Ellison is pissed

[trevanian]

Yeah,, but Ellison has issues with Paramount from the 70s as well. He and Ben Bova did a robot cop story called BRILLO (metal fuzz) and then dealt with the studio over a possible project, then presto!, ABC and Paramount coughed up a really bad take -- actually two takes, I think, one with Ernest Borgnine -- on the same idea. Took a few years, but Bova and Ellison won a judgement of something like $300 or $400 grand from Paramount (though HE said he'd have settled for a Sunset Blvd billboard with Paramount saying, 'we stole from this man' on it. So it isn't just Buchwald that Par took from.

 

[GLS_3rd]

T'Pol in Enterprise was originally supposed to be be a younger version of T'Pau from TOS. The producers couldn't come to an agreement or just didn't want to pay at all to use the character and T'Pau became T'Pol. Ellison may or may not be a rather unpleasant person but he is due payment for use of his work.

 

[Steve Roby]

trevanian said:
He and Ben Bova did a robot cop story called BRILLO (metal fuzz) and then dealt with the studio over a possible project, then presto!, ABC and Paramount coughed up a really bad take -- actually two takes, I think, one with Ernest Borgnine -- on the same idea.

Future Cop and Holmes and Yoyo, no?

 

[trevanian]

Steve Roby said:

trevanian said:
He and Ben Bova did a robot cop story called BRILLO (metal fuzz) and then dealt with the studio over a possible project, then presto!, ABC and Paramount coughed up a really bad take -- actually two takes, I think, one with Ernest Borgnine -- on the same idea.

Future Cop and Holmes and Yoyo, no?

I had blanked the titles from memory, but yeah, now that you remind me ... I think maybe Future Cop actually had a decent pilot, but not much else ... I'm not sure that HOLMES & YOYO was the other part of the same suit, or if it related to a different slightly recast version of Future Cop.

 

[Sci]

GLS_3rd said:
T'Pol in Enterprise was originally supposed to be be a younger version of T'Pau from TOS. The producers couldn't come to an agreement or just didn't want to pay at all to use the character and T'Pau became T'Pol. Ellison may or may not be a rather unpleasant person but he is due payment for use of his work.

To be fair, the difference is that CBS (at the time, Paramount) actually owns the character of T'Pau. Though they owe the estate of Theodore Sturgeon royalties if they use the character, the Sturgeon estate does not own the character, nor do they have creative control over it, nor can they use the T'Pau character themselves, nor does CBS have to pay them royalties or gain their permission if T'Pau is featured in a novel or other derivative work.

By comparison, Ellison is claiming that he retains legal ownership of the Guardian and Edith Keeler -- of all elements of "The City on the Edge of Forever" that are original to that episode -- and that, therefore, CBS/Paramount must request his permission to use those elements, that he has creative control over those elements on film or in a derivative work, and that he may use those elements outside of Star Trek -- and all this on top of his being owed, of course, royalties. CBS/Paramount, on the other hand, probably contends that they own the characters even if Ellison is owed royalties over the characters' usage.

Either way, he's owed money. The question is whether he also owns the characters or not.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Sci said:
Either way, he's owed money. The question is whether he also owns the characters or not.

The first question is why he keeps insisting he should have been asked first. Because Ellison reckons he was at peace with "Yesteryear" (TAS), "Yesterday's Son", "Time for Yesterday" and "Imzadi", and required no royalty, because the authors asked permission of him first. He went after Pocket for "Crucible: McCoy" because noone told him it was being written.

Surely the TV contract from the 60s doesn't specify "ask Harlan first".

JJ's script is top secret. I can see why Paramount wouldn't want to reveal all to Harlan too early.

 

[indranee]

it's the ethics of it. asked nicely, he'd have no problems with something. sure, it's sourced in the bitterness of how he felt and probably still feels about Roddenberry's Trek, but it's how the situation is dealt with.

IMO, if this is true, Abrams should have somehow let Ellison know where he was going with the script.

 

[Therin of Andor]

indranee said:
it's the ethics of it. asked nicely, he'd have no problems with something.

Since when have movie studios ever followed ethics in the pursuit of $$$$? Contractual obligations are where arbitration rulings are made, as even Harlan is aware. Secrey over the script is important and will affect box office. Exposing all to Harlan won't increase revenue, but it the film does use "City" elements, then he knows he will get paid.

