I'm being anal about this, but I take issue with your calling them "billy clubs". "Belaying pins" is perhaps a more accurate Naval designation, though whatever function they were supposed to serve on a spacefaring vessel we never did find out.
Engine Room(s) on the TOS Enterprise (revisited)
- Thread starter Henoch
- Start date
I'm being anal about this, but I take issue with your calling them "billy clubs". "Belaying pins" is perhaps a more accurate Naval designation, though whatever function they were supposed to serve on a spacefaring vessel we never did find out.
The part that bugs me is that if the Klingons "control" deck 6 then how does Kirk and co move between deck 7 and the bridge? How does McCoy and Spock lead a force down to Engineering for the final battle? I think the "control" is tenuous or porous at best and based on who can freely move around that deck versus those that are trapped behind a bulkhead or in a room.
they may may be dual energizing coils to on-line re-amplify the DC to replace the off-line dilithium crystal energizer (DCE) seen in TAF https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Energizer. Since Mres likes the new term "synchrotron", which sounds cool
Thanks,!! However, credit where it is due: calling that unit a "syncrotron" comes from Franz Joseph. I just think it makes sense in the context we are discussing for its use now, especially if it helps power the saucer.
Probably it does replace the room of crystals from that episode.
I say it could be the TOP of the main energizer which is then small enough in diameter to fit down through the neck and connect with the secondary hull, like TMP.
I think at least one version could be, because like the quotes above suggest, it might be directing power to different parts of the ship.
I agree that it could fill that function, for the reasons I said above. I saw the quote about the neck, and I like the fact that this gives the neck an engineering function, especially since it would make ships with no secondary hull a way to have a separate warp system. But I also favor some kind of horizontal intermix shaft in the secondary hull, too, to explain why it has that particular shape.
If you look at the diagram in the briefing lounge that the Klingons are viewing, I think that the yellow areas are the crew areas where people a trapped. And "below decks" is the expression, but not really indicative of height in terms of decks in this case, much different from saying "lower decks."
It does make sense for the recreation facilities, like the arboretum, to be in the secondary hull, though, because then a ship for a longer mission with a secondary hull would have those plus more engine and shuttle space, while a smaller ship, or rather one without a secondary hull, would then likely have a shorter mission.
http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/thumbnails.php?album=69&page=19
The nautical term "lower decks" is a factor in this discussion. Dialog of topic:
UHURA: Captain, reports coming in from the lower decks. Emergency bulkheads have closed. Almost four hundred crewmen are trapped down there, sir.
SCOTT [OC]: Three hundred and ninety two trapped below decks.
KIRK: Mister Sulu. Get below. Take command of Engineering and auxiliary control.
KANG: In time, in time. We must take these sections. First, Engineering.
SCOTT: Scott here, sir. There's no use trying to free those men down below.
SPOCK: Scans indicate that our forces and those of the Klingons are exactly equal at thirty eight each. The Klingons control deck six and starboard deck seven, while we control all sections above.
SCOTT: They've taken Engineering. I don't know how many more of those Klingons are around, but we'll split up here and try to make it back to the bridge.
UHURA: Sickbay calling, Doctor. There are more wounded men requiring your attention.
KANG [OC]: I have captured your engineering section. I now control this ship's power and life-support systems.
KIRK: Get down to emergency manual control. Try to protect our life-support circuits and auxiliary power.
KANG: One of Kirk's tricks. Could he bypass this circuit? What power is it that supports our battle yet starves our victory? Power. Interrupt it at their main life-support couplings. Where?
MARA: Number six deck. (to Klingon) Come.
SPOCK: Alien detected in the engineering section, near reactor number three.
Last edited:
It seems that they used "lower decks" and "below decks" interchangeably in the same episode ("Day of the Dove"). In naval terms it can mean below the main deck and/or enlisted crew quarters. The question is what decks are "above" them or what is the "main deck"?
As for recreation facilities, "Charlie X" and "Let That Be Your Last Battlefield" establish that there are at least 6 recreation rooms with some on deck 3 and on deck 5.
