Duplicate Kirk, Baby Dadddy?

[Captain Dax]

I was reading Captain's Daughter by Peter David and there's a scene with Jancie Rand, talking about how she had a daughter who died before she turned two. It'sheavily implied the father was the Transporter Duplicate Kirk that assaulted her in The Enemy Within. Has this ever been corroborated?

 

[Christopher]

I was reading Captain's Daughter by Peter David and there's a scene with Jancie Rand, talking about how she had a daughter who died before she turned two. It'sheavily implied the father was the Transporter Duplicate Kirk that assaulted her in The Enemy Within. Has this ever been corroborated?

The Captain's Daughter does not imply that the father was the duplicate, but rather, that it was Kirk himself. Janice says she left the father because she could see that he had a great future ahead of him and she didn't want to get in the way, which is not something she would say about someone she believed to be an impostor. It's impossible anyway, since the scene in "Enemy" clearly shows that the "impostor" had no time to do anything of the sort before he was interrupted.

And no, it hasn't been corroborated that Kirk was the father -- just the opposite. I've always felt it was a profound misunderstanding of Kirk's character to think he ever would've had sex with Rand while she was under his command. I mean, that was the whole defining thread of their relationship, that they both wanted it but he wouldn't let himself look at her that way as long as she was a member of his crew. So when I wrote Ex Machina, I referenced Rand's daughter and made it explicit that Kirk was not the father.

 

[Charles Phipps]

The Captain's Daughter does not imply that the father was the duplicate, but rather, that it was Kirk himself. Janice says she left the father because she could see that he had a great future ahead of him and she didn't want to get in the way, which is not something she would say about someone she believed to be an impostor. It's impossible anyway, since the scene in "Enemy" clearly shows that the "impostor" had no time to do anything of the sort before he was interrupted.

And no, it hasn't been corroborated that Kirk was the father -- just the opposite. I've always felt it was a profound misunderstanding of Kirk's character to think he ever would've had sex with Rand while she was under his command. I mean, that was the whole defining thread of their relationship, that they both wanted it but he wouldn't let himself look at her that way as long as she was a member of his crew. So when I wrote Ex Machina, I referenced Rand's daughter and made it explicit that Kirk was not the father.

A very good thing, Christopher, though I am now wondering what the context of the conception would be. Because I could see a sitcom-esque one due to the nature of Starfleet transfers: "Yeah, I had an affair with a girl on Starbaze 80 and...WHOOPS, here she is under my command."

Which apparently was how Moneypenny and James Bond hooked up once. They had an affair and then she was transferred to being M's secretary (Goodnight was James, and of course he had no hesitation to that affair).

 

[Christopher]

A very good thing, Christopher, though I am now wondering what the context of the conception would be. Because I could see a sitcom-esque one due to the nature of Starfleet transfers: "Yeah, I had an affair with a girl on Starbaze 80 and...WHOOPS, here she is under my command."

That's kind of similar to a deleted bit from the script to "Dagger of the Mind" that explained why Kirk was so embarrassed to see Helen Noel on the transporter platform. When he danced with her at the Christmas party, it was because he didn't realize she was a member of his crew, thinking she was just a visiting scientist. So when he realized he'd gotten flirty with someone under his command, he was mortified, because he was way too professional to do such a thing.

A lot of people mistake the fantasy scenario Helen created in Kirk's mind for something that really happened, but the whole point of it was to test the neural neutralizer's ability to create false memories. In reality, they only "danced [and] talked about the stars." It's telling that, even though Adams brainwashes Kirk to believe he's in love with Helen, it only takes a moment for Kirk to shake off that illusion and coldly order Helen to risk her life crawling through a duct with exposed power conduits. In the first season, Kirk was intended to be a very serious, disciplined officer who wouldn't allow himself romantic thoughts on duty, which was the whole reason that the implanted memory of hooking up with Helen was intended to be so out of character. But too many people misremember the episode and mistake the impossible fantasy for the reality. Which is part of what led to the latter-day misunderstanding of Kirk as someone willing to sleep with female crew members such as Rand.

 

[Charles Phipps]

That's kind of similar to a deleted bit from the script to "Dagger of the Mind" that explained why Kirk was so embarrassed to see Helen Noel on the transporter platform. When he danced with her at the Christmas party, it was because he didn't realize she was a member of his crew, thinking she was just a visiting scientist. So when he realized he'd gotten flirty with someone under his command, he was mortified, because he was way too professional to do such a thing.

Yes, there's definitely some question over whether it's illegal in Starfleet but I definitely got the impression that it should be and things like TNG's "Lessons" should be forbidden. I didn't have a problem with ENT's Trip and T'Pol because I thought that she was actually outside of the chain of command as their Vulcan science officer. Certainly, I don't think Kirk would ever take advantage like that even in the Space Sixties.

So I definitely agree with your interpretation of Kirk.

