"What You Leave Behind" had no stardates given as to when the Battle of Cardassia or the signing of the armistice were, but are there any theories or sources that have a rough date for either/both?
End of the War?
- Thread starter Bry_Sinclair
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A stardate is apparently on the prop treaty signed during the episode.
It's the oddest of treaties. The Dominion forces are to withdraw from the Alpha Quadrant - but apparently the only place where they can go is the Beta Quadrant, as all other non-Alpha destinations would be decades if not centuries away, impossible to reach within the time allotted! And going to Beta in 26 hours is quite a feat, too.
It smacks a bit of the "conditions" in the ultimatums of the WWII aggressors, deliberately formulated so that the victim could not agree to them even if he desperately wanted to.
Timo Saloniemi
It smacks a bit of the "conditions" in the ultimatums of the WWII aggressors, deliberately formulated so that the victim could not agree to them even if he desperately wanted to.
Timo Saloniemi
Well they can always return to the GQ via the wormhole.
The Prophets stopped the Dominion from coming into the Alpha Quadrant, there was nothing said about not allowing them to go back to the Gamma Quadrant.
Indeed, nothing was said. How could anybody know what the Prophets wanted or allowed, detested or forbade? Even The Sisko has to physically go into the wormhole in the standard case to have a meaningful conversation with the entities - and there's no indication he did any such thing in preparation for the treaty.
At the conclusion of the show, we're left wondering whether the wormhole allows travel or entry at all. In a "future" shot, we see it opening and closing, but no ships going through...
Timo Saloniemi
At the conclusion of the show, we're left wondering whether the wormhole allows travel or entry at all. In a "future" shot, we see it opening and closing, but no ships going through...
Timo Saloniemi
There's nothing in the show that indicates the prophets would prevent any travel other than Dominion fleets of warships traveling to the alpha quadrant. Odo goes to the great link, so at least some ships are allowed through both ways. The female changeling explicitly said she thought if they didn't end the fight with as high a body count as possible, the Federation would counterattack her homeworld, so she's convinced travel back is possible.
But I doubt the treaty protects AQ ships in the GQ, so very few ships would choose to go through.
But I doubt the treaty protects AQ ships in the GQ, so very few ships would choose to go through.
In my fanon, the U.S.S. Voyager is the first ship to carry out such a mission after their return from the Delta Quadrant, though this time with Erika Benteen in command.
I'm struggling to see any reason to think travel back to the GQ would be out of the question, the prophets "destroyed" one dominion fleet at Sisko's request and that was reluctantly, at a crucial point and with costs attached. It really doesn't follow that they put some standing policy in place to block all dominion travel indefinitely. Indeed as non linear beings, one could make the case that such a policy would have prevented the war from ever occurring as they would likely make no distinction between past and future fleets.
No further dominion reinforcements had arrived for a number of reasons:
1) even for the dominion gathering such a fleet would have been a costly and time consuming process, not something they could just "do", especially given the need to support their existing imperialistic policies in the GQ with a now presumably already stretched fleet
2) the feds had regained the wormhole/DS9 and thus the minefield would again be a potential issue
3) the dominion have absolutely no idea AFAIK how their fleet disappeared, Sisko may know the truth, WE know the truth, but they simply know that he had managed to implement an extremely effective defence within the wormhole and that they had simply lost an entire fleet with no survivors, not something they would be eager to repeat
No further dominion reinforcements had arrived for a number of reasons:
1) even for the dominion gathering such a fleet would have been a costly and time consuming process, not something they could just "do", especially given the need to support their existing imperialistic policies in the GQ with a now presumably already stretched fleet
2) the feds had regained the wormhole/DS9 and thus the minefield would again be a potential issue
3) the dominion have absolutely no idea AFAIK how their fleet disappeared, Sisko may know the truth, WE know the truth, but they simply know that he had managed to implement an extremely effective defence within the wormhole and that they had simply lost an entire fleet with no survivors, not something they would be eager to repeat
I think what Timo is getting at is that no one knows for sure either way, and therefore it's unfair to expect Dominion forces to leave. The only thing saving the Alpha Quadrant is the inability of reinforcements to reach the Dominion forces in Cardassian space - if travel turns out to be possible after all, what's to stop the Founders from massing a huge force and heading back through the wormhole to take their revenge? It's actually in the Federation's interests to maintain the illusion of impassability, even though they haven't a clue if the Prophets would repeat their previous act.
