Duotronics vs Isolinear

[Will_Carter]

Teletype? I was thinking of old style electromechanical cash registers. Or maybe the Harvard Mk 1 relay based computer...

I come from a background of ham radio and retro computing. Also I have heard the same teletypes used as a stock sound for old nightly news bits to signify 'incoming stories.' Definitely electromechanical though. As that's what teletypes are. take inloaded data and spit it out or in real time take input from your side and shove it out. it's a glorified typewriter. Dumb terminals like you'd hook up to the big iron of the sixties and seventies were essentially the same thing. Except replace the paper printout wit ha monitor and memory enough to either show what was on screen, or if you were lucky have enough to scroll back.

The history is damned facinating. There is a reason TTY in linux is shorthand for Terminal Interface.

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What is a TTY on Linux? (and How to Use the tty Command)

PTS? TTY? The Linux tty command will explain all. (Bonus: What is a TTY, anyway? We explain what it is---and where it came from)

www.howtogeek.com

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

VOY's computer core processor was capable of transluminal processing, and ENT-D led with that tech (unless ENT-C did).

I wouldn't be surprised if Enterprise-C or the Ambassador Class was a early prototype of that tech.

 

[Will_Carter]

I wouldn't be surprised if Enterprise-C or the Ambassador Class was a early prototype of that tech.

Weren't there unspecified 'subspace processors'?

 

[blssdwlf]

This.
VOY's computer core processor was capable of transluminal processing, and ENT-D led with that tech (unless ENT-C did).

Hmm, the dialogue from "Concerning Flight" doesn't say anything about the lineage of Voyager's computer core.

TAU: Computer, tell us your technical specifications.​

COMPUTER: Simultaneous access to forty seven million data channels, trans-luminal processing at five hundred seventy five trillion calculations per nanoseconds.​

...​

COMPUTER: Operational temperature margins from ten degrees kelvin to one thousand seven hundred ninety degrees kelvin.​

...​

JANEWAY: Yes. Computer, do you recognize my voice?​

COMPUTER: Affirmative.​

JANEWAY: Well, that's a start.​

DA VINCI: Che bella! There's a mechanical woman inside.​

JANEWAY: In a way, yes. Initiate a level four induction relay overload.​

COMPUTER: That procedure is not recommended.​

JANEWAY: Command override. Janeway pi one one zero.​

COMPUTER: Authorization confirmed. Initiating overload.​

...​

TUVOK: Commander. I'm detecting a power surge in the subspace frequency range.​

CHAKOTAY: Could be the processor. Lock on. Increase power to the confinement beam. With any luck, we might be able to pull the Captain out of there along with it.​

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Weren't there unspecified 'subspace processors'?

I'd have to look it up on the script or somewhere.

 

[knightgrace]

I come from a background of ham radio and retro computing. Also I have heard the same teletypes used as a stock sound for old nightly news bits to signify 'incoming stories.' Definitely electromechanical though. As that's what teletypes are. take inloaded data and spit it out or in real time take input from your side and shove it out. it's a glorified typewriter. Dumb terminals like you'd hook up to the big iron of the sixties and seventies were essentially the same thing. Except replace the paper printout wit ha monitor and memory enough to either show what was on screen, or if you were lucky have enough to scroll back.

The history is damned facinating. There is a reason TTY in linux is shorthand for Terminal Interface.

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What is a TTY on Linux? (and How to Use the tty Command)

PTS? TTY? The Linux tty command will explain all. (Bonus: What is a TTY, anyway? We explain what it is---and where it came from)

www.howtogeek.com

Quite interesting. One of my thoughts from a few months ago was that the clicking was a first generation attempt to reply in English. It would evolve the correct reply to be as English like as possible in as few generations as possible through feedback...

 

[Deks]

Hmm, the dialogue from "Concerning Flight" doesn't say anything about the lineage of Voyager's computer core.