If you look at the diagram referenced, if the red spaces are open areas (because the bridge would be open) then there is a path to the engineering hull's engine room. And if the ship has only 11 decks total then deck 6 would be reachable. I prefer to think that the red spaces and lines represent environmental sections with multiple decks inside them though...
As for recreation facilities, "Charlie X" and "Let That Be Your Last Battlefield" establish that there are at least 6 recreation rooms with some on deck 3 and on deck 5.
If you look at the diagram referenced, if the red spaces are open areas (because the bridge would be open) then there is a path to the engineering hull's engine room. And if the ship has only 11 decks total then deck 6 would be reachable. I prefer to think that the red spaces and lines represent environmental sections with multiple decks inside them though...
If the episode occurs during the "night shift" of the ship, most would be in their quarters which must be in outer corridors off the central core of the saucer. Few crew would be in the central core sections of the saucer and maybe in the engineering hull. The only parts of the decks that are open to our heroes are Bridge, Sick Bay, Armory, Auxiliary Control, Emergency Manual Control, Transporter Room and Engineering Section (that controls power and life support near reactor number three). Since the Pin Wheel exits Engineering and pops out the engineering hull, then an Engine Room in the saucer A) doesn't exist, or B) it was called Emergency Manual Control, or C) was locked up off the central core of the saucer or D) was locked up on the port side of Deck 7 (change my vote here), or E) was locked up on Deck 8
When the Klingons took Engineering, they must have abandoned control of Deck 6 and starboard Deck 7, or left them sparsely manned, but safe enough for Mara to roam with one guard on Deck 6. Chekov hunts by himself on Deck 6. Kirk and Spock encounter no enemy on their way to Engineering on Deck 6. Maybe Chekov was clearing the deck ahead of them. If Sick Bay was filling up, then the Klingon wounded were also pilling up some place (crew lounge Deck 6 or 7?).
Last edited:
The dedicated access from Deck 5 to 7 could be via a ladderway that has had its Deck 6 bulkhead closed off by the Pinwheel Alien, or else there's a multi-deck spanning room that the crew can use to enter at Deck 5 (or 4) and exit at Deck 7 - the main computer core, perhaps?.
Notice that under normal operations (during JTB) Kirk leads the tour party from the right (facing the yellow door by the Jefferies Tube). In DOTD Spock leads the attack party from the left hand corridor. This is consistent with Starboard Deck 7 still being under the control of the Klingons (or at least inaccessible to the crew).
Okay, @Harvey checked for me and I went to the production docs and shooting schedules, and you were right about the Bridge being the only Enterprise set on Stage 15 for the 1st pilot. I shared this on another thread (link), but here's the complete list of sets for both pilots by soundstage for anyone who's interested. Note that all of the Enterprise sets that had been on Stage 16 moved to 15 for the WNMGHB. No Enterprise sets were on Stage 16 for the second go round.For The Cage, they still used stages 15 and 16 at Desliu-Culver, but the Bridge was by itself on 15, all the other Enterprise sets were on 16. I put this together from a couple screencaps that shows the extent of the Stage 16 sets, except for the Transporter Room to the right, couldn't get a decent shot from that side:
Basically, they had the three sets adjacent to each other, connected by the bit of corridor. The briefing room stayed in the same spot, that second A-frame between Pike and the briefing room was moved elsewhere in the set in WMNHGB. What was the door for Pike's quarters became the turbolift door.
