End of "The Host"

[Shikarnov]

Unless you're non-heterosexual yourself, I don't think you can imagine how much it would have meant to non-heterosexuals to have Bev make the more unexpected choice, and realism has nothing to do with it (because realistically there's no reason Bev couldn't have been bisexual or otherwise open to trying to make things work with Odan).

When you're a kid growing up in a heteronormative environment where non-straights seem to be at best politely tolerated and at wost killed for something they have no control over, any positive media indication that there are other people like you and that you're not alone is immensely valuable.

Instead the episode (I'm sure not intentionally) gave off an air of "Sorry kid...oh, did you think we'd take an actual risk with one of our characters? Not on this year's Trek!"

TPTB had the chance to make a statement in the spirit of TOS, and they blew it. And over time, they blew it repeatedly.

All fair points, and I didn't intend to appear insensitive. And I apologize for that. You're right -- it would have meant a lot to quite a few viewers, and I guess sometimes I forget that we're talking about 1991 and not today when the LBGT community has achieved far greater acceptance.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Beverly was just trying to phrase it as delicately as she can so as to let Odan down easy, so to speak. Meaning, she doesn't want to hurt Odan's feelings.

Beverly doesn't like girls, so how is she supposed to tell Odan that? I think she was as sensitive as she could have been.

I mean, how would any of us feel if our partners decided to transition? (Although the analogy doesn't exactly hold, because Trills can switch from one to the other almost instantly, whereas it takes awhile for humans to do it.) Are you expected to keep up a relationship if your partner is now of a gender that you aren't into?

 

[charliefox]

The girl thing was a plot device so she could dump him/her with the audience's approval. They were betting on the general public's bigotry and it worked.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

And Beverly does have a point: How is she supposed to keep up with a romantic partner who constantly changes bodies and/or genders? Most of us couldn't handle it even once. Beverly had never met a Trill before, so she couldn't be expected to cope with something like this.

 

[DonIago]

All fair points, and I didn't intend to appear insensitive. And I apologize for that. You're right -- it would have meant a lot to quite a few viewers, and I guess sometimes I forget that we're talking about 1991 and not today when the LBGT community has achieved far greater acceptance.

You're fine!

As another poster said quite well, my issues with the episode have nothing to do with Bev's choice per se, but rather for the choice TPTB decided to have her make.

It's funny...about 4 years ago I got to meet the author of the first novel I'd ever read featuring a gay male protagonist (Mercedes Lackey, for the record). In retrospect my opinions of the character have suffered a bit, and even the author admits that he was a bit of a whiny emo teenager (is there any other kind? ), but at the time it was great to read a book that featured a character who had to deal with a lot of the same crap I was dealing with, and not always as well as I felt I dealt with it.

Maybe not so much now (YMMV), but certainly 20+ years ago, it wasn't all that easy to find LGBT characters in mainstream media (at least for me), and my feeling is that if writers chose to tackle such things, they needed to do so sensitively and responsibly.

If Bev had been established as explicitly straight before (not sure how that would have happened, but we're being hypothetical here) then her turning down female Odan would have been the expected outcome. Instead, even if things hadn't ultimately worked out between Bev and Odan (given the episodic nature of the majority of TNG, I'm sure it wouldn't have), the writers could at least have had Bev take the chance, and instead, unless I'm misremembering, the way the episode can be construed is that the minute Odan becomes a woman, Bev summarily drops them. I wish the episode could have been a two-parter, or been restructured to at least see some more thought given to Bev's decision.

But to reiterate, the fault lies with the people who made the episode, not Bev herself, though I think claiming she still loves Odan comes off akin to "I'll call you sometime!"

 

[DonIago]

If it helps, KRAD had this to say when he reviewed the episode (http://www.tor.com/2012/05/11/star-trek-the-next-generation-the-host/):

Finally, there’s the most controversial element of the show, which is the ending. Several have accused the ending of being homophobic at worst, insensitive to a non-heterosexual point of view at best. What leaves a bad taste in my mouth watching it is the way Crusher universalizes it: it’s a “human” problem, and maybe some day humans won’t be so “limited” in love. If she’d kept it to her own individual preferences, I doubt there would have been an issue. In fact, it would have made the ending stronger, with Crusher admitting to a personal, rather than human, failing, and Odan being genuinely confused by it. Instead, Crusher generalized, thus causing the character to marginalize a segment of the human population (both homosexuals and bisexuals) by omission.