TAU: Computer, tell us your technical specifications.​

COMPUTER: Simultaneous access to forty seven million data channels, trans-luminal processing at five hundred seventy five trillion calculations per nanoseconds.​

...​

COMPUTER: Operational temperature margins from ten degrees kelvin to one thousand seven hundred ninety degrees kelvin.​

...​

JANEWAY: Yes. Computer, do you recognize my voice?​

COMPUTER: Affirmative.​

JANEWAY: Well, that's a start.​

DA VINCI: Che bella! There's a mechanical woman inside.​

JANEWAY: In a way, yes. Initiate a level four induction relay overload.​

COMPUTER: That procedure is not recommended.​

JANEWAY: Command override. Janeway pi one one zero.​

COMPUTER: Authorization confirmed. Initiating overload.​

...​

TUVOK: Commander. I'm detecting a power surge in the subspace frequency range.​

CHAKOTAY: Could be the processor. Lock on. Increase power to the confinement beam. With any luck, we might be able to pull the Captain out of there along with it.​

While I'll agree that dialogue doesn't mention the ENT-D, transluminal processing seems like a thing that started with the ENT-D given the Galaxy class was a more or less radical departure from previous ship designs and a test bed for new technologies and ship designs that followed (unless of course the ENT-C (ambassador class) had a version of it which was a precursor to the one used on Galaxy class ships.

 

[blssdwlf]

While I'll agree that dialogue doesn't mention the ENT-D, transluminal processing seems like a thing that started with the ENT-D given the Galaxy class was a more or less radical departure from previous ship designs and a test bed for new technologies and ship designs that followed (unless of course the ENT-C (ambassador class) had a version of it which was a precursor to the one used on Galaxy class ships.

Curious then, why would earlier warp ships not have an FTL processor?

 

[Deks]

Curious then, why would earlier warp ships not have an FTL processor?

Duotronics vs Isolinear tech perhaps.
Duotroinics might not support FTL processing vs Isolinear chips which became a standard - but it looks like Isolinear chips were used on the ENT-B (from what we saw in Generations when Kirk was in the deflector control room)... they were much larger than the ones on the D, so its possible the ENT-B had a much more primitive version of the technology - so I wouldn't discount the possibility that if Isolinear circuitry is connected, the ships towards the end of the 23rd century and early 24th may have started using these systems - but it may not have been until the D that SF made the full blown transition to FTL processing (up until then they may have used it in select systems - sort of like VOY started using bio-neural circuitry for faster processing of information/data - but in this instance it would be like a primitive version to an organic computer - If SF does transition to it at some point).

 

[Will_Carter]

Duotroinics might not support FTL processing

This may well explain why Starbase 80 is unaffected by the outpouring of tacyons from that one anomoly. If Isolinear uses subspace or other superluminal processing methods, getting bombarded by particles that are essentially anti-time would be like your computer getting hit by cosmic rays. Constant bit flips and errors and it ends up having no idea how to correct all the errors.

 

[blssdwlf]

Duotronics vs Isolinear tech perhaps.
Duotroinics might not support FTL processing vs Isolinear chips which became a standard - but it looks like Isolinear chips were used on the ENT-B (from what we saw in Generations when Kirk was in the deflector control room)... they were much larger than the ones on the D, so its possible the ENT-B had a much more primitive version of the technology - so I wouldn't discount the possibility that if Isolinear circuitry is connected, the ships towards the end of the 23rd century and early 24th may have started using these systems - but it may not have been until the D that SF made the full blown transition to FTL processing (up until then they may have used it in select systems - sort of like VOY started using bio-neural circuitry for faster processing of information/data - but in this instance it would be like a primitive version to an organic computer - If SF does transition to it at some point).

Hold on... Voyager's computer core looks nothing like the Enterprise-D's core. If we're going just by looks, then *only* the Intrepid-class has FTL computers and it has nothing to do with isolinear technology. That would be rather odd, IMHO. You didn't really answer why earlier warp ships wouldn't have an FTL processor but perhaps you don't need to? It would make more sense that warp driven ships have FTL processors so their FTL engines and sensors can work in real-time, IMHO.

