Eddington's vitriolic assessment of The Federation

[at Quark's]

^Pretty much this. The treaty was imperfect (and I don't think anyone felt otherwise, but that's how compromise works), and it definitely appeared that at least aspects of the Cardassian government weren't honoring it in good-faith, but it was still preferable to no treaty at all, and for the Federation colonists to respond in equally bad faith just further destabilized the entire situation. Diplomatic options may or may not have ultimately proven successful at resolving matters, but the Maquis rejected even making the attempt in favor of things like blowing up freighters (while they were perilously close to Federation-administered Bajoran space stations).

There's still the problem that the treaty would have cost the members of the (to-be) Maquis worlds much more than the rest of the Federation. They would have been forced to leave their home worlds they worked for years on (or live under Cardassian rule). I still would like to know if any Federation compensation program would have been in place to sweeten the deal for those affected - unfortunately we never learn of that AFAIK. (And I don't just mean 'here's a new world you can settle on' - it's still, say, 30 years of hard work down the drain and the loss of what they called 'home').

 

[Farscape One]

That's one of the biggest reasons why I was initially very pro-Maquis.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

There's still the problem that the treaty would have cost the members of the (to-be) Maquis worlds much more than the rest of the Federation. They would have been forced to leave their home worlds they worked for years on (or live under Cardassian rule). I still would like to know if any Federation compensation program would have been in place to sweeten the deal for those affected - unfortunately we never learn of that AFAIK. (And I don't just mean 'here's a new world you can settle on' - it's still, say, 30 years of hard work down the drain and the loss of what they called 'home').

I'm sure Federation technology is sufficient to recreate those colonists' homes, in precise detail, on any world they choose to settle on.

So all of their work would not be for nothing - those homes would continue to exist, exactly as before, just on different worlds.

 

[DonIago]

If someone tells me that I'll be a contributing factor to a war that could kill many people if I don't move to a home that's equal to or better than the one I have, and perhaps with the option of recreating my former home in a holodeck if I feel the need to? I move.

 

[Greatn]

Eddington”s a tool a loser and turned his back on those that gave him everything in a civilization of replicators stfu

 

[Ragitsu]

Chakotay did the honorable method... he officially resigned before going to the Maquis.

I am finding (more accurately: remembering) additional reasons to like Chakotay.

 

[at Quark's]

Now I wonder how Janeway would have treated Eddington and his crew, had he be the one transported to the DQ instead of Chakotay. More like in Equinox, perhaps?

 

[Sci]

I forgot to mention a big one... stealing the Defiant and blowing up Cardassians in "DEFIANT". That occured less than a year after the Maquis group began... probably around 6 months or so.

Let's talk about that operation. In the course of that operation, it became clear to the Cardassians that the Federation was not attacking them -- so it did not damage the UFP's relations with the Cardassians. That operation exposed the secret Obsidian Order ship buildup and nearly exposed the attempted Obsidian Order/Tal Shiar invasion of the Dominion -- a disastrous invasion that started a line of dominoes leading to the Federation-Klingon War of 2372-2373 and then to Cardassia joining the Dominion. Had the Maquis succeeded in exposing the Obsidian Order/Tal Shiar invasion attempt, the Federation would have been a lot better off. Let's also talk about the fact that the Defiant was returned without damage to the Federation. And let's talk about the fact that the Maquis commander of that operation willingly turned himself over to the Cardassians, once again preserving Federation-Cardassian relations.

Sorry, but that operation was absolutely not enough to justify the Federation's anti-Maquis campaign.

^^When the treaty was established, some Cardassian and Federation planets were traded between the two powers.

The Maquis were almost certainly made up of both Federation citizens and people on formerly-Federation worlds who had agreed to be ruled by the Cardassian Union rather than resettling.

This is never canonically established.

