"I'd call you a horse's ass, but even that produces something of use."
Eddington's vitriolic assessment of The Federation
- Thread starter Ragitsu
- Start date
"I'd call you a horse's ass, but even that produces something of use."
And too pathetic.
I saw it when it aired and found it hard to take at all seriously. He was practically foaming at the mouth. The most interesting thing about it for me was that it was such a divergence from how he'd been portrayed to that point. I imagine Kenneth Marshall(?) may not have known he was going to turn out Maquis from the start (because I doubt the writers conceived the character with that notion), but I'd really like to know when Eddington decided to go Maquis and whether it predated him being transferred to DS9. If there weren't real-world reasons then I'd say he did an amazing job of sustaining his cover.
Agreed. I saw it when it first aired, and him comparing the Federation to the Borg was so ludicrous, I was hoping his ship would just suddenly have a warp core breach just to shut him up.
To which Eddington would reply, "Yes, worlds have left the Federation before. And the Federation hated them for it and did everything it could to punish them for it. Because they hurt the Federation's national ego by wanting out."
Which is an entirely fair argument to make.
I mean, it's ludicrous in the sense that the Borg expand by conquest and the Federation expands by consent. But he is not wrong to argue that the Federation's goal is to persuade all worlds to join it, and he is not wrong to note that the Federation's belief that its values are universally applicable to all cultures means that it tries to get all cultures to adopt its values without always being upfront about that fact.
Now, Eddington is wrong about that making the Federation bad. But he's touched on a bit of truth and it hurts the national ego of Federation nationalists.
Except...the Federation hasn't actually DONE that.
If a member world simply wants to leave, and pursues all legal means of doing so, there's absolutely no evidence the Federation would "hate" them. They might ask WHY they want to leave (as is their right), they might try to talk them out of it, but if the world just wants to leave, they can.
There's the Maquis problem, of course, but that's not because the Maquis wanted to leave. It's because of, you know, the terrorist attacks and endangering of peace with the Cardassians and all that.
Eddington can't really hold up the Maquis as an example of what happens when a world wants to leave the Federation.
The Maquis engaged in terrorist attacks. That fact is inescapable. Is the Federation just supposed to sit on its ass while they go after who knows what? And not just Cardassian colonies in the DMZ, but innocent targets, such as the Malinche and, yes, the Defiant. The Federation can't be expected to put up with that.
THAT is why the Federation is pissed at the Maquis. Not for leaving, as such; for their specific actions in AND OUT of the DMZ. And yet, with Eddington's massive ego, he can't ever see past that.
Besides...
The Maquis engaged in terrorist attacks. That fact is inescapable. Is the Federation just supposed to sit on its ass while they go after who knows what? And not just Cardassian colonies in the DMZ, but innocent targets, such as the Malinche and, yes, the Defiant. The Federation can't be expected to put up with that.
THAT is why the Federation is pissed at the Maquis. Not for leaving, as such; for their specific actions in AND OUT of the DMZ. And yet, with Eddington's massive ego, he can't ever see past that.
Besides...
PLENTY of worlds left the Federation after the Burn. They didn't put up a fight then, did they?
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To which Eddington would respond, "We engaged in armed resistance against Cardassian militias illegally armed by the Central Command, in violation of treaty, while Starfleet refused to protect us and turned a blind eye to the Central Command's actions."
To which Eddington would respond, "The Maquis attacked Starfleet ships after Starfleet began attacking us, even as they turned a blind eye to Cardassian attacks against our people. The Malinche and the Defiant were legitimate targets."
That's a thousand years into the future. Hardly relevant to this discussion.
Which the colonies on the Cardassian side gave up their status as Federation citizens so they can stay in those colonies.
You can't expect Starfleet to fight for you if you tell them you don't want any part of the Federation. That's like someone giving up their U.S. citizenship to live in a foreign country and expect a U.S. ambassador to help you out of a bad situation.
And I used to be pro-Maquis...until they attacked places outside their colonies. The reason why the Bajoran resistance against the Occupation can be called freedom fighters is because they only fought in their own system. As soon as the Maquis attacked people and places outside their systems, they became terrorists... they moved from defending their homes to outright aggression.
That was only established to be true of the colony on Dorvan V from TNG "Journey's End." There was never any indication that this practice extended to every Federation colony in the DMZ.
However, let us suppose that it were true. If these people were no longer Federation citizens and this therefore meant Starfleet had no obligation to protect them from Central Command-armed militias... then why did Starfleet undertake security operations against them? If Starfleet had no duty to protect them, surely it also had no duty to oppose them.
So freedom fighters don't have a right to fight the people who assist their oppressors?
You mean why did Starfleet go after members of the Maquis who were stealing Federation industrial replicators ("FOR THE CAUSE"), stealing cargo from other Federation member worlds (Bolian freighters in "FOR THE UNIFORM"), attacking Starfleet ships (Malinche and Defiant), booby trapping computers of a Federation run station (DS9), and poison Cardassian planets?
And, oh yes... from day one, they were jeopardizing a treaty the Federation signed in good faith.
Yeah... Starfleet had no right to go after them.
(On the point about the treaty, I agree that the Cardassians were being sneaky and not trustworthy. The Maquis had a right to defend themselves. It's the aggressive stand they took that went beyond their colonies is what made them terrorists and lost my sympathy. Sisko offered Hudson and the Maquis the diplomatic solution, and bring evidence up. They didn't even try it. Had they attempted and then went rogue, my opinion would be quite different.)
