineering hull. The episodes that have the warp drive system woven into the story agree with that. The matter and anti-matter would be the fuel an would be stored in the engineering hull. The only times we are given explicit description of how those two fuels are combined, it is in a single reactor. Logically it makes sense to confine something where the temperature and mix settings are so important to a single reactor in the engineering hull. The nacelles contain the warp engines - as in the mechanism that provides the faster than light travel - but are fed by the main reactor and all the controls found in main engineering. And while both FJ and Jefferies himself did have some human accessible space in the nacelles, The only item built into the set that even remotely resembles anything connected with the nacelles or pylons is the Jefferies tube. Everything else shown was in the main part of the ship.

But regardless of how unlikely and illogical I find some of the theories, just discussing them in this way has given me a clear picture. I no longer need to move the Star Trek II room where Spock died clear down to the level of the reaction chamber.

For most of us this is the bazillionth time we've encountered and discussed these theories, in fact I believe it was I, many yonks ago, who first pointed out that "engine" and "reactor" are not necessarily synonymous.

But in any case, I'll have to double check, but I don't believe TMOST specifies that the fuel in the secondary hull is anti-matter fuel. Most likely, keeping with Jefferies intention that the warp drive "engines" (his term) are powerful and dangerous and should be kept as far away from the habitable areas of the ship as possible, and thus be "quick change units", indicates that the pods/nacelles are the most likely place for anti-matter fuel storage ,with the matter half being safely stored in the secondary hull per TMOST. Also there abundant and consistent dialog from TOS that the anti-matter is in the pods/nacelles, and not anywhere else.

 

[TIN_MAN]

Possibly; but given how often they are referred to as "antimatter pods" and "antimatter nacelles", plus the common notion that the Impulse Engines run on deuterium I tend to think that the antimatter is processed and stored in the nacelles (hence the flashing lights on the domes) and the common matter is contained in (and shared from) the secondary hull.

Yeah, that's basically how I see it (see above post) I was just throwing out ideas.

 

[yotsuya]

For most of us this is the bazillionth time we've encountered and discussed these theories, in fact I believe it was I, many yonks ago, who first pointed out that "engine" and "reactor" are not necessarily synonymous.

But in any case, I'll have to double check, but I don't believe TMOST specifies that the fuel in the secondary hull is anti-matter fuel. Most likely, keeping with Jefferies intention that the warp drive "engines" (his term) are powerful and dangerous and should be kept as far away from the habitable areas of the ship as possible, and thus be "quick change units", indicates that the pods/nacelles are the most likely place for anti-matter fuel storage ,with the matter half being safely stored in the secondary hull per TMOST. Also there abundant and consistent dialog from TOS that the anti-matter is in the pods/nacelles, and not anywhere else.

TMOST doesn't specify what fuel, but the only known fuels are the matter and anti-matter.

And even if some people didn't put the care into season 3, Jefferies was still the art director and would have been consulted about the systems. And I trust season 3 far more than TAS or even the later movies. Jefferies was back for Phase II and got things stated with Mike Minor helping and Andrew Probert taking over and Probert and Rick Sternbach tackling TNG. So there is a handoff of responsibility that makes looking at where things went to sort out TOS valid. It's not like I'm saying that the TOS Enterprise must have an identical system to the later refit. I'm saying that we should take all the references that literally or logically agree with it being a similar design to the refit as the most significant. We shouldn't be pulling out random lines of dialog that mention the main star drive or it's parts in passing. But instead focusing on the rare occasion when it became important enough to spend time on in the story. Paradise Syndrome (also season 3) agreed with Mudd's Women with having 4 circuts. Both spent time because it was important to the story. I'm sure that the rest of the production team didn't give up as much as Roddenberry had (he was the one massaging the stories to make them better and more consistent), so I don't think discounting the third season is valid. But, as we know that Roddenberry didn't work on the scripts for TAS and that none of the art department or technical advisors were 're even associated with it, I don't know why anyone would even consider any technical item from it. It doesn't have the credentials.

The idea of a matter nacelle and an anti-matter nacelle doesn't make any logical sense. I would consider any mention of such things a mistake. The writer could have meant tank and just not been corrected. There are many possibilities other than taking every line literally. Who knows if the writers had been corrected or the technical advisors consulted. But if they spent time on it and the technical advisors were involved then we can be more certain of their intentions, even in season 3.