From Memory Alpha:

Concerning Federation policy with regard to the Maquis, Ronald D. Moore explained:

"All Human colonists were supposed to evacuate certain worlds in the DMZ as part of the treaty between the [Federation] and the Cardassians. Some colonists not only elected to remain behind, but also began a terrorist campaign against the Cardassians, which then prompted retaliatory strikes from Cardassia which in turn threatened to ignite a new war between Cardassia and the [Federation]. The Cardassian strikes were hitting innocent Human settlements in addition to Maquis military camps, which forced the Fed to intercede. While not all the Maquis were living in Cardassian space, (some were in the DMZ and some were even on Federation worlds) the Cardassians certainly blamed the [Federation] for the Maquis raids just as the Feds blamed the Cardassian government for attacks perpetrated by Cardassian colonists.

"That's the official rationale for the Fed campaign against the Maquis, but Eddington's statement that the real problem is that the Maquis have left the Federation and that no one leaves the Federation, has more than a kernel of truth in it. There's a sense of betrayal associated with the Maquis in the minds of the people in the Federation, regardless of whether that's an irrational feeling or not. Add to that sense of betrayal the fact that the Maquis have harassed and attacked several Federation targets over the years and you begin to see why the Feds refuse to turn a blind eye to this group." (AOL chat, 1997)

And right there, Moore himself makes it clear that the Federation's real motivation is Federation nationalism.

It's also another reason why the Maquis were targeted... they had senior officers who used their positions to steal from Starfleet.

It would be like an Air Force colonel stealing equipment to give to a foreign power. You think something like that should be taken lightly or just let go?

No. But that also doesn't justify a systematic campaign against the Maquis as a whole.

 

[Farscape One]

Let's talk about that operation. In the course of that operation, it became clear to the Cardassians that the Federation was not attacking them -- so it did not damage the UFP's relations with the Cardassians. That operation exposed the secret Obsidian Order ship buildup and nearly exposed the attempted Obsidian Order/Tal Shiar invasion of the Dominion -- a disastrous invasion that started a line of dominoes leading to the Federation-Klingon War of 2372-2373 and then to Cardassia joining the Dominion. Had the Maquis succeeded in exposing the Obsidian Order/Tal Shiar invasion attempt, the Federation would have been a lot better off. Let's also talk about the fact that the Defiant was returned without damage to the Federation. And let's talk about the fact that the Maquis commander of that operation willingly turned himself over to the Cardassians, once again preserving Federation-Cardassian relations.

Sorry, but that operation was absolutely not enough to justify the Federation's anti-Maquis campaign.



This is never canonically established.



And right there, Moore himself makes it clear that the Federation's real motivation is Federation nationalism.



No. But that also doesn't justify a systematic campaign against the Maquis as a whole.

What the Maquis did in "DEFIANT", stealing said ship, is only the first major thing they did.

And they did it again, with 12... I'll say again... twelve industrial replicators. Which were obviously good enough to help get multiple systems and planets back on their feet. They weren't just a box of nails they took.

And again, stealing from Bolian freighters... material that was used to create biological weapons. You know, things used to kill people.

And the attacks on Starfleet ships... namely the Defiant and Maliche. We have no idea how many crew were injured and killed in those attacks. Clearly some, as Captain Saunders looked haggard when he talked to Sisko.

So a quick recap... we have theft of Starfleet ships (whether returned or not), theft of massive devices that were to be used on a multiple system scale, theft of cargo that was used to create biological weapons, attacking Starfleet ships, and almost certainly onjuring and killing Starfleet crew? (And by the way, this is only what we have seen onscreen. Who knows what else they did offscreen.)

And you seriously think Starfleet didn't have a right to go after them?

 

[Takeru]

No. But that also doesn't justify a systematic campaign against the Maquis as a whole.

Of course it does, the Maquis was a criminal organization who threatened starfleet and federation security, they had every right to actively fight and eliminate the maquis.

 

[Farscape One]

Of course it does, the Maquis was a criminal organization who threatened starfleet and federation security, they had every right to actively fight and eliminate the maquis.

Exactly. Would like this post 100 times if I could.

 

[Sci]

What the Maquis did in "DEFIANT", stealing said ship, is only the first major thing they did.