And, oh yes... from day one, they were jeopardizing a treaty the Federation signed in good faith.
Yeah... Starfleet had no right to go after them.
(On the point about the treaty, I agree that the Cardassians were being sneaky and not trustworthy. The Maquis had a right to defend themselves. It's the aggressive stand they took that went beyond their colonies is what made them terrorists and lost my sympathy. Sisko offered Hudson and the Maquis the diplomatic solution, and bring evidence up. They didn't even try it. Had they attempted and then went rogue, my opinion would be quite different.)
^Pretty much this. The treaty was imperfect (and I don't think anyone felt otherwise, but that's how compromise works), and it definitely appeared that at least aspects of the Cardassian government weren't honoring it in good-faith, but it was still preferable to no treaty at all, and for the Federation colonists to respond in equally bad faith just further destabilized the entire situation. Diplomatic options may or may not have ultimately proven successful at resolving matters, but the Maquis rejected even making the attempt in favor of things like blowing up freighters (while they were perilously close to Federation-administered Bajoran space stations).
You're confusing your cause and effect. The Maquis started targeting Federation property and starships well after the Federation started targeting the Maquis.
How could their actions threaten the UFP/Cardassian treaty if they weren't Federation citizens anymore? That's like saying Romulan aggression towards the Cardassians threatened the UFP/Cardassian treaty.
Now hold on.
Were they Federation citizens when they took up arms against the Cardassians or not? I'm getting mixed signals here.
^^When the treaty was established, some Cardassian and Federation planets were traded between the two powers.
The Maquis were almost certainly made up of both Federation citizens and people on formerly-Federation worlds who had agreed to be ruled by the Cardassian Union rather than resettling. At least, I don't see any reason to believe it would be strictly one or the other, especially when you consider that we know there were Starfleet officers who were resigning their commissions to join the Maquis.
From Memory Alpha:
Concerning Federation policy with regard to the Maquis, Ronald D. Moore explained:
"All Human colonists were supposed to evacuate certain worlds in the DMZ as part of the treaty between the [Federation] and the Cardassians. Some colonists not only elected to remain behind, but also began a terrorist campaign against the Cardassians, which then prompted retaliatory strikes from Cardassia which in turn threatened to ignite a new war between Cardassia and the [Federation]. The Cardassian strikes were hitting innocent Human settlements in addition to Maquis military camps, which forced the Fed to intercede. While not all the Maquis were living in Cardassian space, (some were in the DMZ and some were even on Federation worlds) the Cardassians certainly blamed the [Federation] for the Maquis raids just as the Feds blamed the Cardassian government for attacks perpetrated by Cardassian colonists.
"That's the official rationale for the Fed campaign against the Maquis, but Eddington's statement that the real problem is that the Maquis have left the Federation and that no one leaves the Federation, has more than a kernel of truth in it. There's a sense of betrayal associated with the Maquis in the minds of the people in the Federation, regardless of whether that's an irrational feeling or not. Add to that sense of betrayal the fact that the Maquis have harassed and attacked several Federation targets over the years and you begin to see why the Feds refuse to turn a blind eye to this group." (AOL chat, 1997)
The Maquis were almost certainly made up of both Federation citizens and people on formerly-Federation worlds who had agreed to be ruled by the Cardassian Union rather than resettling. At least, I don't see any reason to believe it would be strictly one or the other, especially when you consider that we know there were Starfleet officers who were resigning their commissions to join the Maquis.
From Memory Alpha:
Concerning Federation policy with regard to the Maquis, Ronald D. Moore explained:
"All Human colonists were supposed to evacuate certain worlds in the DMZ as part of the treaty between the [Federation] and the Cardassians. Some colonists not only elected to remain behind, but also began a terrorist campaign against the Cardassians, which then prompted retaliatory strikes from Cardassia which in turn threatened to ignite a new war between Cardassia and the [Federation]. The Cardassian strikes were hitting innocent Human settlements in addition to Maquis military camps, which forced the Fed to intercede. While not all the Maquis were living in Cardassian space, (some were in the DMZ and some were even on Federation worlds) the Cardassians certainly blamed the [Federation] for the Maquis raids just as the Feds blamed the Cardassian government for attacks perpetrated by Cardassian colonists.
"That's the official rationale for the Fed campaign against the Maquis, but Eddington's statement that the real problem is that the Maquis have left the Federation and that no one leaves the Federation, has more than a kernel of truth in it. There's a sense of betrayal associated with the Maquis in the minds of the people in the Federation, regardless of whether that's an irrational feeling or not. Add to that sense of betrayal the fact that the Maquis have harassed and attacked several Federation targets over the years and you begin to see why the Feds refuse to turn a blind eye to this group." (AOL chat, 1997)
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And some were going the traitor route and stealing from Starfleet while being in the Maquis, like Ro Laren, Tom Riker and Eddington.
Chakotay did the honorable method... he officially resigned before going to the Maquis.
It's also another reason why the Maquis were targeted... they had senior officers who used their positions to steal from Starfleet.
It would be like an Air Force colonel stealing equipment to give to a foreign power. You think something like that should be taken lightly or just let go?
Chakotay did the honorable method... he officially resigned before going to the Maquis.
It's also another reason why the Maquis were targeted... they had senior officers who used their positions to steal from Starfleet.
It would be like an Air Force colonel stealing equipment to give to a foreign power. You think something like that should be taken lightly or just let go?
