Elogium - 3 Weeks

[Lynx]

I find it rather odd that a scifi show is viewed negatively for describing an alien way of life...

As for the "Eloqium" thing, it doesn't really sound half as bad as that. Sure, the writers let their minds wander during the creative process and only got them back afterwards, but the end result isn't difficult to rationalize back into the realm of the possible.

What Kes really says is just this:

-eloqium comes only once, usually at age 4-5
-Ocampa females can have kids only when eloqium comes
-a sticky goo and 50 hours of mating are involved in conceiving a kid, which is then carried on the back of the mother

Apart from that, there's lots of abstract discussion where Kes or Neelix wonders if having "a child" is a good idea. However, at no time is there an explicit claim that only one child could be conceived.

It would be rather natural to assume that when eloqium comes, an Ocampa female will simply strive to mate lots and lots of times and get lots and lots of kids. Each will gestate quickly, just like the Ocampa mature quickly after birth, and Kes could thus plausibly give birth to a dozen (singly, or as twins or triplets) before her eloqium runs out. It's not a one-off affair at all, but simply a fancy name for the period of fertility on the species. Human females typically have an eloqium of about 25 years, or a third or a quarter of their lifespan; Ocampa females just happen to have one that lasts a bit less...

(...Or then not. No duration is ever given for the Ocampa eloqium. Kes might have remained in the receptive state for a couple of years for all we know, matching the human standard. Her reasons for hurrying with the first mating might have been complex and not completely rational.)

Kes, of course, would have little or no interest in using up her full child-producing potential. One kid would be plenty for her, as the survival of her species would be completely off her back (rather literally!).

Timo Saloniemi

Actually some plausible explanations here, especially the theory that the Ocampa can have more than one child, probably twins, triplets or more. There are some hints for that in certain episodes.

In "Dreadnought", Kes tells The Doctor that she had an uncle named Elrem. So one of her parents must have had a brother!

In "Before And After, Kes's father Benaren says something about Kes being her "favorite daughter". So they had more daughters than Kes!

Otherwise I din't find it negative to describe alien ways of life. It's just some silly things with the Ocampa mentioned here which in my opinion screws up the species.

 

[Timo]

...I prefer to think that it is common the Ocampa to have 2 or 3 or more babies at during the Elogium.

One would actually think that the gestation of the child in an external sac on the back of the mother would be an excellent way to carry out multiple pregnancies in quick succession. Recovery for the next one would be quicker than when you have to refurbish your interiors - just grow a new sac. Childbirth would probably also be less painful for well-grown, large-cranium infants than if conducted through the hip.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Guy Gardener]

How many wombs did she have?

Maybe that's why they needed fifty hours of nookie to get the sperm into all 50 wombs?

Maybe the baby just came out of her back because that's where Tom's sperm finally found what it was looking for after several wrong turns?

 

[hawk200]

I really liked Elogium.It showed what a versatite actor that J/L was.she was serious she was funny in that epidode.
I know that there serious dtscrepancies and flaws in the writing but I chose not to notice them and just to enjoy the program.
It is one of my favorites in the series.

H200

 

[Lynx]

I really liked Elogium.It showed what a versatite actor that J/L was.she was serious she was funny in that epidode.
I know that there serious dtscrepancies and flaws in the writing but I chose not to notice them and just to enjoy the program.
It is one of my favorites in the series.

H200

Probably the best way to watch it.

I agree that Jennifer's acting is superb in this episode.

 

[Unicron]

And yes, Harry Kim marrying Kes and Tom's daughter in the alternate future was very creepy. Kes's daughter would have growm up thinking of him as an uncle. That Harry would get involved with a woman that he knew as a baby so recently is very disturbing.

You can say that again! I thought the same thing! Just another reason why Harry is nothing more than a desperate, pathetic, momma's boy and creep.

Maybe Harry liked old comic books?

I agree with both Lynx and Timo. The notion that elogium only happens once in the entire lifetime is sloppy writing, but I do think Timo's suggestions are good.

 

[tomalak301]

I took the advise of this thread and watched Elogium again. One thing I was thinking about was what someone else said up thread, if birth happens through the back, wouldn't that be easier to churn out children. As much as I don't like the idea of Elogium happening once, I don't see why it would cut the population in half.

As for the episode, there's a lot to like in it. It's not the greatest, but the issues of raising a family on Voyager is taken seriously and was my favorite bits of the show, as well as Neelix and Tuvok talking about parenting. It's a shame that in the entire 7 years, we only saw one child born for the ship (Technically she was born on that planet) and that was Naomi.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Naomi died dude.

Replaced by a quantum duplicate. Or she's real and everyone else But Kim died. Take your pick, but Sam was nursing someone else's child on her tit.

100 people. 50 men and 50 woman. takes two people to make a baby. That's 50 babies. The next generation is 50 strong and it still takes 2 people to make a baby so the next generation is 25 strong but it still takes 2 people to make a baby... the Next generation is 12 and a 1/2 strong and it still takes two people to make a baby...

I suppose that's taking monogomy for granted, and an even sampling of males to females, and that everyone always had a baby, and that there wouldn't be people from different generations doing it to make babies and that sometimes/often there were not twins and triplets, but it's not sloppy writing, it's sloppy thinking if no one wasn't going to mention that the species was dying out and their population was dwindling down to zero.

 

[tomalak301]

I always get episodes confused. She was a young baby in Basics I, but born in Deadlock. What else you said though, well, we'll never know.

 

[Captain Proton]

I can't get passed the Uncles and favorite child thing...It would seem though if Ocampa can expand their lifetime to 20 years they could probably work around the 1 child problem...That would be like humans expanding their lifetime to 200 years. This brings up another question, why would they want to increase their lifespan? Humans are content with 80-100 years why would they feel the need to live longer?

 

[Guy Gardener]

Content my ass. I doubt I am going to get 80 years and i want twice as much as that. BRING ON IMMORTALITY!

Considering mcCoy is still doddering around at 150, the humans of the 24th century would be agog at how cruel an 80 year life span would be for another human. They'd be like a cripple or something to pity for being pathetically attributed? For a human judgin another human that is. Other species have their own standards.

Think of the Swarm. The doctor had too much information in his brain and it exploded and wound down to a point it wanted to die... With the Ocampans ability to assimilate masses of information from virtually the ether and their recall... Odds are that doubling their life span would drive them insane before too long.

 

[Timo]

Then again, perhaps that's a necessary step in becoming a noncorporeal demigod?

One might blame the Caretaker for artificially shortening the Ocampa lives, rather than Suspiria lengthening them. Perhaps at 20, the Ocampa finally get through puberty and turn into shiny lights, but the Caretaker thought this was too painful to watch and began adjusting his flock into a perma-preteen format?

If you could have immortality and godhood, might you not wish to self-evolve yourself sooner rather than later? Might not the short lifespans of the Ocampa be a deliberate choice for getting through the annoying corporeal part ASAP?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Captain Proton]

Content my ass. I doubt I am going to get 80 years and i want twice as much as that. BRING ON IMMORTALITY!

Considering mcCoy is still doddering around at 150, the humans of the 24th century would be agog at how cruel an 80 year life span would be for another human.

well there are humans that live to be 120, there was some French girl recently talking about selling paint to a dirty Van Gogh back in the day...But the point is for us IRL its not a priority extending natural life, beyond what ridding disease would extend life.

Really though would you want to be 80 years old for 100 years? Thats a lot of depends!