But that actually doesn't matter, because the Founder leader made a conscious decision to surrender unconditionally. Whatever Odo communicated to her did the trick, and we have to accept that Dominion reprisal wasn't a possibility. I'd presume they sent a test ship through under Federation supervision, and took it from there.
But that actually doesn't matter, because the Founder leader made a conscious decision to surrender unconditionally. Whatever Odo communicated to her did the trick, and we have to accept that Dominion reprisal wasn't a possibility. I'd presume they sent a test ship through under Federation supervision, and took it from there.
In any case, a 26 hour deadline is utterly unnecessary and unlikely to be realistic even in the Trek context. Even if the disciplined, wealthy and callous Dominion proper could hasten the withdrawal by destroying some of the equipment (and personnel!) in place, what about those Dominion members who belong to Alpha Quadrant species? How does one uproot in one Bajoran day those Cardassians and Breen (and possible humans etc) who don't want to turn their coats a second time and abandon their Dominion masters?
If not for this noncanon glimpse at the text on the prop, we really couldn't tell whether the Dominion surrender was unconditional or conditional - or even whether the Dominion surrendered at all. Dialogue only describes a ceasefire in the vaguest of terms, after all. A Dominion unconditional surrender in a situation where wormhole travel remains possible is the least likely scenario of all: after all, the Dominion does have an obvious condition, that of Odo being returned to the Link.
Timo Saloniemi
If not for this noncanon glimpse at the text on the prop, we really couldn't tell whether the Dominion surrender was unconditional or conditional - or even whether the Dominion surrendered at all. Dialogue only describes a ceasefire in the vaguest of terms, after all. A Dominion unconditional surrender in a situation where wormhole travel remains possible is the least likely scenario of all: after all, the Dominion does have an obvious condition, that of Odo being returned to the Link.
Timo Saloniemi
26 hours is the time to begin, not finish, the withdrawal.
Mmm. That's the Memory Alpha interpretation of the text. But the actual prop text says "All military forces of the Dominion, including Founder, Jem’Hadar, Vorta, or other allies are to withdraw from the Alpha Quadrant effective 26 hours following the general ceasefire order", which could go either way. But the word "effective" earlier in the document specifies a deadline - and why set a limit to earliest withdrawal moment?
As an aside, the fact that this almost-lorem-ipsum is repeated on the prop several times could be taken as an in-universe fact as well. After all, the document is likely to feature the same content in multiple languages - but the Universal Translators on our TV sets (or perhaps in our brains?) will render all of them into English!
Timo Saloniemi
As an aside, the fact that this almost-lorem-ipsum is repeated on the prop several times could be taken as an in-universe fact as well. After all, the document is likely to feature the same content in multiple languages - but the Universal Translators on our TV sets (or perhaps in our brains?) will render all of them into English!
Timo Saloniemi
That's not a condition, save for one Odo imposes on himself. He must cure the rest of his people from the disease that is killing them, he has no alternative. What else could he do? He also seems to want to share his experiences more fully, and teach them they don't have to fear all solids unconditionally.
One other reason for the Dominion to sue for peace and pull back. What was the impact of the loss of those two major fleets on the local politics of the Gamma Quadrant. They had vast but not unlimited resources. They depleted a lot of ships and a lot of Jen'Hadar. Most Gamma Quadrant races were not the Horta. Brainless followers of the Founders. The war with the Alpha Quadrant had to weaken the Domion domestically. It would be the perfect political irony that in their very quest to prevent the "solids" from harming them, the changelings brought about the very thing they feared most by subjugating the solids and then losing control.
Add to this that most Gamma Quadrant locals likely did not have a bad impression of the Alphas. They had encountered some traders, a few explorers. Certainly no military incursions. While Ferengi are a nuisance they are not generally an act of war. Those Gamma's that went through the wormhole typically found a welcoming if strange place and peoples. The clear point being that the Jem'Hadar, The Horta and the mysterious "Founders" we're a far more day to day threat to most Gamma Quad residents than anything in the Alpha quadrant. And then to see an incalculable amount of local resources thrown against distant people who posed no threat?
Further the Alpha conflict unmasked the hidden Founders. And to most folks in the Gamma Quadrant it would be readily clear that they are not like them. And that the Alpha folks were far more like the Gamma citizenry than their squishy overlords.
