Engine Room(s) on the TOS Enterprise (revisited)

[Henoch]

These shots bust the FP model so much that I am not surprised that Blssdwlf just went with the angled unit in the end!

Bad camera angles are not a good reason to abandon the intent of the set designers. Then you'd be telling me that there's 20 identical engineering control rooms scattered all over the ship:

Kirk: Scotty, where are you.
Scott: <sigh> I'm in engineering, as always.
Kirk (confused): The one next to the bathrooms on deck 3?​

 

[erastus25]

Scanning back through this thread and I didn't see reference to this excellent site with some meticulous analysis of how the engineering set changed by episode:
http://www.trekplace.com/article14.html

 

[Henoch]

Scanning back through this thread and I didn't see reference to this excellent site with some meticulous analysis of how the engineering set changed by episode:
http://www.trekplace.com/article14.html

Excellent article. Read it a while back. The author ran out of steam after season 1. He also drew no conclusions or suggested any in-universe explanations about the changes such as, was there more than one S1 engine room and where was it? This engine room "revisit" originally started as a S3 engine room discussion, and as customary on this site, morphs into whatever. Love it.

 

[Henoch]

Newest little nit: just watched the Ultimate Computer to check out the long curved corridor to "engineering section" which is the standard S2 ER. Kirk et. al. get out of a side turbolift (first door down from normal turbolift on end of corridor, door on wall on outside curvature of hall). They clearly walk down the full corridor into the engine room with no camera breaks. I hate to say it, but it looks like this engine room is back in the saucer, again. Damn. I also noticed, but it may just be a camera angle trick to my eye, that the street light GNDN is cranked a quarter turn CCW like a large switch selector knob.

 

[F. King Daniel]

At what point though do we draw the line and say "it's only a TV show"? Franz Joseph's blueprints were his idealised version of the Enterprise interior. Sometimes taking what's on-screen 100% literally is never gonna work, like almost every room on the Next Gen Enterprise having the same windows despite the curve of the saucer meaning they should all be different, or the corridor outside the reboot Enterprise bridge extending beyond the front window.

 

[BK613]

A good question, because the FP units are not exact matches for one another in the plans. The S1 set plan has so many little anomalies and was such a work in progress that I'd be tempted to use the S2 plans and just trace the position of the pipes from the S1 equivalent.

Okay. I just thought someone with better resources had figured it out. Only thing one can come up with then is a range of lengths (has to be at least this long, can't be longer that that.)

 

[BK613]

At what point though do we draw the line and say "it's only a TV show"?

Well obviously, from the first moment we watch. Still it can be fun to try and make it all work, and though, ultimately, it ends up being an exercise in futility, it's still fun to try.
I also find it interesting to see the different emphases people will put on elements and the different interpretations to what is shown on screen. But mostly because it is fun to do.

 

[Henoch]

At what point though do we draw the line and say "it's only a TV show"? Franz Joseph's blueprints were his idealised version of the Enterprise interior. Sometimes taking what's on-screen 100% literally is never gonna work, like almost every room on the Next Gen Enterprise having the same windows despite the curve of the saucer meaning they should all be different, or the corridor outside the reboot Enterprise bridge extending beyond the front window.

I agree that the sets will not fit, but I like to incorporate the "concept" of the sets into a ship as a fun activity. Currently, I'm only focusing on the 947' size Engineering Hull with most effort on the engine room(s) issues. I'm also adding in the next "degree of separation" which means "what's logically next to the area we see on screen. It's a general ship arrangement idea. The goal is to use past efforts from our BBS friends, keep it simple and still fit in the hull. Unfortunately, I'm slow.

 

[uniderth]

At what point though do we draw the line and say "it's only a TV show"?

NEVER! Don't refuse us our insanity, or Bonk Bonk bad kid!

 

[Mytran]

Bad camera angles are not a good reason to abandon the intent of the set designers. Then you'd be telling me that there's 20 identical engineering control rooms scattered all over the ship:

Kirk: Scotty, where are you.
Scott: <sigh> I'm in engineering, as always.
Kirk (confused): The one next to the bathrooms on deck 3?​

I thought we settled this a few weeks back, when I debunked my own claim of there being 3 Engine Rooms in the saucer?