It would also be strange that Kirk would have three children that he had no part in the lives of. Assuming we count T'Kir.

 

[F. King Daniel]

I was reading Captain's Daughter by Peter David and there's a scene with Jancie Rand, talking about how she had a daughter who died before she turned two. It'sheavily implied the father was the Transporter Duplicate Kirk that assaulted her in The Enemy Within. Has this ever been corroborated?

That was my reading of it too, and the child didn't survive because her father was a weird incomplete transporter id monster.

It was the 60's, you could read into it as the attack went farther than what we saw.

 

[Christopher]

That was my reading of it too, and the child didn't survive because her father was a weird incomplete transporter id monster.

Why would you read it that way? Here's the passage (The Captain's Daughter, p. 40):

"The father," Sulu asked. "Do you mind my asking... who it was."
She sighed. "It doesn't matter," she said. "He's dead now too."
"Did you ever tell him?"
"I didn't want to risk sidetracking his career. You see... I suspected that he was headed for a great destiny, and I didn't want to do anything to distract him from it."
"And did he fulfill his great destiny?"
With a sad look she said, "We all do, Sulu. We all do." And she walked out of his quarters.

I don't see anything in there that remotely suggests the child resulted from rape. On the contrary, it sounds more like Peter was implying Kirk and Rand had an affair.

It was the 60's, you could read into it as the attack went farther than what we saw.

That's simply impossible. The duplicate ran out of Rand's quarters to attack Technician Fisher just after he hit the alert button on the intercom. A security team would've been deployed to the location immediately. The impostor wouldn't have had time to go back to Rand's quarters, assault her all over again, etc., nor would he have been stupid enough to stay in the area while there was an alarm going off. Even if he had been stupid enough to try for Rand again, she would surely have either locked her door or run off for help by the time he got back.

Not to mention, why would anyone want to ignore the facts to read something so awful into the scene? It would be horribly cruel to Janice Rand to assume the rape attempt was successful, let alone that it forced a child on her. It would be in particularly poor taste considering Grace Lee Whitney's real-life experience with sexual assault during the time she was appearing in Star Trek.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Regardless of who the father was...one would think that, by this point in the future, unplanned pregnancies would have long since been rendered obsolete. Surely by the 23rd century, birth control is absolutely reliable?

 

[ATimson]

Surely by the 23rd century, birth control is absolutely reliable?

Depends on how you define "reliable". Even if it's 100% perfect when used, that doesn't mean that people will necessarily remember to use it. (See also: Sisko.)

 

[hbquikcomjamesl]

. . . but I definitely got the impression that it should be and things like TNG's "Lessons" should be forbidden. I didn't have a problem with ENT's Trip and T'Pol because I thought that she was actually outside of the chain of command as their Vulcan science officer.

How are they different? And how is either one different from Angela Martine and the late Robert Tomlinson? Or from Beverly and Jack? Or Beverly and Jean-Luc? Or more pointedly, from Deanna and Will?

 

[Christopher]

How are they different? And how is either one different from Angela Martine and the late Robert Tomlinson?

Those two were enlisted, so I don't know if the same rules apply. And they probably both reported to the same commanding officer, rather than one being in authority over the other.

Or from Beverly and Jack?

I don't think they served on the same ship. Jack was on the Stargazer crew with Picard, but Beverly wasn't, since he only met Beverly through Jack. Whether they served together on some previous ship where Jack served is unknown. But again, as long as neither was directly under the other's command, I don't think it would be an issue.

Or Beverly and Jean-Luc? Or more pointedly, from Deanna and Will?

Well, the former never actually happened in the main timeline, but things like the latter and Picard/Nella Daren suggest that the "less military" 24th-century Starfleet is more flexible about such things.

Anyway, I don't know if Kirk's avoidance of romance with women under his command was so much a formal Starfleet rule as his own sense of duty and discipline. The idea, particularly in the first season, was that he was driven by duty and "married to his ship," with no room in his life for any other commitment.

 

[Charles Phipps]

How are they different? And how is either one different from Angela Martine and the late Robert Tomlinson? Or from Beverly and Jack? Or Beverly and Jean-Luc? Or more pointedly, from Deanna and Will?

Because T'Pol is a member of a foreign government's military? Like an IDF and a US Marine.

Mind you, they never seem to act like she's not part of Starfleet.

 

[hbquikcomjamesl]

There was a line in BT about one of the two lovebirds outranking the other. At least temporarily.

And there is the matter of a lot more braid between Kirk and Rand.

 

[DGCatAniSiri]

Because T'Pol is a member of a foreign government's military? Like an IDF and a US Marine.

Mind you, they never seem to act like she's not part of Starfleet.

Wasn’t she given a Starfleet commission in season three, the season that the T’Pol/Trip relationship started to really take off, since Vulcan High Command wouldn’t allow one of their officers go to the Expanse?