PILOT 1
DESILU CULVER STAGE 14
PARKLAND (Mohave)
DESILU CULVER STAGE 15
INT. MAIN BRIDGE
EXT. ORION COURTYARD
INT. MENAGERIE (all sets)
DESILU CULVER STAGE 16EXT. ORION COURTYARD
INT. MENAGERIE (all sets)
INT. ORION CORRIDOR
INT. HELL-FIRE
INT. TRANSPORTER ROOM
INT. BRIEFING ROOM
INT. ENTERPRISE PASSAGEWAY
INT. CAPTAIN'S QUARTERS
EXT. TALOS IV (all locations)
40 ACRESINT. HELL-FIRE
INT. TRANSPORTER ROOM
INT. BRIEFING ROOM
INT. ENTERPRISE PASSAGEWAY
INT. CAPTAIN'S QUARTERS
EXT. TALOS IV (all locations)
EXT. RIGEL FORTRESS
PILOT 2
DESILU CULVER STAGE 15
INT. MAIN BRIDGE & ELEVATOR
INT. TRANSPORTER ROOM
INT. BRIEFING ROOM
INT. SHIP'S CORRIDOR(S)
iNT. SICKBAY
DESILU CULVER STAGE 16INT. TRANSPORTER ROOM
INT. BRIEFING ROOM
INT. SHIP'S CORRIDOR(S)
iNT. SICKBAY
EXT. PLANET LITHIUM PLANT
EXT. DELTA-VEGA (all locations redress of Talos IV sets)
INT. DELTA-VEGA CONTROL ROOM
INT. MAXIMUM SECURITY AREA
EXT. DELTA-VEGA (all locations redress of Talos IV sets)
INT. DELTA-VEGA CONTROL ROOM
INT. MAXIMUM SECURITY AREA
Last edited:
they may may be dual energizing coils to on-line re-amplify the DC to replace the off-line dilithium crystal energizer (DCE) seen in TAF https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Energizer. Since Mres likes the new term "synchrotron", which sounds cool
The room seen in TAF must have had other functions than re-amplifying dilithium paddles though, because the 4 of them only occupy 2 out of the 6 drawers on that machine thingy. And although an "energizer" of some sort was involved in the re-amplification process I don't think it is the same as the "main energizers" referred to in Doomsday Machine (DM) and ST2:TWOK - at the very least, those ones were not done away with by the installation of the synchotron!
The main energizers are on Deck 7, according DM. This puts them squarely in the saucer and in good position to feed into conduits in the dorsal neck, forming a solid connection (and function) between the two hulls. I think that this facility could have existed in Season One but in a larger, bulkier form in the deck below the S1 Engine Room. The synchotron upgrade simply made it more accessible.
I assume you mean blue/green areas (since yellow is just the nacelles) but that would seem to match up quite nicely with the core areas of the saucer being accessible
It's quite possible that the saucer just had basic recreation rooms while the larger and more "starship class only" facilities were located on the secondary hull. It would also help to justify so many windows in what is otherwise an engineering orientated part of the vessel!
Would there really be such a thing as a night shift though? in TNG we see 3 duty shifts a day of 8 hours each and while TOS may or may not be similar, we shouldn't expect more than a third of the crew to be asleep at any given time. However, we have seen how the Pinwheel can easily manipulate people's emotions to herd them to certain places, so I don't see this as a major problem.
If there are recreation facilities in the secondary hull (bowling alley, S3 arboretum, TAS holodeck, swimming pool, gymnasium etc) then it's more believable that a sizeable number of the crew (those who weren't on duty or asleep) were there instead.
This and the location of the alien through the side of the secondary hull do indicate that we see the Engine Room is located there. But then all that fuss about Deck 6 and Deck 7 earlier would simply be because that is where main access route to the dorsal neck is, with no other importance. Indeed, the Klingons (once having taken control of the secondary hull Engine Room) could jettison the saucer and be on their merry way!If you look at the diagram referenced, if the red spaces are open areas (because the bridge would be open) then there is a path to the engineering hull's engine room. And if the ship has only 11 decks total then deck 6 would be reachable. I prefer to think that the red spaces and lines represent environmental sections with multiple decks inside them though...
If the Engine Room in DOTD is in the secondary it means that the Klingons have divided their forces between that and Deck 6 - unless there's a substantial piece of circular corridor in the secondary hull (not this again!
). But Kirk then picks up Chekov and carries him all the way to Sickbay - is that now in the secondary hull as well? Did he ride up in the turbolift still holding the fallen Ensign? (shades of TWOK here!).All in all, it is certainly tidier to keep the action confined to the top 7 decks of the saucer, even if some of the visuals suggest otherwise. Also, the graphic is an extremely rough portrayal of the ship, which leaves its overall meaning unclear. If the red parts of the secondary hull are open areas then that crams the 400 crew into an even smaller space than before!