Plus what is the Founders state of mind following the return of Odo. His experiences among the Alpha solids. That they could have, and effectively did destroy the founders, only to choose not to? That it was the Founders own actions and paranoia that led to their near extermination? What will that do to their desire for Dominion? What happens to their minions, such as the clueless Horta as the Founders retreat into contemplation of all of this?
There has to be some interesting politics going on in the Dominion.
Add to this that most Gamma Quadrant locals likely did not have a bad impression of the Alphas. They had encountered some traders, a few explorers. Certainly no military incursions. While Ferengi are a nuisance they are not generally an act of war. Those Gamma's that went through the wormhole typically found a welcoming if strange place and peoples. The clear point being that the Jem'Hadar, The Horta and the mysterious "Founders" we're a far more day to day threat to most Gamma Quad residents than anything in the Alpha quadrant. And then to see an incalculable amount of local resources thrown against distant people who posed no threat?
Further the Alpha conflict unmasked the hidden Founders. And to most folks in the Gamma Quadrant it would be readily clear that they are not like them. And that the Alpha folks were far more like the Gamma citizenry than their squishy overlords.
Plus what is the Founders state of mind following the return of Odo. His experiences among the Alpha solids. That they could have, and effectively did destroy the founders, only to choose not to? That it was the Founders own actions and paranoia that led to their near extermination? What will that do to their desire for Dominion? What happens to their minions, such as the clueless Horta as the Founders retreat into contemplation of all of this?
There has to be some interesting politics going on in the Dominion.
Supposedly a flat zero. After all, despite the loss of the reinforcement fleet, the isolated beachhead in Alpha Quadrant was able to outproduce the combined forces of the Alpha Axis, and supposedly would have crushed them had the Axis not agreed with Sisko on the necessity of kicking the enemy hard when she's momentarily down.
If an expeditionary force stranded in alien space can produce that much, then nobody back in Gamma would notice a few thousand ships going missing before the losses were compensated for. Especially as the presence of those ships is not something the Founders would need to keep the Dominion together - to most of the subjects, the Jem'Hadar are as much a myth and a legend as the Founders themselves. The Dominion rules by not being there (heck, its enforcers are literally invisible!).
In practice, the resources were unlimited. Unless for some reason the expeditionary force was better equipped to gather and exploit resources than the homefront. But we never got the impression that the Jem'Hadar triumphed through pillaging.
Through what mechanism? If the locals ever heard of the war (and why would they?), all they'd learn is that it doesn't touch them in any way. There will be no relief fleets sailing from Alpha to liberate them, if that's what they should be counting on. As for the Founders, the war would solidify (please don't shoot me!) their attitudes and doctrinal choices, proving once and for all that they had it exactly right when it comes to judging Solids.
But they no doubt get similar encounters with Gamma species coming from outside the Dominion. A fat lot of good it does for them, since clearly the Dominion can deal with such corrupting elements. There's nothing special about the Alphans.
How so? We never heard of a Dominion subject who'd know about the Founders, either before, during or after the war. Nor did we hear of a means by which Alpha propaganda would be propagating through the Dominion. There's no freedom of speech there, and that's being enforced by the most powerful manner possible - by invisible watchmen who don't even need to be there to stifle all rebellion!
No doubt "Odo was one of them. Let's spank him for a while and then continue business as usual". What else could it be?
Wouldn't you want to exterminate monsters like that? "Hey, here are your kids. I didn't rape and kill and hack to pieces all of them. See what a good person I am!"
Well, no. Their actions were purely defensive. And then these invading monsters came and attacked with cowardly bioweapons, and expected us to like them for that! An inhuman(oid) enemy like that would be a great way for the Dominion to rally "national spirit" like never before, surely.
What desire? Where does desire enter the picture?
Well, perhaps with this war. After all, the Dominion is the only defense these folks have against the Alpha monsters - abominable creatures who have the gall to look like ordinary folks when they really are beasts inside.
No doubt! But those probably won't be affected by the war at all.
Timo Saloniemi
Best not to get the Horta, and Vorta mixed up. The Horta are silican based lifeform that loves to tunnel.
I never got how Female Shapeshifter had authority to sign anything on behalf of the whole Dominion, which they were not in contact with. Later, the Dominion could say "We didn't sign this."
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