 

[Avro Arrow]

Those two were enlisted, so I don't know if the same rules apply. And they probably both reported to the same commanding officer, rather than one being in authority over the other.

Tomlinson was a lieutenant, and was stated in dialogue to be Martine's superior officer.

ANGELA: (the bride) Phaser control acknowledging. All weapons energising to full.
ROBERT: (the groom) Happy wedding day, almost.
ANGELA: You won't get off my hook this easily. I'm going to marry you, Mister, battle or phaser weapons notwithstanding.
ROBERT: Well, meanwhile, temporarily at least, I am still your superior officer. So get with it, Mister.

[T]hings like the latter and Picard/Nella Daren suggest that the "less military" 24th-century Starfleet is more flexible about such things.

Anyway, I don't know if Kirk's avoidance of romance with women under his command was so much a formal Starfleet rule as his own sense of duty and discipline.

It certainly doesn't appear that there is any such rule, either in the 23rd century or the 24th. It always struck me a little odd that Starfleet seems to be significantly more lax in this area than my 21st-century workplace.

 

[flandry84]

I don’t see how people can read that passage and immediately peg Kirk as the guy.Starfleet is full of people bound for “a great destiny”.
That interpretation of Kirk being just a walking gland really bugs me.

 

[Christopher]

And there is the matter of a lot more braid between Kirk and Rand.

Not only that, but she was his yeoman, his personal assistant and secretary, working directly under him. She was the Radar to his Colonel Potter. So it's a particularly close working relationship that has to go smoothly if he wants to do his job effectively. Even if he were free to romance other members of his crew, it would be a bad idea with his own yeoman.

Tomlinson was a lieutenant, and was stated in dialogue to be Martine's superior officer.

Scotty referred to him in dialogue as "Specialist Tomlinson." James Blish's adaptation refers to the couple at the wedding as "Specialist (phaser) Robert Tomlinson and Spec. 2nd Cl. (phaser) Angela Martine," most likely taken verbatim from the script. Specialist is an enlisted rating; at the time TOS was made, it was used in the U.S. Navy as part of the petty officer pay structure.

Yes, Tomlinson has a lieutenant's stripe on his uniform, which is the reason Memory Alpha jumps to the conclusion that he's a lieutenant, but there are many instances in Trek of erroneous costuming with regard to rank, notably Chief O'Brien being given lieutenant's pins for quite some time before an enlisted pin was designed.

So Memory Alpha is wrong. Tomlinson and Martine were both enlisted petty officers one step apart in rating. As I said, I don't think ranks/ratings matter as much for enlisted personnel as for officers.

That interpretation of Kirk being just a walking gland really bugs me.

Indeed. Kirk was originally written as just the opposite -- in "Mudd's Women," he was the only human male on the ship unaffected by the title characters. Most of his romantic plots were either old flames from the past, the result of an altered mental state, women chasing after him with mixed results, calculated seductions in service to the mission, or in rare cases, sincere love affairs (as with Edith or Miramanee). In subsequent seasons, he was written closer to the womanizing norm for TV action heroes of the day, but Kirk was practically a monk compared to womanizers like The Wild Wild West's Jim West or The Man from UNCLE's Napoleon Solo.

 

[hbquikcomjamesl]

Well said. I was a bit terse downright laconic because I was posting from my cell phone. A clamshell; I refuse to carry (or even own) a full-on smartphone.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Depends on how you define "reliable". Even if it's 100% perfect when used, that doesn't mean that people will necessarily remember to use it. (See also: Sisko.)

Well, yeah, of course they have to actually use it. But regardless whether or not it was Kirk and Rand, surely they wouldn't forget? Kirk definitely would not, and I don't think Rand would have either.

On DS9, for example, Kasidy became pregnant, and it would appear that Sisko forgot - but I always thought he did it on purpose (Kas was definitely teasing him about it) because he wanted a child.

 

[DGCatAniSiri]

Well, yeah, of course they have to actually use it. But regardless whether or not it was Kirk and Rand, surely they wouldn't forget? Kirk definitely would not, and I don't think Rand would have either.

On DS9, for example, Kasidy became pregnant, and it would appear that Sisko forgot - but I always thought he did it on purpose (Kas was definitely teasing him about it) because he wanted a child.

I find it very unlikely it was intentional on Sisko's part - after all, he spent the build up to the wedding all concerned about the Prophets' warning "you will know nothing but sorrow," I don't think he'd have risked having a child and seeing that potentially be the sorrow in question on any kind of a conscious level. It seemed pretty clear to me that that was purely a case where it was something that was Sisko's responsibility but slipped his mind all the same, given all the pressures of the war and the battle planning.

I mean, given the real world time between the episodes, I kinda always had the impression that the time of conception might even have been right around the point that the Defiant was destroyed, that he and Kasidy had celebrated his survival without bothering to take that injection.