Maybe it represents power consumption? The Enterprise is still warping away, so it would make sense that "warp engineering" in the secondary hull is still active. Perhaps a portion of the Pinwheel is having to continuously influence the engineers down there to keep the vessel moving and override the Klingons' actions from the saucer engine room? It would be a justification for the alien travelling down there to collect its other half, then directly exiting through the secondary hull wall.
Anyway, just for fun here's a short thread on this topic from eleven years ago!
https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/day-of-the-dove-and-engineerings-location.45176/
Last edited:
Love everything you say. Adding more on a suggestion for a "night" shift, even though Kirk does not say anything specific about a shift, they do simulate night periods on the ship, so, people would probably use that time for sleep (i.e. large scale off-shift throughout the ship).
LENORE: Did you order the soft lights especially for the occasion?
KIRK: If I had ordered soft lights, I'd also have arranged for music and flowers. Unfortunately, it isn't so. On the Enterprise, we try to duplicate earth conditions of night and day as closely as possible.
KIRK: If I had ordered soft lights, I'd also have arranged for music and flowers. Unfortunately, it isn't so. On the Enterprise, we try to duplicate earth conditions of night and day as closely as possible.
Funnily enough, I had COK in the back of my mind when I typed that!
I suppose having a day/night light cycle in public areas might be good for the ol' body clock, but I wonder what impact it would have on the morale of the crew who have to work the night shifts? If you stay in the Bridge or Engine Room then the lighting would be fairly consistent, but what about maintenance personnel who work and travel throughout the ship need to tiptoe through certain dimly lit areas, which just reinforce that you're working when everyone else is sleeping? And wouldn't the cafeterias and Rec Rooms need to be open 24/7?
Man, life in Star Fleet would be tough otherwise!
However, in-universe this onboard distinction appears to exist (carried to extremes in TNG!) so I suppose you could have more than a third of the crew asleep and easy to barricade in (although not everyone goes to sleep at the same time).
Either that or Kirk really had arranged the soft lighting and was just covering his tracks
Could we look to see how submarine shifts work for a comparison?
Funnily enough, I had COK in the back of my mind when I typed that!
I suppose having a day/night light cycle in public areas might be good for the ol' body clock, but I wonder what impact it would have on the morale of the crew who have to work the night shifts? If you stay in the Bridge or Engine Room then the lighting would be fairly consistent, but what about maintenance personnel who work and travel throughout the ship need to tiptoe through certain dimly lit areas, which just reinforce that you're working when everyone else is sleeping? And wouldn't the cafeterias and Rec Rooms need to be open 24/7?
Man, life in Star Fleet would be tough otherwise!
However, in-universe this onboard distinction appears to exist (carried to extremes in TNG!) so I suppose you could have more than a third of the crew asleep and easy to barricade in (although not everyone goes to sleep at the same time).
Either that or Kirk really had arranged the soft lighting and was just covering his tracks
Could we look to see how submarine shifts work for a comparison?
A lot of statements you have made so far do seem to support of Saucer Engine Room for this episode. Supposing there was a big get-together and many of the crew were in the arboretum, others in the quarters. There is a line from TMP that there are 248 people off-duty and 11 in sickbay, and that was during a crisis. That only leaves about 150 people to have to account for, since 38 are involved in the conflict.
Yes, I meant the green areas were locked. A new idea came into me head looking at the diagram: The red area is lableled "Hull Pressure Comp' TS" The other two colors are not labeled, but yellow is space that would likely not be occupied during normal operation. Any ideas on what that text for the red are means? A google search of "what does TS stand for in engineering" suggested "Technical Specification." It did appear when they were discussing how many Starfleet crew were trapped.
It could make more logistical sense to keep the action in the first 7 decks, and depending where the cross-section cuts through, the red areas in the secondary hull might not be the engine rooms.
Beyond that, if Kang said he captured the "engineering section," he could mean "the secondary hull minus the areas where crewmen are trapped" but I don't favor that option. If the alien could control matter and mind, would it not have made the sense for it to trap 38 humans and 38 Klingons in the engineering hull, then separate the ship and leave the saucer full of unneeded humans? TOS stories had plots that usually made it an unlikely call to separate the ship since it could only be re-connected in drydock then; if this alien did not do it, there must be some reason that the complete ship was needed.