Imagine this scenario. JJ wants the script to be top secret but approaches Harlan about using elements from "City" for ST. He'd also want Harlan to sign a secrey agreement. Harlan, still pissed with Pocket Books, CBS and Paramount over the "Crucible" trilogy of novels says, "Pay me $$$$ or I blab to the Internet." Better to stay quiet.

it's sourced in the bitterness of how he felt and probably still feels about Roddenberry's Trek, but it's how the situation is dealt with.

You know what? I met Harlan at a Sydney science fiction convention in 1983. We were prepared to hate his guts, having heard all the old stories, but bravely wore our ST uniforms, expecting him to at least belittle us and our favourite show. Instead he spoke admirably about Star Trek, and awarded a friend and me (as Andorians) "Best Couple" in the costme parade. Maybe he was just in a good mood. (He did swear a lot, though.)

He was all vitriole about Glenn Larson instead that weekend.

IMO, if this is true, Abrams should have somehow let Ellison know where he was going with the script.

We still have no idea if "City" elements really do appear in the movie. But I don't blame JJ for attempting to maintain secrecy on the script. Supposedly, not even the cast has seen the whole script.

 

[Korczynski]

Just because Mr Ellison once dubbed him "Glenn Larceny" it's no reason to think they don't get along
My first reaction from reading the OP title was "News at 11". Duh.

The Guardian of Forever is one of the most fascinating concepts introduced in Trek and it's awesome that HE has allowed other writers to use his intellectual property in Trek stories. And he deserves to get paid if Paramount are going to make use of it in STXI. As I'm sure he will if they do.

Just ask Leonard Nimoy how quickly Paramount can settle legal matters once they want something in a movie. Sure he had to wait years but once they loved him, here's the cheque.

 

[trevanian]

Therin of Andor said:
[ We still have no idea if "City" elements really do appear in the movie. But I don't blame JJ for attempting to maintain secrecy on the script. Supposedly, not even the cast has seen the whole script.

I just finished doing an article on the Abrams-produced monster-in-NewYork-film (so secretive it still is w/o an official title as of last week, though EDITADDON I guess it may end up being called CLOVERFIELD) and even on that insanely top secret show, everybody working the film seems to have seen the full script. They couldn't TALK about it to any degree, but they saw it.

Given that the secrecy aspect is a HUGE part of what makes 1-18-08 (the day it comes out) a compelling movie trailer experience, I doubt TREK will be any more secretive. It'll pay to GENERATE attention to this reboot/rethink/rewash.

Plus, from a whole different perspective on secrecy and leaks ... there's a grand tradition of trek secrets surfacing way before release, either through design or deceit or stupidity.

NEW WEST blew all the vger/voyager stuff in TMP half-a-year prior to its release (probably from a disgrunted Abel employee), and everybody knows about the leaks that plagued Bennett -- which ultimately probably helped the box office and interest in TWOK. Paramount showing the destroyed enterprise in SFS's trailer certainly wasn't part of Bennett's intent either (directly opposite of it in fact), but I don't know that anybody was chased off by seeing it there.

So keeping a potentially litigious aspect secret for this new movie seems less spoiler-motivated and more toward the 'avoidiing injunctions' aspect (though even that can help a movie -- I think THE CHOIRBOYS film benefitted a little bit dollarswise from novelist Joe Wambaugh's suit against the filmmakers for distorting his story.)

 

[Therin of Andor]

trevanian said:
I doubt TREK will be any more secretive.

Sure, but actor quotes so far include the statement that they haven't yet seen a full script. Or, at least, they said that to keep reporters at bay.

No matter. It seems that security is much tighter than "ST V" - "Nemesis", and that's a good thing.

 

[GLS_3rd]

Sci said:

GLS_3rd said:
T'Pol in Enterprise was originally supposed to be be a younger version of T'Pau from TOS. The producers couldn't come to an agreement or just didn't want to pay at all to use the character and T'Pau became T'Pol. Ellison may or may not be a rather unpleasant person but he is due payment for use of his work.

To be fair, the difference is that CBS (at the time, Paramount) actually owns the character of T'Pau. Though they owe the estate of Theodore Sturgeon royalties if they use the character, the Sturgeon estate does not own the character, nor do they have creative control over it, nor can they use the T'Pau character themselves, nor does CBS have to pay them royalties or gain their permission if T'Pau is featured in a novel or other derivative work.