 

[borgboy]

If it helps, KRAD had this to say when he reviewed the episode (http://www.tor.com/2012/05/11/star-trek-the-next-generation-the-host/):

I don't take Beverly's comments as suggesting that there was a stigma against same sex relationships. I saw the limitation just her own orientation.
As I commented earlier, I faced a similar issue many years ago when a partner was considering transitioning genders (he didn't transition and the relationship ended anyways for other reasons). I wasn't attracted to women so I knew the sexual part of our relationship wouldn't work if he transitioned (although I was completely supportive if he had wanted to transition and would've still been in his life), just as Beverly wasn't attracted to women.
I don't think the episode is groundbreaking or even had anything all that important to contribute to LGBT people, I don't see it as offensive either. I can see how the message could've been interpreted negatively but I never really saw it that way. At the very least, even if Bev can't return Odan's feelings, she still seems very sympathetic and caring, and Odan has gone from straight male to gay female (or probably both are bi), so we do see a person who can stand in for LGBT people.
I tend to grade it on a curve, as it was the 90s, and no worse than the clumsy attempt ENT did to do gay metaphor with mind melding Vulcans a decade or so later. Admittedly, I'd probably be more critical if it came out today.

 

[Vandervecken]

Unless you're non-heterosexual yourself, I don't think you can imagine how much it would have meant to non-heterosexuals to have Bev make the more unexpected choice, and realism has nothing to do with it (because realistically there's no reason Bev couldn't have been bisexual or otherwise open to trying to make things work with Odan).

No reason unless you count her completely heterosexual characterization heretofore. Either of the character changes you're describing here would have been a complete break with what we knew of her.

 

[borgboy]

It's a thing. How do you know if a character is bisexual? Just because we'd only seen Bev with men before doesn't mean that she couldn't have been bi. It's just that society teaches us to presume heterosexuality until proven otherwise.
A bi person in a same sex relationship will be perceived as gay. The same bi person in an opposite sex relationship will be presumed to be straight.
Not that I think Bev was bi, but it's all vaguely unknown until proven otherwise, and establishing absolute heterosexuality would be difficult and clumsy at best.
I also think that in Trek's future people don't even have identities around their orientation. They know who they're attracted to, and they can see who people around them get involved with, but I don't think words like gay and straight would even be used.

 

[Vandervecken]

Borgboy, she was married, had a son, is shown repeatedly to be attracted to Picard, had a romance with the male John Doe in Transfigurations, and there is this discussion with Troi from the Price, in which she both describes a mad romance she had with some "fellow" before Jack Crusher, as well as makes an "ooo aaa" set of comments showing vicarious pleasure in Troi's romance about Devinoni Ral:

(Beverly is warming up when Troi runs in)
TROI: Sorry.
CRUSHER: You're unusually limber this morning.
TROI: I'll say. Devinoni Ral. It's ridiculous, and wonderful. I feel completely out of control. Happy. Terrified. But there's nothing rational about this.
CRUSHER: Who needs rational when your toes curl up?
TROI: I'm afraid I'm going to lose myself. I can't get enough of him. Is it possible to fall in love in one day?
CRUSHER: I did.
TROI: It was like this for you and Jack?
CRUSHER: No, it was another fellow. I fell in love in a day, it lasted a week. But what a week. Then I met Jack. It took months to figure it out with him.
TROI: Well then, maybe I should slow down. Catch my breath. Not let this get out of control.
CRUSHER + TROI: No.


Then Odan comes along in season 4, and he is a he, and that is what she is attracted to. So we are shown her romantic/sexual activities, and we are shown heterosexual attraction and activities and nothing else. Seems pretty clear to me that this is her orientation. How much more empirical observation do we need to reach a conclusion? We can't conclude something is there just by its absence, but we can do so by something's presence.

 

[DonIago]

To assume someone is heterosexual just because you've never seen them date someone of the same sex would be as wrong-headed as to assume that someone must be homosexual just because you've never seen them date someone of the opposite sex.

Bisexuality is a very real thing, and while we might infer that Beverly's lack of known female partners means that she's heterosexual, we should bear in mind that an inference is all that it is.

Also, if she were to be attracted to female Odan, even if it was the first time she was attracted to a woman, it would hardly be the first time that someone realized that their sexual orientation wasn't what they had believed it to be.

Hell, every once in a while I contemplate the idea of being sexually intimate with a woman. It's generally no more than a passing thought, but it's there, and I'm not going to rule out the possibility that I might one day find myself with a female partner. Why limit myself for no reason?

Here's a novel thought: if you want to know what someone's sexual orientation is - ask them what their sexual orientation is rather than making assumptions that may indeed make you look like an ass.

 

[Vandervecken]

To assume someone is heterosexual just because you've never seen them date someone of the same sex would be as wrong-headed as to assume that someone must be homosexual just because you've never seen them date someone of the opposite sex.

I am NOT reaching a conclusion based on what I have not seen--I am reaching a conclusion based on what I have seen--her manifestly heterosexual behavior. I am assuming she is heterosexual just because I HAVE seen her participate in a great deal of heterosexual behavior, or heard her self-reporting of same. I base my conclusion on all the evidence I presented to you above. And then I go on to make it clear that in no way am I judging by absence. It is you who are imputing a characterization to Crusher based on what you cannot see--evidence of homosexual orientation. That aspect of your reasoning was exactly why I made the point of noting that I am not judging by absence (as I am not).