The sad fact is, although the FP unit was designed to represent a 90' long structure, it was mostly filmed in such a manner as to suggest something far shorter.

I suppose it comes down to what you want to give the stronger credence to - designer intent or what's onscreen. If the former, then you need not worry about that curved corridor in TUC, since it can easily be seen as representing a sequence of corridors in the secondary hull instead of the actual set.

 

[lawman]

I suppose it comes down to what you want to give the stronger credence to - designer intent or what's onscreen. If the former, then you need not worry about that curved corridor in TUC, since it can easily be seen as representing a sequence of corridors in the secondary hull instead of the actual set.

It can't be all one or all the other, though, really. Both designers' intent (on paper) and what's on screen (built sets) have their own compromises baked in. I tend to lean toward the latter (i.e., there's a curved corridor leading to the Engine Room seen in "TUC"), but informed by the former (i.e., the designers intended lots of curved corridors in the ship, so the one we "saw" may not have those exact dimensions or those exact doors leading off it — especially since we know what's behind those doors, and it doesn't all belong on the same deck).

IMHO storytellers' intent is also a factor, and one that helps to reconcile the other two. What impression did the producers and writers and director want the audience to perceive? Whoever shot that scene wanted us to pick up on the long curved corridor walk (hence the single take)... but had no choice about what corridor to shoot it in (there was only one!), so presumably didn't really want us to wonder about the specific doors and cross-corridors.

 

[blssdwlf]

I agree that the sets will not fit, but I like to incorporate the "concept" of the sets into a ship as a fun activity. Currently, I'm only focusing on the 947' size Engineering Hull with most effort on the engine room(s) issues. I'm also adding in the next "degree of separation" which means "what's logically next to the area we see on screen. It's a general ship arrangement idea. The goal is to use past efforts from our BBS friends, keep it simple and still fit in the hull. Unfortunately, I'm slow.

Speaking strictly of the 947' TOS Enterprise, what seen interiors will not fit in the hull other than the flight deck? The TMP Enterprise and Enterprise-D definitely have interiors that have questionable fit (recreation deck being one and IIRC, Ten Forward.) But TOS Enterprise?

It can't be all one or all the other, though, really. Both designers' intent (on paper) and what's on screen (built sets) have their own compromises baked in. I tend to lean toward the latter (i.e., there's a curved corridor leading to the Engine Room seen in "TUC"), but informed by the former (i.e., the designers intended lots of curved corridors in the ship, so the one "saw" may not have those exact dimensions or those exact doors leading off it — especially since we know what's behind those doors, and it doesn't all belong on the same deck).

IMHO storytellers' intent is also a factor, and one that helps to reconcile the other two. What impression did the writers and producers want the audience to perceive? Whoever shot that scene wanted us to pick up on the long curved corridor walk (hence the single take)... but had no choice about what corridor to shoot it in (there was only one!), so presumably didn't really want us to wonder about the specific doors and cross-corridors.

Personally, I think we all are our own storytellers when we play in this sandbox. We're all internally reconciling what we see with what we are told by the countless sources of information on the subject and telling ourselves the story that makes sense to us.

For myself, I stopped equating the "built set" to what's "shown on screen" - more specifically, I only consider what parts of the set are actually shown to the camera and ignore the parts of the set that are connected to it but not shown for a scene. That's just me and I know that others have their own rules for consistency.

Also, I'd love to see someone really really really take designer's intent and be true to it. Ignore what's shown on screen. Use the designer's imagination as the guide and rulebook and build off of it. (However that'd make threads like this on placement details pretty moot - just follow the design! )

As always YMMV

 

[Mytran]

... the one "saw" may not have those exact dimensions or those exact doors leading off it — especially since we know what's behind those doors, and it doesn't all belong on the same deck).