By comparison, Ellison is claiming that he retains legal ownership of the Guardian and Edith Keeler -- of all elements of "The City on the Edge of Forever" that are original to that episode -- and that, therefore, CBS/Paramount must request his permission to use those elements, that he has creative control over those elements on film or in a derivative work, and that he may use those elements outside of Star Trek -- and all this on top of his being owed, of course, royalties. CBS/Paramount, on the other hand, probably contends that they own the characters even if Ellison is owed royalties over the characters' usage.

Either way, he's owed money. The question is whether he also owns the characters or not.

Well either way the reason that T'Pol materialized instead of T'Pau seemed to be for something other that creative reasons.

As for Ellisons seeming anger at all this; would seem to me to be a matter of professional respect to be informed of the use of his creations from his point of view. I would agree he couldn't go placing those characters in other media without the permission of CBS or whoever but in his mind he would still like to know, even if there is no real legal basis for him being asked ahead of time. His real and probably only beef should be that he get paid for every use of his creations.

He may personally not like how the characters are used but all he can do about it is rant.Which is probably why JJ didn't tell him ahead of time, we ould have know the suppossed plot long ago.

--Quick side bar-- I thought that in one of the novels that the GoF is where the guys who interview Sisko at the end of T&T were based.

 

[indranee]

Therin of Andor said:

indranee said:
it's the ethics of it. asked nicely, he'd have no problems with something.

Since when have movie studios ever followed ethics in the pursuit of $$$$? Contractual obligations are where arbitration rulings are made, as even Harlan is aware. Secrey over the script is important and will affect box office. Exposing all to Harlan won't increase revenue, but it the film does use "City" elements, then he knows he will get paid.

Imagine this scenario. JJ wants the script to be top secret but approaches Harlan about using elements from "City" for ST. He'd also want Harlan to sign a secrey agreement. Harlan, still pissed with Pocket Books, CBS and Paramount over the "Crucible" trilogy of novels says, "Pay me $$$$ or I blab to the Internet." Better to stay quiet.

it's sourced in the bitterness of how he felt and probably still feels about Roddenberry's Trek, but it's how the situation is dealt with.

You know what? I met Harlan at a Sydney science fiction convention in 1983. We were prepared to hate his guts, having heard all the old stories, but bravely wore our ST uniforms, expecting him to at least belittle us and our favourite show. Instead he spoke admirably about Star Trek, and awarded a friend and me (as Andorians) "Best Couple" in the costme parade. Maybe he was just in a good mood. (He did swear a lot, though.)

He was all vitriole about Glenn Larson instead that weekend.

IMO, if this is true, Abrams should have somehow let Ellison know where he was going with the script.

We still have no idea if "City" elements really do appear in the movie. But I don't blame JJ for attempting to maintain secrecy on the script. Supposedly, not even the cast has seen the whole script.

I'm too lazy to cut-paste your post, plus I'm doing this from work so time is of the essence so I'm going to make just a few points in relation to yours:

1) Studio-secrecy is a fact of the industry. still doesn't make it ethical or correct. one would hope that, as a fellow writer, JJ Abrams has it in him to stick up for his "folk". but, of course, Harlan's pissed so many people off over the years, there's very little good will left.

2) sure, Harlan can be an asshole AND he can be incredibly nice. it all depends on where the sun rises for him each day. it's what makes him Harlan. we all know that. that event you described doesn't prove that he harbors no "hard feelings". he does, and we all know it (and with good reason, I might add). everything he says and has said attests to that.

2) Quinto, from what I hear, has seen the full script. So has Nimoy. So, in all probability, has Greenwood. there's no real reason (other than that much-avowed studio-secrecy thingie) why -- IF this script has anything to do with Harlan's original -- he should not have been tipped off by Abrams or Orci, etc., instead of PAD).

 

[Therin of Andor]

indranee said:
Studio-secrecy is a fact of the industry. still doesn't make it ethical or correct. one would hope that, as a fellow writer, JJ Abrams has it in him to stick up for his "folk".

But the three authors who have used Harlan's devices/characters, and did ask him for "permission" first, all had a prior friendship with Harlan. David R George III, as I understand it, didn't ask Harlan because he doesn't know him, and he never dreamed he had to ask him. He also didn't ask any of the other TOS or TAS writers whose characters appeared in "Crucible". (There were at least 50, I reckon.) That stuff, if it's necessary (and it's not, for the tie-ins), is handled by CBS lawyers and clearance officers, and/or Pocket's editors. And since previous editors had commissioned CotEoF tie-ins/sequels without any ripples from Ellison, why would the new editors assume "Crucible" would be any different?