This is the scientific method, no different from God's existence within the scientific paradigm. There is no observable evidence that He does not exist--but there is also no observable evidence that He does. We do not then go ahead and assume He does exist because of what we cannot observe.


Sure she could suddenly change her sexual orientation as a fully formed adult with an established sexual past. How often does that happen? Pretty small percentage of people I'd hazard. Can it happen? Sure. I'd have been annoyed if it had though. Utterly out of character and extremely unlikely both.

About asking people: We can't ask Crusher and never could, so we have to reach conclusions in another fashion. By observation. Anything else is just fantasizing. That's ok, but by definition fantasy doesn't fit the facts.







----------------

If you saw a man you thought was attractive, but knew from his behavior that his orientation was hetero, would you even bother to try to get to know him with an eye to romance? Conversely, what would you think of a woman who knew your homosexual orientation propositioned you, and couldn't understand why you wouldn't "try it"? I don't see how he could not have known her orientation, the Trill are not naïve, especially older Trill.

 

[DonIago]

I would argue that you can't know someone's orientation from their behavior. All you can do is guess. And I don't make assumptions about other peoples' personal lives if I have better options.

 

[Six of Twelve]

The symbionts don't have a sex, they don't come in male or female, so they see sexual orientation in their hosts to be totally irrelevant

 

[Vandervecken]

The symbionts don't have a sex, they don't come in male or female, so they see sexual orientation in their hosts to be totally irrelevant

Later portrayal of them shows that they are well aware of sexual orientation in others and partake of it when they are in a body. Jadzia, Dax in a female body, likes men.

Odan is a diplomat who practices his trade among other species, most of which are sexually bipolar, and in fact his character in particular should have known better. Have to chalk that one up to not-very-well-thought -out writing, or, if I am charitable, love blinding him to realities.

 

[Vandervecken]

Later portrayal of the Trill shows that they are well aware of sexual orientation in others and partake of it when they are in a body. Jadzia, Dax in a female body, likes men.

Odan is a diplomat who practices his trade among other species, most of which are sexually bipolar, and in fact his character in particular should have known better. Have to chalk that one up to not-very-well-thought -out writing, or, if I am charitable, love blinding him to realities.

I would argue that you can't know someone's orientation from their behavior. All you can do is guess. And I don't make assumptions about other peoples' personal lives if I have better options.

Well, that doesn't sound like it has much connection to real, day-to-day life. EVERYONE makes judgments based on behavior; for example, if I see someone drinking a 5th of alcohol a day, I assume he or she is an alcoholic. Could I possibly be wrong? Sure. But it isn't likely that I would be, and we DO make instant probability assessments where behavior and character/one's nature are concerned, because most life experience shows us that the two are directly connected. It is "guessing" based on evidence. If you do not do this, then you are one extraordinary person.

This sort of argument reminds me of the OJ Simpson trial. Yah, 4 billion to 1 isn't good enough (the genetic evidence). Because, hey, that ONE is possible.

Let me ask you another question: if you saw a 4-5 shabbily dressed men, or men dressed in tee shirts and jeans and ripped sneakers, and they were loud, and it was late at night, and they were cursing every other word, and they were walking toward you on the sidewalk, would you consider crossing to the other side, or even just making the first turn off that street you could? Many people would. There people are judging on appearance, behavior, and also past experience and knowledge of such encounters. I know I would attempt to not have my path intersect theirs. But I don't KNOW they would do me any harm, not for a surety. I'm playing the odds, and actually I'd hazard longer odds than are derived from 4 or 5 past sexually self-describing behaviors for determination of orienation.

Also, if you mean me--making assumptions--I asked questions, I didn't assume.

 

[borgboy]

Jadzia is pretty clearly bisexual. She was willing to have a relationship with Kahn, her former wife. Worf seems to think she's bi as he was jealous of her friendship with Curzon's former lover (Vanessa Williams). We see her with male partners a lot more. Perhaps she likes both but prefers men. Perhaps she likes them equally but her other female partners weren't shown because she was on a tv show in the 90s.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Beverly not being able to handle a female host wasn't the part that bothered me.

What bothered me was that in The Host, Trill symbiosis comes off as slavery. The new host was treated like willing cattle. It wasn't a blending of host and symbiont like in DS9, Trill were gu'ald.

 

[DonIago]

Er...how is it slavery (or like the Go'auld) if the host is willing?

The Tok'ra would be a better comparison.

 

[Tenacity]

I would argue that you can't know someone's orientation from their behavior.

But you're talking about a fictional character in a entertainment production. Who Beverly is is what is on display, a composite creation of the writer, actress, and direction.

Beverly isn't bisexual unless she is shown to be so, and she wasn't.

If she were I don't think her reaction to Odan 2.0 would have been the same.