 

[Henoch]

Definitive proof for multiple M/AM engines/reactors, late Season 3:
"That Which Survives"

SULU: The Enterprise must have blown up. That would explain the high radiation readings, wouldn't it, Captain? If the matter - antimatter engines​

"By Any Other Name"

SPOCK: There is one other possibility, Mister Scott. The final decision, of course, must be the captain's, but I believe we must have it ready for him. The Enterprise is propelled by matter-anti-matter reactors.​

The power technology was evolving throughout TOS Seasons:

1. Move to Dilithium during Season 1.
2. DTD added to middle of engine room floor for Season 2.
3. DTD crystal access hatch added for Season 3.
4. Antimatter control room added during Season 3.
5. Was the TOS Enterprise power system evolving into the Phase 2 system?
6. Vertical intermix balls/shaft in engine room in Phase 2. Front of nacelles still glowed orange.
7. Vertical intermix shaft with horizontal power conduit to warp engines in TMP. No orange glow in nacelles.

My read (YMMV):

1. Intermix chamber or shaft = M/AM reactor or reaction chamber for TOS and TMP. The TMP shaft is a more efficient reaction configuration thus generating more power.
2. Three M/AM systems in TOS. A M/AM engine/reactor in each nacelle as part of the warp drive. A third M/AM reactor in the engineering hull for main power generation.
3. Dilithium crystals in/near the M/AM reaction = main power or main energizers. Mysterious layout in both TOS and TMP.
4. Main power from the main energizers is feed to the warp engines in the nacelles through the horizontal power conduit, namely the pipe cathedral in TOS or the glowing blue horizontal conduit in TMP. For TOS, the warp engines also require main power for warp drive thus the reliance on the third M/AM reactor in the hull. For TMP, the warp engines only require main power for warp drive from the single, large M/AM reactor in the hull.
5. In TOS, antimatter fuel is stored in both nacelles with a small buffer pod in the engineering hull. In TMP, antimatter is stored in the engineering hull, only.
6. The antimatter engine or generator is in the engineering hull to refuel the antimatter. (I still think this is tied to the dilithium crystals, too, but it doesn't matter if it is a totally separate system. The bizarre subatomic particles (up/down quarks) resulting from the M/AM reaction may be needed to subatomically convert matter into antimatter, hence, my feeling it has something to do with the M/AM reaction plus magic dilithium crystals.)
7. Matter is stored in the engineering hull for TOS and TMP.
8. The space matter collectors are near the front of the nacelles for TOS and TMP. There must be a matter refinement/reprocessing system in the engineering hull to refuel the matter.

 

[Henoch]

New question; need your thoughts:

1. Could the terms intermix temperature, formula, chamber and shaft imply that matter and antimatter are somehow only mixed together but not reacted yet? In TOS, the matter-antimatter integrator may be intermixing the two streams. In TMP, the vertical intermix shaft does the same thing.
2. Is this unreacted dual-plasma fed into the warp engines were it is reacted for warp power, or fed into a separate matter/antimatter reaction chamber with dilithium crystals to provide main power for the ship?
3. Could the two ionized-plasma fuels be separated yet close together in tightly swirling electromagnetic fields?

 

[Mytran]

Not sure on that. "engines" or "main engines" get said a lot, but I cannot think of any time they were directly referenced as being the same thing in dialogue. "power nacelles" or "pods" might refer to nacelles directly.

For easy reference, here is all the dialogue in question:

NACELLES:

The Doomsday Machine, SPOCK: The energy generated by our power nacelles seems to attract {the DM}.
The Apple, KIRK: Discard the warp drive nacelles if you have to, and crack out of there with the main section, but get that ship out of there!
Bread And Circuses, SPOCK: {about the SS Beagle} Portions of the antimatter nacelles, personal belongings. Captain, no signs of bodies whatsoever.
By Any Other Name, SCOTT: I have opened the control valves to the matter-anti-matter nacelles.
The Savage Curtain, KIRK: Disengage nacelles, Jettison if possible.