Given how often some of those sets were redressed into something else, I don't think we need to worry about what standing sets may or may not be behind the doors

Also, I'd love to see someone really really really take designer's intent and be true to it. Ignore what's shown on screen. Use the designer's imagination as the guide and rulebook and build off of it.

Does that mean that the turbolift on the Bridge would be restored to its proper place behind the Captain's chair? It was only moved to make easier camera shot compositions, after all...

 

[lawman]

For myself, I stopped equating the "built set" to what's "shown on screen" - more specifically, I only consider what parts of the set are actually shown to the camera and ignore the parts of the set that are connected to it but not shown for a scene.

That seems reasonable. But in the case of "TUC" we literally see them walking the length of the whole damn corridor set, so it doesn't leave much to the imagination!...

(FWIW, my (current, provisional) sense of things is that the S2 engine room dimensions fit better in the saucer section, and there's a matched, mirror-symmetrical set of them there... which leaves the S1 engine room design for the Engineering hull, putting a symmetrical set of them down there... where there's also at least one curved (or circular?) corridor, and otherwise an arrangement very much like your fantastic internal schematics from that thread a few years ago.)

 

[blssdwlf]

That seems reasonable. But in the case of "TUC" we literally see them walking the length of the whole damn corridor set, so it doesn't leave much to the imagination!...

For "The Ultimate Computer" the imagination is deciding where to place the long curved corridor in the ship But I guess the question is that a bad thing to see that there is a long curved corridor?

(FWIW, my (current, provisional) sense of things is that the S2 engine room dimensions fit better in the saucer section, and there's a matched, mirror-symmetrical set of them there... which leaves the S1 engine room design for the Engineering hull, putting a symmetrical set of them down there... where there's also at least one curved (or circular?) corridor, and otherwise an arrangement very much like your fantastic internal schematics from that thread a few years ago.)

Yep, as long as it works for you that's the way to go

Does that mean that the turbolift on the Bridge would be restored to its proper place behind the Captain's chair? It was only moved to make easier camera shot compositions, after all...

Why not? Let the conceptual illustrations pave the way.

 

[Henoch]

Finished some research on Season 2 Engine Room data. I need your help, guys. The data from Season 2 is very confusing. I'd like to tackle one specific topic first, namely, the Constellation Engine Room. Even though it is not the Enterprise, it was the first appearance of new room with new entry foyer, ladder and walkway above the wall consoles and our old friend, the Double Triangular Doohickey (DTD) <sigh, I've joined the club> with the heat sink on its center box. The data is a mess, so, a chronological analysis was needed, but it still is a mess. Here's a dedicated post just on The Doomsday Machine. On Constellation:

