EMH

[roguephoenix]

was there any logical reason why there were no multiple copies of the doctor? or at least have him backed up (daily/weekly). i saw and episode where they jetisoned a copy of the doctor in some sort of probe/pod that someone found in the future. not sure of the details of the ep. that proves he can be backed up at least. are they saying the computer can't handle two or more doctors active at once?

i mean if it's just a matter of storage capacity, that's something they can just replicate, right? certainly the borg tech voyager has acquired could enable them some sort of high capacity storage.

as far as the mobile emitter. isn't the replicator just able to scan and replicate the item? their scans are very complex and are able to scan to atomic level. what's to prevent them from replicating the material needed to make the components of the mobile emitter. well, at least the storage capacity of it?

 

[ria 75]

I guess the Doctor is too touchy to have a twin. And two of him might be too much to take for the crew.

Why don't they replicate the mobile emitter, if only for backup? For dramatic purposes only, I figure. But use it as storage capacity... the ME is not made for long-term use or something. I know, it's a bit lame.

 

[JNG]

i mean if it's just a matter of storage capacity, that's something they can just replicate, right? certainly the borg tech voyager has acquired could enable them some sort of high capacity storage.

as far as the mobile emitter. isn't the replicator just able to scan and replicate the item? their scans are very complex and are able to scan to atomic level. what's to prevent them from replicating the material needed to make the components of the mobile emitter. well, at least the storage capacity of it?

I don't believe they can replicate certain parts of regular 24th-century computers--let alone fancy ones like the mobile emitter, which they barely understood well enough to repair.

I believe faking the "optolithic data rod," a form of secure storage that appeared on DS9, was implied to be much more complex than simply replicating it; the optical chips used by the ship's computer may be similar in this regard. Probably they have to be "grown" or something along those lines, and are classified with other non-replicable components such as warp chambers and phaser emitter crystals and lots of other things.

I can imagine single-bit replication errors having a significant effect on molecular or subatomic computers or what have you.

When the ship's main computer was stolen, the option of replicating a new one wasn't even considered as far as I remember, so it must be a more complex matter than replicating a new one.

There may exist somewhere in the Federation larger-scale (and "smarter") replicators than what can be carried on a starship, though. We've heard about "industrial" replicators. Maybe certain very important facilities use replicator tech as part of the manufacturing process for these components.

 

[ria 75]

Thanks for all that informed input, JNG. I'm impressed.



.

 

[roguephoenix]

yea truly. thanks.

though one question remains, how was it that there was a backup of the doctor discovered by aliens? doesn't that suggest they had room for at least 2?

also, won't the transporter scan be detailed enough to know the componets of the mobile emitter? i mean it does thave to put it back together after breaking it apart. >_<

 

[ria 75]

I'm not entirely sure we should question the technology that closely.
Fans are known for figuring that stuff out better than the writers themselves. If we can't, then I suppose it's a lost cause. Or we can coin technological fanon. (The "we" doesn't really include myself. I am so much more psychology than technology-oriented.)

 

[Deks]

The mobile emitter may be from 500 years into the future, but the Voyager crew was still able to figure out how it works and how to repair it.
Sterling was from the 20th century and he made it using the tech from 900 years into the future (I just don't know if he used a replicator in the ship to make it or whatnot).

Only ... there was a certain aspect of Future's End that was puzzling.
Starling wanted to make the trip to the future to get new technology
Apparently he was unable to use the time-ship itself anymore to make anything new.
I say, WHAT?
That thing alone should have a huge technical database that would allow Sterling to make new technologies for the next century or two.
The technology he made in the 21st century was still vastly primitive compared to the one in the time-ship.

To recreate a computer that would be as fast as the time-ships one would take him longer than several decades.
I say the writers made a huge mistake and Starling was an idiot.

As for the doctor ...
He did have a backup module which was effectively stolen in one raid (Living Witness episode).
When he went on his journey back to the AQ and if nothing happened to his counterpart that got home with the rest of Voyager's crew, he should be able to meet him.