PODS:

Errand of Mercy, SPOCK: {on the Klingon attack} Blast damage in decks ten and eleven, minor buckling in the antimatter pods, casualties very light.
Metamorphosis, SPOCK: {shuttle is caught by by the entity} Helm does not answer, Captain. / KIRK: Neither do the pods.
The Doomsday Machine, SCOTT: We made a complete check on structural and control damage, sir. As far as we can tell, something crashed through the deflectors and knocked out the generators. Somehow the antimatter in the warp drive pods has been deactivated.
The Apple, SCOTT: We're losing potency in our antimatter pods. I don't think it's serious, but we're looking into it.
{and later} SCOTT: Scott, sir. Our antimatter pods are completely inert.
I, Mudd NORMAN: I am in total control of your ship. I have connected the matter-antimatter pods to the main navigational bank. A trigger relay is now in operation. Any attempts to alter course will result in immediate destruction of this vessel.
Elaan of Troyius, SCOTT: The anti-matter pods are rigged to blow up the moment we go into warp drive.


MAIN / WARP ENGINES:

WNMHGB, SPOCK: Main engines are out, sir. We're on emergency power cells
{and later} KIRK: Captain's log, Star date 1312.9. Ship's condition, heading back on impulse power only. Main engines burned out. The ship's space warp ability gone.
{and later} KIRK: Captain's Log, Star date 1313.1. Kelso's task, transport down with a repair party, try to regenerate the main engines, save the ship.
Tomorrow is Yesterday, SPOCK: Engineering reports warp engines non-operational.
{and later} KIRK: Captain's log, supplemental. Engineering Officer Scott informs warp engines damaged, but can be made operational and reenergised.
The Apple, KIRK: If you can't get those warp engines working
Mirror, Mirror, SCOTT: I'll have to tap the power we need from the warp engines and balance it for the four of us.
Ultimate Computer, SPOCK: M-5 appears drawing power directly from the warp engines, tapping the matter-antimatter reserves.
Elaan of Troyius, SCOTT: Our shields will hold for a few passes, but without the matter-antimatter reactor, we've no chance. Captain, can you not call Starfleet on this emergency? / KIRK: And let the Klingons know they succeeded in wiping out our warp engines?
Tholian Web, SCOTT: Captain. We're losing power in the warp engines.
That Which Survives, SPOCK: Can you give me warp eight? / SCOTT: I'll sit on the warp engines myself and nurse them.
Lights Of Zetar, KIRK: Any damage to the warp engines?
Savage Curtain, ENGINEER: Lost all power in the warp engines.

 

[Mytran]

Matt Jefferies and Roddenberry both came from an aviation background, so their thoughts would tend towards an aviation model for their space ship too - IOW, power is generated in the nacelles and used for propulsion, with other power needs (in the case of a plane, electricity) drawn off those main engines as required. Aside from a couple of odd script choices in Season Three, TOS is very consistent with this model throughout, even up until the end of the series: In The Savage Curtain, shielding starts to break down around the antimatter and Kirk's suggestion is to jettison the nacelles.

Roddenberry was listed in the credits but I have never heard he was in any way involved with the production. I recall Dorothy Fontana saying he wasn't. He definitely was not involved in any of the day to day production. And the reason he removed it from canon had nothing to do with rights issues. The same reason FJ's work was exiled. It was about control and quality. TAS does not have the production care or quality he associated with his baby and he was not involved. As he is no longer around to tell us whether something might have changed his mind in the intervening years, I respect and agree with his decision. So it isn't my head canon, it is Gene's canon.

What GR might have felt personally about TAS, there was most definitely a rights issue at play when Filmation when bankrupt in 1989. GR also had a tendency to play down the legitimacy of his previous works whenever he started a new project. For example, he saw TMP as how his Star Trek "really" looked and in the novelisation of the film (which he authored) described the events of TOS as being a "dramatised" versions of the actual events, produced by the equivalent of a 23rd Century TV company. ST2, 3 & 4 all portrayed Starfleet as far more militaristic than GR liked and so when TNG came along he used it as another soft reboot of the franchise; the 23rd Century events still happened, but maybe not in the exact way portrayed on sceen (episodes like Relics and DS9's TAT would reverse this attitude of course, but GR was long gone by then). GR famously considered ST5 and ST6 to be non-canon as well.
As for Franz Joseph, GR personally signed off on the blueprints! He may have changed his mind later (when he actually began to work on live action Star Trek again) but again this is just par for the course with Gene, as we have seen.