1. Scott heads down a tri-ladder while McCoy and Kirk walk off up normally “curved corridor set ” but only ~10 feet is shown and nondescript.
2. Scott enters dark ER from little room on catwalk.
   1. Lights are off.
   2. 1st app. of DTD
   3. DTD w blue heat sink but the opposite side away from the wall consoles
   4. DTD nub toward pipes
   5. Gold Ball on DTD non-nub lid
   6. One gold ball on side of DTD is blown up.
   7. Recycled damaged vertical conduit next to DTD
   8. 1st app. of new S2 ER. (This may be the warp engine control room.)
3. Kirk finds small looking room with small table for a break room. Corridor is nondescript.
4. Scott walks offscreen toward ER foyer area to check on engines.
5. Scott comes up tri-ladder and returns to the beam-in point to meet Kirk.
6. Kirk and Scott head down “Jeffries Tube set” hall across from ladder to go to Aux. Control.
7. Kirk finds Decker in Aux. Control Room. Corridor is nondescript.
8. Scott spends some time in Aux. Control on other side of screens. Access to this area is from another hallway door.
9. Scott back in ER:
   1. Talking to Kirk by catwalk ladder.
   2. Scott gets trident tool from yellow tool cabinet and walks out foyer to tie impulse engines to warp controls.
   3. (Two engine rooms suggested? Both impulse and warp control rooms are close together?)
   4. Scott at ER wall console by big sliders (impulse controls?) to do the tie in. (Does this represent another ER perhaps, the old S1 ER set? Or did Scott just return to the first/only ER after a short trip with the trident to a Jeffries tube?)
   5. Scott is back in dark ER working on the DTD with trident tool on heat sink. (Is he switching in the warp controls to handle the impulse engines?)
   6. Gold Ball is removed from top of DTD, but it is the same DTD as indicated by the blown up ball on the side.(Scott must have removed the ball for the repairs.)
   7. Scott is in dark ER at side wall control consoles nearest pipes with gold shirt and blue shirt crew turning on impulse engines from warp controls.
   8. A sudden jolt as Constellation overcomes inertia. Aux. Control tilted first toward view screen, then backwards towards door.
   9. (S1 TIY footage inserted here.) Scott at a new control console in center of room, slightly brighter lit.
   10. (S1 TIY footage inserted here.) ER tilted first left, then right as he hangs onto the pipe screen. (Tilts suggest Aux. Control may be at a perpendicular angle to the engine room, ~90 degrees, maybe with Aux. Control facing starboard and pipes aft. If Aux. facing port, then pipes are forward.)
   11. Scott standing in dark ER and talking by catwalk ladder.”Phasers? You've got ‘em."
   12. Scott siting in very dark ER and talking at Foyer Control Console.
   13. Scott is standing and talking all alone in the very dark ER after repair team transported back.
10. Scott arrives in Aux. Control after setting up detonation switch for impulse engines.

My conclusion: All Engine Room action was in the same room. Inter spliced S1 footage was meant to be the same engine room just for the tilt scenes. Setting up tilt action with cameras must be limited to one set of cameras or time consuming in production, therefore, they reused the old footage. My two areas of confusion are underlined above, "why does Scott walk out of the engine room through the foyer carrying the trident tool?", and the center control console was not seen in the initial engine room scenes. Could it be suggested that there are two engine rooms? Maybe, but the simplest answer is no, there was only one room. As for location in the ship: no conclusion from this episode.

 

[blssdwlf]

Finished some research on Season 2 Engine Room data. I need your help, guys. The data from Season 2 is very confusing. I'd like to tackle one specific topic first, namely, the Constellation Engine Room. Even though it is not the Enterprise, it was the first appearance of new room with new entry foyer, ladder and walkway above the wall consoles and our old friend, the Double Triangular Doohickey (DTD) <sigh, I've joined the club> with the heat sink on its center box. The data is a mess, so, a chronological analysis was needed, but it still is a mess. Here's a dedicated post just on The Doomsday Machine. On Constellation:

1. Scott heads down a tri-ladder while McCoy and Kirk walk off up normally “curved corridor set ” but only ~10 feet is shown and nondescript.

IMHO Scott's party crawled through a series of ladders and accessways to get to the little room on the catwalk.

1. Scott enters dark ER from little room on catwalk.
   1. Lights are off.
   2. 1st app. of DTD
   3. DTD w blue heat sink but the opposite side away from the wall consoles
   4. DTD nub toward pipes
   5. Gold Ball on DTD non-nub lid
   6. One gold ball on side of DTD is blown up.
   7. Recycled damaged vertical conduit next to DTD
   8. 1st app. of new S2 ER. (This may be the warp engine control room.)
2. Kirk finds small looking room with small table for a break room. Corridor is nondescript.
3. Scott walks offscreen toward ER foyer area to check on engines.
4. Scott comes up tri-ladder and returns to the beam-in point to meet Kirk.
5. Kirk and Scott head down “Jeffries Tube set” hall across from ladder to go to Aux. Control.
6. Kirk finds Decker in Aux. Control Room. Corridor is nondescript.
7. Scott spends some time in Aux. Control on other side of screens. Access to this area is from another hallway door.
8. Scott back in ER:
   1. Talking to Kirk by catwalk ladder.
   2. Scott gets trident tool from yellow tool cabinet and walks out foyer to tie impulse engines to warp controls.