The only comparison I could find between Duotronic and Isolinear is from "Relics" and the only difference pointed out between engineers is that Isolinear is more efficient.

SCOTT: What have you done with the duotronic enhancers?​

LAFORGE: Those were replaced with isolinear chips about forty years ago. It's a lot more efficient now.​

 

[Will_Carter]

SCOTT: What have you done with the duotronic enhancers?LAFORGE: Those were replaced with isolinear chips about forty years ago. It's a lot more efficient now.

I assume then that Isolinear hit its stride in the 2320's. That there are 'enhancers' suggests a later addition to duotronics based systems so a logical presumption would be those being a thing around the time of the refit era.

 

[blssdwlf]

I assume then that Isolinear hit its stride in the 2320's. That there are 'enhancers' suggests a later addition to duotronics based systems so a logical presumption would be those being a thing around the time of the refit era.

I had understood in the dialogue that the "enhancers" are a type of transporter equipment and not an addition to duotronics. "Isolinear chips" were then said to be equivalent to "duotronic enhancers" in that particular function.

EDIT: Or you could hear it as, "the duotronics in the enhancers were replaced by isolinear chips and these are isolinear enhancers" since Scotty seems to be looking at something related to the transporter system where "enhancers" are used...

Along the same lines, we hear "duotronic" applied to describe various systems like "old-style duotronic sensor array", "duotronic module", "duotronic" pathways, "duotronic systems", "duotronic probe", "duotronic circuitry" and even "duotronic algorithms". And "isolinear" to describe "isolinear chip", "isolinear rod", "isolinear coprocessor", "isolinear data subprocessor", "isolinear interface", "isolinear tag", "isolinear optical chip", "isolinear controllers", "isolinear processor", "isolinear processing chip", "isolinear frequency", "isolinear spanner".

 

[knightgrace]

Duotronics vs Isolinear tech perhaps.
Duotroinics might not support FTL processing vs Isolinear chips which became a standard - but it looks like Isolinear chips were used on the ENT-B (from what we saw in Generations when Kirk was in the deflector control room)... they were much larger than the ones on the D, so its possible the ENT-B had a much more primitive version of the technology - so I wouldn't discount the possibility that if Isolinear circuitry is connected, the ships towards the end of the 23rd century and early 24th may have started using these systems - but it may not have been until the D that SF made the full blown transition to FTL processing (up until then they may have used it in select systems - sort of like VOY started using bio-neural circuitry for faster processing of information/data - but in this instance it would be like a primitive version to an organic computer - If SF does transition to it at some point).

I think of what we saw in Star Trek: Generations, were Duotronic Enhancers.
Which leaves a problem that was pointed out some months ago, on this Board. What were the chips in TMP Tricorder? If I remember correctly the author thought that they were Isolinear...

Problem: various sources list the TMP Enterprise as having Duotronic II technology, (Ships of the Starfleet, volume one, and volume2 lists; Heavy Cruiser Evolution Plans) Duotronic III, Duotronic IV...

So, what constitutes Duotronic II, III, and IV? Best guess.... the existence of Multitronic chips... in Duotronic II whole banks had Multitronic chips instead of Duotronic chips, in a regular way. Duotronic III, had Multitronic chips wherever they were need to improve throughput. Apparently random, but not. (There was a study done some years ago about the use of smart cruise controls in automobiles, and how that would affect traffic flow. It turns out that if one in five automobiles has a smart cruise control, then traffic will flow much smoother.) So, one Multitronic chip per five chips will improve data traffic. (What is really weird is that this study showed that automobiles follow Boole's Ideal Gas Law(go figure) so Duotronic IV does what??? Nothing but Duotronic Enhancers??? Changing as needed on the fly???
Yes, I have been working on the computers of Star Trek.

 

[publiusr]

I had this idea that long before TOS there was a cyberpunk period—and following a disaster some savant found a way to code in binary—-and hacking became more difficult.