Except The Making of Star Trek explicitly says otherwise. I'm glad you brought up TMoST, so we can add in what it says as well.

From page 191:

The two long nacelles, atop the ship and attached to the engineering hull by slender pylons, house the main starship engines. The engines are each 504 feet long, 60 feet in diameter, operate via controlled fusion of matter and anti-matter, creating the fantastic power required to run the Enterprise and drive it at faster-than-light speeds.​

I mean, it could hardly be clearer. The matter/antimatter reaction occurs in the engines that are housed inside the nacelles to create the fantastic power that drives the ship.

Granted, it's not a Roddenberry quote IN ALL CAPS, but it's as good as it gets in TMoST.

The description in TMOST can trace its routes back to the earliest series bible from Season One:

The two "outboard" nacelles contain matter and antimatter, a controlled intermixing of which creates the stupendous power needed {to exceed the speed of light} ​

and the more refined version from Season Three:

The Enterprise engines (the two outboard nacelles) use matter and anti-matter for propulsion, the annihilation of dual matter creating the fantastic power required to warp space and exceed the speed of light.​

The funny thing is TMOST emphasizes how large the secondary hull is and then only talks about the hanger.

The quip about the flight deck being large enough to house "a fleet of jetliners" is probably a hangover from the days when the size of the Enterprise hadn't been nailed down yet and in fact was at least twice the size of the one they eventually settled on:

WHAT ABOUT THE SHIP'S MAIN SAUCER-LIKE SECTION?
This is the portion of the shop in which we will be and which we will use most. It contains at the very top the ship's bridge and general operation facilities. This "saucer" is approximately twenty stories thick at its widest spot, containing also primary ship's departments, living accommodations, recreational facilities, laboratories, and is in fact a completely self-sustaining unit which can detach itself from the galaxy drive units and operate on atomic impulse power for short-range solar system exploration.​

This is why various Season One scripts made what in hindsight seem odd references to the ship's size; "almost a million gross tons of vessel" and to deck numbers which seem to be in the dorsal neck; "deck 12" (MW, EW) and "deck 14" (DOTM). On an Enterprise that has 20 decks in her saucer section, these suddenly all line up

Seemed like it was more engine equipment in the secondary hull. The blueprint would still be non-canon, correct?

I think if the "nacelle" room depicted in TAS were placed in the secondary hull, it would take up most of the internal space!
Unless it were on that double-sized Enterprise I mentioned upthread...

Even though we know that there are M/AM reactors in the warp engines in the warp nacelles, it doesn't sound like they generate energy for the ship to use and only are used to propel the ship. "That Which Survives" points to a single main source of energy and "The Paradise Syndrome" have the engines disconnected from the full power being generated. This suggests that there is a central M/AM reactor generating power and it's most likely in the secondary hull. Since the single main energy source is sabotaged then it's probably the same M/AM reactor. That leaves us (or just me) to imagine an antimatter fuel pod in the secondary hull feeding this M/AM reactor and that it is in a place where explosive separator charges can be used blow it clear of the ship.

This would reduce the importance of the M/AM reactors considerably though, since the central one (in the secondary hull) with the aid of dilithium crystals is doing the following:

1. Generating power for the ship systems
2. Generating sufficient extra power to supplement the nacelles' performance
3. Creating new antimatter to top up the fuel supplies

Basically, the central reactor is the MAIN reactor. Indeed, if the technology exists to safely house your main M/AM reactor inside the secondary hull and efficiently divert its output up to the nacelles, why have further reactors in the nacelles at all?

And when Spock overloads the systems in The Paradise Syndrome, the pipe structure goes from glowing golden to flashing blue at the back and then going dark when the systems are overloaded. They are not travelling at warp speeds so that would have to be something to do with the main power systems. It seems they blew that rather than the dilithium circuits that blew in Mudd's Women.

This makes perfect sense if most of that equipment in the Engine Rooms is devoted to controlling the output of the M/AM reaction and converting into shipboard power, especially for systems essential to FTL travel like the structural integrity field and inertial dampeners. Without those, the ship is limited to relativistic, STL travel only (which is what we see in the episode).

The Enterprise is supposed to be able to run for 18 years without refueling according to the writer's guide.

I don't recall seeing that anywhere except Franz Joseph's work - and even then it was in the form of "Range 18 years at light-year velocity". Wouldn't this indicate a maximum range of 18 light years?