We don't know that JJ has any links to Harlan. And if the studio approved JJ's ideas, why would he think he'd need to rush to a total stranger before he set a team of writers on a script?

Quinto, from what I hear, has seen the full script. So has Nimoy. So, in all probability, has Greenwood. there's no real reason (other than that much-avowed studio-secrecy thingie) why -- IF this script has anything to do with Harlan's original -- he should not have been tipped off by Abrams or Orci, etc., instead of PAD).

Quinto's read it now, but the script was already (or almost) finished before Quinto was cast. To inform Harlan, and supposedly negotiate any complaints he harboured, they'd have had to have told him ages ago. But, no doubt, Paramount didn't have to ask. So it didn't.

And why do people keep dragging PAD into this? Like he's secretly been shown the script or something. As far as I know, all PAD did was say to a friend and colleague, "Hey, they reckon the new ST film is using the Guardian." He was simply passing on a rumour he'd heard, not revealing all. If PAD hadn't mentioned the rumour someone else would have.

And you know what? When it was announced that ST IV was going to involve time travel, rumours were rampant in fandom that the Guardian would be reproduced as a key set! My fan club newsletter even published the rumour at the time, based on a phone call one of our members had with a guy who was a Paramount security guard (who reckoned he'd seen them building the set). Where was Harlan then?

 

[trevanian]

Therin of Andor said:
And you know what? When it was announced that ST IV was going to involve time travel, rumours were rampant in fandom that the Guardian would be reproduced as a key set! My fan club newsletter even published the rumour at the time, based on a phone call one of our members had with a guy who was a Paramount security guard (who reckoned he'd seen them building the set). Where was Harlan then?

He was probably secure in knowing the guardian had nothing to do with TVH, since he was one of the very first writers approached to do the script for the movie (Bennett turned down his 500 grand fee and that ended it really fast.)
Plus, he was friends Koenig and others and knew what was going on with the movie (maybe not the particulars of what got done by Meers and Krikes vs Meyer/Bennett, but the plot generalities anyway.)

The one that would have been interesting to see reactionwise was the Tracy Torme TNG story that would have used the Guardian and had Spock in it ... I think he is sent back to ancient Vulcan, he or Sarek -- I believe he 'became' Surak in it, much as Sisko became that Bell guy in the superlative DS9 2parter set in century21.

 

[Plum]

Therin of Andor said:
And you know what? When it was announced that ST IV was going to involve time travel, rumours were rampant in fandom that the Guardian would be reproduced as a key set! My fan club newsletter even published the rumour at the time, based on a phone call one of our members had with a guy who was a Paramount security guard (who reckoned he'd seen them building the set). Where was Harlan then?

... and, was this ever mentioned in a Starlog article back then? Rings a bell.

 

[Therin of Andor]

No, but I've mentioned it on TrekBBS a few times. We thought we'd been given "an exclusive".

 

[Kurgan]

Ellison will get over it.Paramount will give him some hush money on the qt and everything will be alright with the world yet again.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

trevanian said:
The one that would have been interesting to see reactionwise was the Tracy Torme TNG story that would have used the Guardian and had Spock in it ... I think he is sent back to ancient Vulcan, he or Sarek -- I believe he 'became' Surak in it, much as Sisko became that Bell guy in the superlative DS9 2parter set in century21.

You've conflated "Return to Tomorrow" with the story that ultimately became "Yesterday's Enterprise."

Torme was going to write the second season opener with movie-era Spock, TNG-era Spock, and the Guardian, except that the 1988 WGA strike scuppered that.

"Yesterday's Enterprise" grew out of a different story -- the Sarek becomes Surak story.

 

[Green Shirt]

GLS_3rd said:
T'Pol in Enterprise was originally supposed to be be a younger version of T'Pau from TOS. The producers couldn't come to an agreement or just didn't want to pay at all to use the character and T'Pau became T'Pol. Ellison may or may not be a rather unpleasant person but he is due payment for use of his work.

I'm trying to wrap my brain around the idea that Ellison is owed money for the use of his work so many years after he was paid for his story. If Ellison sold a bicycle to Desilu/Paramount/Star Trek in 1967, why would he be entitled to payment every time the owner took the bike out of the garage for a spin? Guess its the difference between "intellectual property" and "physical goods".