 

[knightgrace]

By the way, I realized something a few months ago. That warp field that supports FTL computing in Isolinear computing cores can be adjusted, into a full blown warp drive...
This might cause problems with Isolinear optical chips, but you can design around that.

This explains the Primary Hull of the Enterprise D, getting to Far Point station.

It also explains how a Galaxy class Captain's Yacht, could attain warp speed. Just a side issue.

 

[mithril]

it would be far easier to repurpose the 'subspace driver coils' in the impulse engines. which already are basically just low powered warp engines being used to accelerate the exhaust and reduce mass.

but yeah, anything that make use of subspace field projecting technologies can probably be reworked into at least a slow form of warp engine. since the warp drive is just a big subspace field generator, and the propulsion effect is due to the field shape.

as far a dueotronic vs isolinear.. the general impression i get is that:

Duotronics are more an outgrowth of our current computing, using 'transtators' instead of transistors, but still functioning through electrical circuits and such. (while the TOS remastered edition got rid of the obviously 1960's parts in the TOS episodes, they replaced them with futuristic versions of the same sort of wires and chips technology, with some similarities to the DS9 tribbleations set stuff. and ENT of course used real world looking styles of computer parts as well, though as the show profgressed they made it look more and more like TOS)

while isolinear seems to be be an all new approach, with most of its important parts being optical based in some way, given the use of transparent chips, light conducting optical tubes isntead of wires, and so on.

that said, we see something similar to Isolinear chips in use aboard a Vulcan starship in ENT "Impulse", [img1, img2, img3 ] so it is possible that early forms of isolinear technology have existed for a long time, but were just not as good as Duotronics for most applications. (btw did anyone notice that the vulcan ship's controls, displays, and crew stations were laid out much like the TOS enterprise was? gem buttons and all? very clever set designers..)

 

[Will_Carter]

(btw did anyone notice that the vulcan ship's controls, displays, and crew stations were laid out much like the TOS enterprise was? gem buttons and all? very clever set designers..)

That is one of the subtle things I loved about ENT. They actually paid attention to continuity in set design so made sure to try making things at least feel like a plausible transition from 'what we could do in a century' towards 'what looks like precursors to ToS.'

 

[Will_Carter]

This explains the Primary Hull of the Enterprise D, getting to Far Point station.

If i recall correctly the saucer can't create a warp bubble, but can sustain one if it seperated at warp. Stands to reason it does so by the method described in this thread.

 

[knightgrace]

As has been pointed out numerous times, it makes no sense that the saucer section of the Enterprise-D doesn't have warp drive.
This may be true, in the sense that it has no nacelles. But, looking at the Whitehead blueprints, it occurred to me that the Impulse plus the warp field generators, could form a 'higher' energy effect than expected. But why not go beyond this and say that since the computer cores are a mission critical portion of the ship, that their power supply, under normal circumstances, is set for "low", abnormal for 'low ', and saucer detached operations, on "high". The real problem wouldn't be with power intensity, but what it does to the Isolinear Chromatic Optical Chips...
For the 24th century time period that we are talking about, this should be an easy work around.

Now from what I have been reading recently on the net, Processor-in-memory computation, is again being seriously discussed. This is obviously what the creators back in the 1980s were alluding to, with so many Isolinear Optical Chips involved in the main computer computer cores. Which leads to another problem.

The subprocessors scattered around the ship. These obviously do the primary low level work, with little to no intervention by the cores, which leaves us with a quandary. Just what is being done by the main computer cores? Answer: sensor analysis, replicator, and holodecks... Then keep in mind that the main computer cores are supposed to be far more sentient and sapient than Data is. This follows from the size differences between a main computer core and Data.
The fact that Artificial Intelligence in the real world hallucinates, is an actual cause for concern. Meaning that there is a reason why in the episode 'Contagion', that only ninety percent of the Enterprise is beyond crew intervention. And why there are subprocessors to begin with.