In The Apple, Scotty similarly refers to the Enterprise warp drive (singular). Then Kirk tells him to discard the warp drive and nacelles if he has to and get the main section out of there.

Kirk's line in the Apple makes it clear that the warp drive and the nacelles are distinct.

Just to clarify - Kirk does not order Scott to discard the warp drive and nacelles, he order him to discard the warp drive nacelles - IOW, the nacelles are the warp drive.

Paradise Syndrome (also season 3) agreed with Mudd's Women with having 4 circuts.

It's a similar situation (overloading the ship's systems to achieve a task) but TPS doesn't make reference to the number of dilithium crystal circuits used - indeed, you could interpret the dialogue to mean that there's now just the one!

 

[yotsuya]

I think that instead of referring to dialog transcripts, you need to watch the episodes/scenes in question. In The Apple Kirk doesn't say warp drive nacelles, he says warp drive 'n nacelles. The n is far too long to just be the word nacelle. And I really don't care what is in TAS. Especially not what they drew without consulting anyone.

And the 18 years comes from the series pitch and Bible, materials FJ would have had access to. That is where the gross weight of 190,000 tons comes from as well.

 

[Mytran]

I think that instead of referring to dialog transcripts, you need to watch the episodes/scenes in question. In The Apple Kirk doesn't say warp drive nacelles, he says warp drive 'n nacelles. The n is far too long to just be the word nacelle.

What makes you think I don't? The transcripts are a useful tool but they're not always perfect. In any case, I did re-listen before I posted, just to be sure. The elongation of the "n" is so slight that it's inconclusive at best and even if what you say is true then it means Shatner clearly enunciated every single word of his dialogue except that one. The actors in TOS were rarely mumblers and I don't think this is any exception - it's a dramatic moment and Shatner is playing it as such.
Has anyone got an original copy of The Apple script we can refer to? It won't change Shatner's delivery, but would demonstrate authorial intent.

And I really don't care what is in TAS. Especially not what they drew without consulting anyone.

As I said, Gene Roddenberry would be happy to agree with you - depending on which year you happened to ask him. Wait too long and TOS would be lumped in with the category of "questionable canon" too!

And the 18 years comes from the series pitch and Bible, materials FJ would have had access to. That is where the gross weight of 190,000 tons comes from as well.

I stand corrected, it's right there on page 9 of the series pitch;

RANGE: 18 years at galaxy patrol speeds​

That's also the document which gives the ship's maximum speed of 0.73 light year per hour, a speed consistent with the events in The Cage but not much else in the Trek universe.
It's also in the first writer's guide;

RANGE: 18 years at light-year velocity​

It seem likely that this is where FJ got his info on range from but still begs the question - does it mean that the maximum range of the Enterprise is 18 light years?
Strangely, there is no mention of the maximum range in the later (revised) version of the writer's guide.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

What makes you think I don't? The transcripts are a useful tool but they're not always perfect.

Exactly, and yep.

RANGE: 18 years at light-year velocity

That was always an odd statistic.

OK, just speculating: maybe it means that the engines are specced so that they can operate continuously at warp one for 18 years without returning to a starbase. That would imply that the engines are not designed to operate continuously at higher warp factors for the same period. And accordingly it would imply that if the ship exceeds warp one ever (which of course is always going to happen in practice), then either the engines must be rested for some period, or the ship must return to a starbase within 18 years, or else the warp drive will be useless. No doubt the relationship between working lifetime, warp factor profile, and rest/revving down needed is complicated. Perhaps also no amount of resting will extend the working lifetime beyond a some number of years much less than 18 (e.g. hypothetically 5 years) if some warp factor (e.g. hypothetically WF 8) is ever reached or exceeded.

It would of course also imply that the ship has enough stores to keep the crew alive for 18 years.

This would explain why Kirk orders warp one as much as he does instead of jumping straight to warp five or six: he's going easy on the engines to extend their lifetime.

I don't know if the 5-year mission thing was ever definitely established to be potentially accomplished without ever returning to a starbase. Obviously, the Enterprise got so damaged that she needed to return to base on more than one occasion including "Court Martial."