I would hope the Voyager crew made another backup module after the first one was stolen.
But ... in season 6 (I think), the Doc wanted to leave the ship to pursue his singing career with another race and Janeway acted in a way that no one would be able to care for the crew apart from Paris.
It's possible his program became much more complex by that time which effectively nullified the ability to back up his program.

 

[Jeri]

I don't remember a back-up module, except for that hilarious backpack thing in the doctor's holonovel. Edit: oh, I see you're talking about his program, not mobile emitter.

 

[Timo]

The problems of physically duplicating the EMH by pressing a replicator button were nicely covered by JNG. It should be noted that in DS9 "Rivals", the replicators of the space station were capable of perfectly reproducing an intricate alien machine whose workings were beyond Federation understanding - but it could be argued that this was because the station had better replicators than the average starship does, and/or because the alien machine in question wasn't particularly difficult to replicate, merely exotic in its operating principles. The opposite could be true of the mobile emitter - relatively easy to understand, hellishly difficult to manufacture.

As for making copies of the program, it is far from said that the EMH is a "program" in the current sense of computer sciences. Indeed, it would be pretty silly to claim that 24th century computers are in any way similar to 20th century ones. One thing that is quite plausible is that the EMH program is an active entity that would "die" if its processes were to be halted - and it may be that such a program indeed has to be halted in order to be duplicated. No use in doing the copying if it results in two corpses of programs where there used to be one living program. It may simply be that Star Trek 24th century computer programs of complex, self-regulating and self-evolving nature are inherently incapable of being "copied", or "saved", ever.

Of course, that doesn't yet explain why there couldn't exist a backup of the EMH. Said backup would not need to be a copy of the original; it could just as easily be a parallel product. Essentially, we need to rationalize why the ship didn't carry multiple examples of EMH in the original wrappings in "Caretaker", so that new ones could be broken out if the first one got damaged or lost. Here, we may appeal to the possibility of shortage of storage space, combined with the belief that EMHs are noncritical hard- and software. That is, having one EMH is nice in a crisis, but having a second one is overkill, because if the crisis is severe enough to deprive you of your EMH, you are a lost case anyway. You don't equip lifeboats with lifeboats today, either!

As regards the appearance of another copy of EMH in "Living Witness", we have to remember that we have no idea when that copy was created. It might have been years or decades after "Virtuoso" which was the last time we heard the Doctor was non-copyable. "Living Witness" bears no stardates or other timestamps of credibility for the 24th century flashbacks, and the EMH there might even be the result of an adventure in the alternate timeline where the Voyager took two additional decades to get home. After all, that timeline was the "original", "natural" one until the Future Janeway interfered.

Henry Starling's antics are sufficient proof that the man was indeed a bit daft. However, I'd say it's entirely plausible and logical that he would have run out of things he could rip off the timeship. It's not that the ship would have no more secrets to offer, it's just that Starling wouldn't have known how to pry them out. He didn't really understand how that 29th century stuff worked, not even at user interface level as we see when he tries to fight Janeway's transporter beam with the future hand gadget. He only got the easy bits out of the timeship; to be able to get more, he would need to go to the future - either to steal more hardware, or then to steal some sort of a manual for the hardware he already had.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[McCoy]

Timo I always love reading your answers for things.

 

[SeanMcC]

Well it did add drama whenever the Doc was put into a hazardous situation, essentially making him 'mortal' as he was irreplaceable and the only medical officer on board.

(That makes actually letting him leave to become an opera singer all the more insane.)

 

[McCoy]

^ I know, that was insane!

 

[Turbo]

Personally, I tend to believe that losing the Doctor's backup module is the exact reason why he can't be duplicated in Virtuoso - the module was created to back up the complex EMH, and couldn't be easily replaced. In fact, I'd guess that they lost the backup module between The Swarm and Darkling. Any backup created before The Swarm would probably have succumbed to the program degredation suffered by the Doctor in that episode, while in Darkling, if Torres could simply have wiped the new personality subroutines by restoring the Doctor from a backup, the episode would've ended about halfway through.