Maybe the alien was acting on reflex even though what it did was so detailed, and it was drawn to the power flow also and headed down the neck and secondary hull as it left?
Also, I found this older post dealing with a resize of the refit and original Enterprise. If the ship were scaled-up as described, would that account for fitting the 2-level engine room into the available area of Deck 6 and 7 of the original Enterprise?
Albertese, you beat me to it! However, since I went in a slightly different direction with my sketches, I'll post them anyway. They are rough estimates at best, but should suffice for now.
I have used Casimiro's & Strategic Design's drawings for the side view. I am also going with Bllsdwlf's research which shows that the TMP-E must have been at least 1,164' in order to fit the giant cargo bay as seen in the movie. As for the TOS-E...well, we shall see:
Matching the upper diameter of the saucer gives us an overall TOS-E ship length of 1198'. You can see the TMP-E "hiding" inside the original shell here:
Bits of the Engineering hull are sticking out here and there, but that is mostly because they differ in shape so much; while the TOS Engineering Hull is a tapered cyclinder, the TMP's is similar to an ovoid barrel. Weird, but I'm sure the Starfleet Engineers had good reasons for what they were doing
As for the saucer, it is mostly a good fit, and the thickness of the rims are almost identical (with the TMP-E slightly thinner). However, the angle of the rim edge is much steeper in TOS, and it would require welding extra girders onto the edge of the saucer to achieve - something I was trying to get away from with my "big Enterprise" approach.
So, what happens if we instead match the lower edge of the saucer diameters? Well, for one thing we get a TOS-E of approximately 1,235' in length (difficult to be precise because of the curves):
As well as solving the issue with the saucer rim angle, the slight protrusion from the lower Primary Hull is also now gone - the refit hull nestles entirely within the original.
The refit Engineering Hull also fits a little better into the original, but as I mentioned earlier the shapes are so different that a lot of rebuilding must have happened, regardless of the size.
In both examples I am assuming that the dorsal was completely replaced, as well as the bridge & command "teardrop" section. I have orientated the Primary Hulls to the common centre of the saucers, and the Engineering Hulls to the shuttlebay (vertical) and the start of the deflector housing (fore/aft).
But Egger's original post asked about an official length 1000' refit model, didn't it? Well, if using the examples above we were to match the upper saucer diameter then the TOS-E would be 1,029' long. If we match the lower diameter it comes out as 1,061' which coincidentally is not too far from Cary L Brown's figure!
I haven't done much on the deck placement with these examples, but a quick pass on the larger TOS-E shows enough space for ten 10' decks, plus the Bridge. The refit would have at least one deck less if it followed the same deck structure (which it should).
(Edit)-
ADDENDUM
One of the reasons I was so strongly advocating a (very) large Enterprise was because of Cary L Brown's work on applying real-world engineering techniques. It makes a lot of sense to have some bulkhead support for the nacelle pylons and, by extension, for the dorsal too. After Egger's post I went back and read Cary's thread again - it's fantastic stuff, but I'd forgotten just how intrusive the dorsal supports are. Even allowing for that, in the end Cary had to just accept what he called a "TV magic" solution for the place where the dorsal attaches to the saucer. However I have to wonder - is there any reason why this semi-magic solution can't be used again, say... on the other end of the dorsal? Or on the nacelle pylons? Kirk did ask to jettison them during The Apple so there must be something similar in place.
Anyway; thoughts on a 1235' Enterprise?
Back in the day I gave this explanation to how things worked on a Navy ship I served on. If the Enterprise is following a day/night schedule, then only the watch-standers would be up at night. And the watches would be dogged so that watches rotated (No one permanently stuck on a midwatch, for example.)Funnily enough, I had COK in the back of my mind when I typed that!
I suppose having a day/night light cycle in public areas might be good for the ol' body clock, but I wonder what impact it would have on the morale of the crew who have to work the night shifts? If you stay in the Bridge or Engine Room then the lighting would be fairly consistent, but what about maintenance personnel who work and travel throughout the ship need to tiptoe through certain dimly lit areas, which just reinforce that you're working when everyone else is sleeping? And wouldn't the cafeterias and Rec Rooms need to be open 24/7?