 

[blssdwlf]

This would reduce the importance of the M/AM reactors considerably though, since the central one (in the secondary hull) with the aid of dilithium crystals is doing the following:

1. Generating power for the ship systems
2. Generating sufficient extra power to supplement the nacelles' performance
3. Creating new antimatter to top up the fuel supplies

Basically, the central reactor is the MAIN reactor. Indeed, if the technology exists to safely house your main M/AM reactor inside the secondary hull and efficiently divert its output up to the nacelles, why have further reactors in the nacelles at all?

I'm thinking that the nacelle reactors/engines are necessary for creating the space warp. Probably to some extent, the central reactor helps with that. And from my viewpoint, I'm trying to account for all examples, not just a specific range (the Thermian approach).

Also the central one makes it convenient for a single energizer and crystal converter location as they can be physically close to each other

 

[Mres_was_framed!]

It's a nacelle.

They literally say they're going to insert the antimatter into a chamber in one of the nacelles, and then they enter a never-before-seen part of the ship that looks like it's in a long cylinder and insert the antimatter into a chamber. What else could it be, except a nacelle?

Mandel's nacelle blueprint that I referred to with its "hall of tubes" is clearly inspired by the scene in question, so clearly he thought so, too. Memory Alpha agrees as well.

Here are TrekCore screencaps. Notice how the gangway through the "hall of tubes" is down the center-line of a long cylinder.

http://tas.trekcore.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=44&page=15
http://tas.trekcore.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=3&page=7

Exactly, and yep.


That was always an odd statistic.

OK, just speculating: maybe it means that the engines are specced so that they can operate continuously at warp one for 18 years without returning to a starbase. That would imply that the engines are not designed to operate continuously at higher warp factors for the same period. And accordingly it would imply that if the ship exceeds warp one ever (which of course is always going to happen in practice), then either the engines must be rested for some period, or the ship must return to a starbase within 18 years, or else the warp drive will be useless. No doubt the relationship between working lifetime, warp factor profile, and rest/revving down needed is complicated. Perhaps also no amount of resting will extend the working lifetime beyond a some number of years much less than 18 (e.g. hypothetically 5 years) if some warp factor (e.g. hypothetically WF 8) is ever reached or exceeded.

It would of course also imply that the ship has enough stores to keep the crew alive for 18 years.

This would explain why Kirk orders warp one as much as he does instead of jumping straight to warp five or six: he's going easy on the engines to extend their lifetime.

I don't know if the 5-year mission thing was ever definitely established to be potentially accomplished without ever returning to a starbase. Obviously, the Enterprise got so damaged that she needed to return to base on more than one occasion including "Court Martial."

Interestingly, 2245 plus 18 equals 2263, or the year Pike returned from his second 5-year mission supposedly. 2263 plus 18 equals 2281, or approximately the time of ST:III. Maye this is related to the refit cycle?

I presume that 18 years meant an emergency survival time, like if the vessel was stranded without warp drive but with no other damage, it could make it alive for 18 years while trying to reach a starbase.

Interestingly, the TNG ship and Voyager both still needed significant work during after five years, even though they had not specifically made for that length of journey. Voyager needed it warp coils cleaned and there was a cleaning of the TNG ship in Season Six.

I envision the room shown in TAS to be not actually inside the area above the pipe structure in the secondary hull, where the power transfer conduits head up to the pylons. Imagine being the in TOS engine room and going up the ladder but turning right and going through the door into that windowed section, then through another door into the area where the pipes meet. In TMP, this would be the same area shown as the far back of the engine room set.

Kirk and Scotty place the bottle behind the door, and the physical lift takes it up to one nacelle.

When Scotty has to insert the magnetic probe in the live action episode, he is in another part of the same area, this time accessed through a crawlway directly by the reactor, and not on the walkway by the pipes.

If I dare bring up parallel universes for examples, not only would this rectify several live action and animated examples in the original universe, but this would work really well for the Kelvin, which apparently has its engine room in its warp nacelle, and would then have only the one engine system. It also would work well for the NX-01, which would have all that equipment out in the open room; Drexler had designed the engine room to be in the pod at the rear that the writers later called "symmetrical warp governor" instead. If that were the engine location, it would be a third reactor like might be in TOS, regulating the other two. Earlier ships would truly have reactors in just the nacelles, with the nacelles being true engines at that point.

Thus, the engine room could be far forward in the hull, with a long structure running to the pylons, such as the effect in "Day of the Dove" might imply.