It looked more like he walked with the tool into the foyer where the foyer free standing console is.

1. 1. (Two engine rooms suggested? Both impulse and warp control rooms are close together?)
   2. Scott at ER wall console by big sliders (impulse controls?) to do the tie in. (Does this represent another ER perhaps, the old S1 ER set? Or did Scott just return to the first/only ER after a short trip with the trident to a Jeffries tube?)
   3. Scott is back in dark ER working on the DTD with trident tool on heat sink. (Is he switching in the warp controls to handle the impulse engines?)
   4. Gold Ball is removed from top of DTD, but it is the same DTD as indicated by the blown up ball on the side.(Scott must have removed the ball for the repairs.)
   5. Scott is in dark ER at side wall control consoles nearest pipes with gold shirt and blue shirt crew turning on impulse engines from warp controls.
   6. A sudden jolt as Constellation overcomes inertia. Aux. Control tilted first toward view screen, then backwards towards door.
   7. (S1 TIY footage inserted here.) Scott at a new control console in center of room, slightly brighter lit.
   8. (S1 TIY footage inserted here.) ER tilted first left, then right as he hangs onto the pipe screen. (Tilts suggest Aux. Control may be at a perpendicular angle to the engine room, ~90 degrees, maybe with Aux. Control facing starboard and pipes aft. If Aux. facing port, then pipes are forward.)

IMO, it can be interpreted as:
1. Kirk says, "Scotty give me that power!" and Scott says, "You've got it... I can't do better" we see Scott next to a blue shirt and yellow shirt crew.
2. Kirk says, "Full ahead Mister Scott". Scott has moved to a different engine room or a different part of the same engine room (opposite wall?) where there is no DTD in front of the large grill and instead there is a free standing console. For grins, there is a red crew "outfit" hanging on the wall between the side consoles and the grill. This "different" engine room has a catwalk ladder on the side consoles. (The blue and yellow shirt guys are still in the other engine room.)

YMMV

 

[Henoch]

For grins, there is a red crew "outfit" hanging on the wall between the side consoles and the grill.

I missed putting the brief flash of the mystery man in red coveralls in the tilt scene. Scott wore the only red shirt on the Constellation that we saw. There could have been other repair crew beamed over that we didn't get to see. That S1 footage should not have been used. If they couldn't film a new engine room tilting, then don't show it at all and rely that the tilting drama up in the Aux. Control would be enough. After Kirk got tossed around, they could have shown the guys in the engine room just getting off the floor and saying, "Wow, that was rough." In addition, the tilt directions are screwed up, again. I'm in the camp to ignore the tilt directions, and enjoy that the ship tilts and throws the crew around the room-"ha,ha,ha, look at them flop-that was exciting".

 

[lawman]

My conclusion: All Engine Room action was in the same room. Inter spliced S1 footage was meant to be the same engine room just for the tilt scenes.

Yeah, that seems like the simplest and most reasonable solution, although perhaps not the most satisfying.

As for location in the ship: no conclusion from this episode.

Well, not this episode alone, at least. We know from the ladder climb, and later dialogue, that Scotty was on a level somewhere below Kirk, who was in Auxiliary Control. We also know from "I, Mudd" (same season) that at least on the Enterprise, the (an?) Auxiliary Control room is on deck eight. There's no feasible way any engine room could fit on deck nine or lower in the saucer section, so that implies a location in the secondary hull.

 

[blssdwlf]

I missed putting the brief flash of the mystery man in red coveralls in the tilt scene. Scott wore the only red shirt on the Constellation that we saw. There could have been other repair crew beamed over that we didn't get to see. That S1 footage should not have been used.

I agree using the S1 footage should not have been used, but what the heck, I'll make due with the lemons The good news is that you don't see the red coverall guy's head or hands. The way I'm going to interpret it is that due to the sudden jolt and the emergency situation, a set of "empty" red coveralls dropped for emergency use

Alternatively, one of the other guys switched into the red coveralls and went with Scott to the no DTD area.