 

[roguephoenix]

all interesting theories on why doc was never backed up. the backup though could simply be in pieces. the most important thing to backup are the memories and that shouldn't take too much memory. they could back up other "essential" subroutines in the process. since the template for the program is in the computer they don't need to backup the basic emh program, just memories and most of the "essential" subroutines. i say "essential" becasue that's debatable.

as far as having only one emh, it's not really logical to just have one. if you're in an emergency that you'd actually need one emh, it's more than likely that you've suffered a bad enough blow that you'll need more than one. expending power and resources and computer space for that just one help is a bit... too much. though he was just experimental at that point so maybe the other ships had more than one emh capable of activating. though it begs the question why the emh 2.0 didn't have more than one active. that could be due to experimental stage also.

about replicating the mobile emitter, isn't something, no matter how complicated, that the sensors can scan and break down and reassemble mean that they know what exactly is in it down to the very detail of the atomic level? if not, transporters wouldn't be able to beam the doctor with the emitter. maybe they should have made it so he couldn't be transportable. at least then it would be plausible that the emitter is so complex that even the most sophisticated scanner like the transporter's can't even do it right. being able to duplicate even just the memory storage of that thing would solve their storage capacity, not only for the doctor but for the entire ship and revolutionize the computer system of the federation and alpha quadrant.

 

[Timo]

The most important thing to backup are the memories and that shouldn't take too much memory.

Actually, that was supposed to be the most difficult part when the Doctor began to hiccup in "The Swarm". The memories indeed take a lot of memory, probably far more than the physical routines that give the Doctor his form and function. This may be because the memories are extremely complex by their very nature (human memories are, at any rate), completely different from the sort of "memory" that is stored in the primitive computers of today. Or it may be because the EMH was never expected to handle memories, and his program is highly inefficient in that task as the result.

If you're in an emergency that you'd actually need one emh..

Yet, despite the "E" in the name of the product, the Doctor probably wasn't intended to work in real emergencies. That is, the idea of the EMH wasn't that he'd step in when the live CMO ceased to be quite as live. More probably, the hologram would just become an extra pair of hands in demanding operations, or in dull repetitive work, and the sort.

After all, in case of catastrophic damage to the ship and the crew, it's more likely than not that the EMH would be the first thing to go offline anyway! He's a bloody hologram, the least reliable form of Federation technology...

Remember how upset the EMH is when he is first activated and finds out that he doesn't have any staff? The fact that he became the one and only medical practitioner aboard the ship is the real emergency here... It seems clear that he was never intended to operate like that. A situation that calls for him to take over is a disaster beyond Starfleet's wildest projections. A situation that would call for a backup for the EMH... Why even prepare for a lost case like that? How does one plan for "armageddon with extra brimstone, and hold the hope"?

If not, transporters wouldn't be able to beam the doctor with the emitter.

But transporters could be operating "blindly", moving their victims in "lumps" which aren't broken down to the finest parts but instead carry along most of the structural information needed. That is, the "phased matter stream" would not need to be scanned in particularly fine detail because it would remain a cohesive whole where each atom already knew where it stood in relation to the other atoms. I mean, we know the atoms know this, because a person "phased" by the transporter remains a cohesive whole and can move about "in the beam", think, observe, even go hug other people "in the beam"; all this we see in TNG "Realm of Fear".

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Lynx]

The mobile emitter may be from 500 years into the future, but the Voyager crew was still able to figure out how it works and how to repair it.
Sterling was from the 20th century and he made it using the tech from 900 years into the future (I just don't know if he used a replicator in the ship to make it or whatnot).

Only ... there was a certain aspect of Future's End that was puzzling.
Starling wanted to make the trip to the future to get new technology
Apparently he was unable to use the time-ship itself anymore to make anything new.
I say, WHAT?
That thing alone should have a huge technical database that would allow Sterling to make new technologies for the next century or two.
The technology he made in the 21st century was still vastly primitive compared to the one in the time-ship.

To recreate a computer that would be as fast as the time-ships one would take him longer than several decades.
I say the writers made a huge mistake and Starling was an idiot.