And they did it again, with 12... I'll say again... twelve industrial replicators. Which were obviously good enough to help get multiple systems and planets back on their feet. They weren't just a box of nails they took.

I absolutely do not care. The Federation sold them out to the Central Command; I have no problem with them stealing Federation industrial replicators.

And again, stealing from Bolian freighters... material that was used to create biological weapons. You know, things used to kill people.

Seems to me most such materials can also be used to create medical treatments. Did we ever actually hear of the Maquis using biological weapons?

And the attacks on Starfleet ships... namely the Defiant and Maliche

Happened well after Starfleet had already begun a systematic campaign against the Maquis. You can't retroactively justify a campaign by citing the retaliation taken against that campaign.

And you seriously think Starfleet didn't have a right to go after them?

Not necessarily, but I am arguing that none of that is the real reason Starfleet went after them so vigorously. Starfleet ships have been attacked and its material stolen plenty of times without starting a systematic campaign in response.

I am also, however, arguing that the Maquis are at least somewhat justified in their actions.

Of course it does, the Maquis was a criminal organization who threatened starfleet and federation security,

No, they were separatist freedom fighters whose actions might have caused the Federation inconvenience but which did not realistically threaten Federation security.

 

[Farscape One]

I absolutely do not care. The Federation sold them out to the Central Command; I have no problem with them stealing Federation industrial replicators.



Seems to me most such materials can also be used to create medical treatments. Did we ever actually hear of the Maquis using biological weapons?



Happened well after Starfleet had already begun a systematic campaign against the Maquis. You can't retroactively justify a campaign by citing the retaliation taken against that campaign.



Not necessarily, but I am arguing that none of that is the real reason Starfleet went after them so vigorously. Starfleet ships have been attacked and its material stolen plenty of times without starting a systematic campaign in response.

I am also, however, arguing that the Maquis are at least somewhat justified in their actions.



No, they were separatist freedom fighters whose actions might have caused the Federation inconvenience but which did not realistically threaten Federation security.

Then there is clearly no reasoning with you on this one. I'm filing this under 'agree to disagree'. I am done wasting time arguing this with you.

 

[kkt]

As far as Eddington personally, add "firing on a superior officer". He shot Major Kira. On stun, but that probably just reduces "attempted murder" to "assault".

 

[Farscape One]

Funny enough, each Maquis traitor on DS9 fired on Kira.

Hudson... stunned Sisko, Kira, and Bashir.

Tom Riker... stunned Kira right before taking the Defiant.

Eddington... stunned Kira.

 

[kkt]

Yep. And at least in Eddington's case, he was a DS9 officer acting in order to subvert Kira's authority as acting commanding officer. Mutiny.

 

[Farscape One]

Absolutely correct.

Eddington completely had it coming, with Starfleet and Sisko on his ass.

 

[Sci]

As far as Eddington personally, add "firing on a superior officer". He shot Major Kira. On stun, but that probably just reduces "attempted murder" to "assault".

Resistance movements do indeed tend to use violence against the organizations that are oppressing them.

 

[DonIago]

Given that you're accusing the Federation of having abandoned the colonists (nevermind that the Federation offered to relocate them and that the colonists knew that a consequence of staying on their worlds would be that they'd be subject to Cardassian rule), what do you feel the Federation should have done instead? I'm assuming you consider the treaty flawed, but do you feel open warfare would have been better? What do you propose as an alternative to how things played out?

 

[Sci]

Given that you're accusing the Federation of having abandoned the colonists (nevermind that the Federation offered to relocate them and that the colonists knew that a consequence of staying on their worlds would be that they'd be subject to Cardassian rule),

Once again, this has not been canonically established. It was what happened on Dorvan V, but nothing canonical has ever established that this is what happened elsewhere.

what do you feel the Federation should have done instead? I'm assuming you consider the treaty flawed, but do you feel open warfare would have been better? What do you propose as an alternative to how things played out?

I think that either the Federation should have acted to protect the colonists from Central Command-armed militias, or that the Federation should have recognized the Maquis as an independent state and allowed the Maquis to operate freely without retaliation for acting to protect themselves.