Man, life in Star Fleet would be tough otherwise!
However, in-universe this onboard distinction appears to exist (carried to extremes in TNG!) so I suppose you could have more than a third of the crew asleep and easy to barricade in (although not everyone goes to sleep at the same time).
Either that or Kirk really had arranged the soft lighting and was just covering his tracks
Could we look to see how submarine shifts work for a comparison?
Could the Klingons have jettisoned the saucer? It didn't appear that they had any control over the ship other than the illusion that they could suffocate Kirk & co.
Well, let's take a look back at the previous victim, Kang's ship. Kang claims that 400 of his 437 crew died stoking Kang's drive for revenge. The pinwheel alien must have had a reason to kill off Kang's crew and only trap Kirk's. Maybe it was experimenting? Or it felt that the long journey between galaxies needed fresh human combatants to switch out to fight the Klingons? Lots of potential ideas
I was thinking about the underside hull markings/hatches. The grey odd-shaped one looks like you could drop the pipe cathedral (non-FP) through it. If the pipes are located above it with the front of the pipes in front on the odd shaped grey hatch, and it sits about mid-deck in the hull, you could disconnect the rear point and let it swing down using the front as a pivot point. Of course, you need to clear out a path through the lower decks to the bottom of the hull. The pipes could lay down at an angle (45 degrees in my illustration) and still slide out through the hatch. The odd shape is a rough match to the pipe cross-section geometry. None of the other hatches are able to do it for a pipe replacement. (Or you can just open the back wall and slide it out through the shuttlebay?)
Here a rough scaled sketch of the pipe cross-section (my concept of it, but it is close no matter) over each hatch (90 degree position, standing on end). If you lay the pipe structure down on an angle (45 degrees), it elongates the hole needed to accommodate the cross-section. The grey odd-shaped hatch might do it:
Pardon my artwork. Or this is just a crazy idea. 
Here a rough scaled sketch of the pipe cross-section (my concept of it, but it is close no matter) over each hatch (90 degree position, standing on end). If you lay the pipe structure down on an angle (45 degrees), it elongates the hole needed to accommodate the cross-section. The grey odd-shaped hatch might do it:
I was thinking about the underside hull markings/hatches. The grey odd-shaped one looks like you could drop the pipe cathedral (non-FP) through it. If the pipes are located above it with the front of the pipes in front on the odd shaped grey hatch, and it sits about mid-deck in the hull, you could disconnect the rear point and let it swing down using the front as a pivot point. Of course, you need to clear out a path through the lower decks to the bottom of the hull. The pipes could lay down at an angle (45 degrees in my illustration) and still slide out through the hatch. The odd shape is a rough match to the pipe cross-section geometry. None of the other hatches are able to do it for a pipe replacement. (Or you can just open the back wall and slide it out through the shuttlebay?)
Here a rough scaled sketch of the pipe cross-section (my concept of it, but it is close no matter) over each hatch (90 degree position, standing on end). If you lay the pipe structure down on an angle (45 degrees), it elongates the hole needed to accommodate the cross-section. The grey odd-shaped hatch might do it:
Pardon my artwork. Or this is just a crazy idea.
This could make the brain jump to weird places that actually kind of make sense. Could the structure fall straight down and out, and if not, what would the scaling difference have to be to make it work?
There are similar grey covers on the top of the saucer. Could this be for another two such structures to be changed out?
Now, here's the kicker: Could some number of these structures be stacked every two/three decks in the secondary hull and all be able to fall straight out? This would leave us with a vertical warp system consisting of stacked horizontal elements, and we could put a power transfer conduit heading up to a saucer engine room(s). This would create a great tie-in with later systems and still keep the feel of how the systems seemed to work on TOS.
The only issue is, that with several engine rooms, it would be hard to tell which one we saw in a given episode. I'm suggesting that Watkins was shown in an engine room near where the system turned vertical, which would explain why he was supposedly right near the reaction but he was on a wall away from the structure.
It's COMP'TS probably meaning COMPartmenTS or COMPonenTS.
Do we know that Kirk-era Connies could detach their saucer sections?
Yes, as per "The Apple" and the Writer's Guide.
https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Saucer_separation