As for the doctor ...
He did have a backup module which was effectively stolen in one raid (Living Witness episode).
When he went on his journey back to the AQ and if nothing happened to his counterpart that got home with the rest of Voyager's crew, he should be able to meet him.


I would hope the Voyager crew made another backup module after the first one was stolen.
But ... in season 6 (I think), the Doc wanted to leave the ship to pursue his singing career with another race and Janeway acted in a way that no one would be able to care for the crew apart from Paris.
It's possible his program became much more complex by that time which effectively nullified the ability to back up his program.

What!

You call the genious behind the computer revolution an idiot!

The guys who are doing this website:
http://henrystarling.9f.com
would be furious!

As a matter of act, I see your point and agrees with most of what you have written.

 

[Renvar]

When the ship's main computer was stolen, the option of replicating a new one wasn't even considered as far as I remember, so it must be a more complex matter than replicating a new one.

OTOH, it could've just been that it would be too difficult to replicate the main computer without the resources of said main computer.

Indeed, it would be pretty silly to claim that 24th century computers are in any way similar to 20th century ones.

I dunno, there are some similarities from what I've seen. There are programs (Applications), subroutines (system files), audio, video, and text files. The file allocation setup might be different, such as using the files themselves to point to other parts of the memory instead of using folder paths as we do, but the principles are similar.

One thing that is quite plausible is that the EMH program is an active entity that would "die" if its processes were to be halted - and it may be that such a program indeed has to be halted in order to be duplicated.

Why would they die if they were halted? The doctor spent years under the ice in "Timeless", and his backup program obviously survived centuries. In both cases when he was reactivated he was suprised by the amount of time that had passed. In almost all cases of holographic storage, unless stated otherwise (such as Moriarty's box universe in "Ship in a Bottle") or due to a malfunction (Moriarty's stay in protected memory), the cognitive processes of holograms are suspended while they're offline. Is this different from what you mean when you say "halted"?

Yet, despite the "E" in the name of the product, the Doctor probably wasn't intended to work in real emergencies. That is, the idea of the EMH wasn't that he'd step in when the live CMO ceased to be quite as live. More probably, the hologram would just become an extra pair of hands in demanding operations, or in dull repetitive work, and the sort.

That would make him more of an ENH; Emergency Nurse Hologram. I think Dr. Zimmerman had more ambitious goals for his creation when he programmed all that medical knowledge and complex surgical skill into the EMH. And really, if you wanted someone to do the menial tasks, why not call up a few someones?

I think the primary reason for no multiple doctors has to do with available active memory. After all, storing a collection of programs and subroutines is one thing. Loading them into a holographic construct and getting them to work together in real time is another. The latter probably takes up a sizeable amount of CPU power. While it may have been possible to activate several Doctors at once, it could be that it would have simply been impractical from a productive standpoint to do so and have them running for the long term, as the Doctor was allowed to.

 

[roguephoenix]

But transporters could be operating "blindly", moving their victims in "lumps" which aren't broken down to the finest parts but instead carry along most of the structural information needed. That is, the "phased matter stream" would not need to be scanned in particularly fine detail because it would remain a cohesive whole where each atom already knew where it stood in relation to the other atoms. I mean, we know the atoms know this, because a person "phased" by the transporter remains a cohesive whole and can move about "in the beam", think, observe, even go hug other people "in the beam"; all this we see in TNG "Realm of Fear".

Timo Saloniemi

i think that was just one of those mistakes because the beamed object/person is broken down into the basic parts. as an example, you really can't put a building together without knowing all it's parts. if you don't, then you might not put it back together properly. hence it's a detailed scan. that scan would have had to have intricate details about the emitter. it's like having blueprints. you can take certain sections and examine them more. i think that the fact the emitter is scannable and transportable was a mistake. they should have made him unable to transport as to not damage the very microscopic intricate workings of the emitter.

also, as far as memory, it shouldn't have been that difficult as we know other holograms are able to retain memory. moriarty retained his and even had memories while in storage. yet they managed to put him in some sort of container able to live out "a lifetime of memories" as they said.

though in general, if you'd need one emh, you'd probably need more than one, because if one helpful enough, having another would probably be more beneficial.