Ah. So, to you, a "great leader" is merely one who is effective in obtaining power, and morality is irrelevant.
You should strongly reconsider where your priorities lie when you throw words around like "great."
Dukat - Genius or Egocentric Imbecile?
- Thread starter Sisko4Life
- Start date
Ah. So, to you, a "great leader" is merely one who is effective in obtaining power, and morality is irrelevant.
You should strongly reconsider where your priorities lie when you throw words around like "great."
yes, this. I'm not sure where you get your info, but Hitler was a HORRIBLE military leader. A political genius, yes. But it was his bungling of military matters that may well have cost Nazi Germany the war.(A good thing, to be sure, but not what he had in mind)
Nah, he was popular because Marc Alaimo was so charismatic and talented, and after all, the audience is capable of understanding that Dukat is a fictional character, and it's absurd to loathe a character who commits fictional crimes against humanity the same way you'd loathe a real-life person who does the same.
The DS9 writers got freaked out at Dukat's popularity, as though he were a real person and his popularity was sinister, rather than just a reflection of great writing and acting. They should have been flattered. Instead, they scuttled a great character by trying to make him loathsome, but all they did was reveal themselves to be ridiculous.
Dukat isn't the idiot, the DS9 writers are the idiots.
The sense I always got was not that the writers reacted negatively to Dukat's popularity, but to the tendency some DS9 fans had to try to justify his actions or whitewash them -- to generally treat him as though he were, in-universe, a great leader rather than, out-universe, a great villain.
This. Completely agreed.
Absolutely, but it should have been (and was) clear from the very start. The man was the governor of an occupied planet being striped mined for about half a century, the blood of hundreds of thousands if not millions is on his hands.
Just because he was articulate and had his moments of humanity (for lack of a better word) does not disguise the fact that in the end Gul Dukat was a complete monster of the lowest order. It was all there from the beginning, the ego and the self delusion and the ultimate self serving nature that would nearly doom his people.
Not an imbecile but a dangerous individual who caused the deaths of billions through his ego. Londo Mollari with out the heroic redemption at the end.
Just because he was articulate and had his moments of humanity (for lack of a better word) does not disguise the fact that in the end Gul Dukat was a complete monster of the lowest order. It was all there from the beginning, the ego and the self delusion and the ultimate self serving nature that would nearly doom his people.
Not an imbecile but a dangerous individual who caused the deaths of billions through his ego. Londo Mollari with out the heroic redemption at the end.
At least Londo was sought out by the "Devil" for the deal with his people and didn't know what was happening until later, Dukat SOUGHT OUT the Dominion to make Cardassia their Vassal (with him as Liege Lord) and later on sought out the Pah-Wraiths.
It's one thing to get sucked into a deal with the Devil, it's another to actively seek out the Devil to make those deals.
It's one thing to get sucked into a deal with the Devil, it's another to actively seek out the Devil to make those deals.
Plus, Londo truly cared for the Centauri Republic, probably above all else, certainly above himself. In contrast, as we've discussed, there's a strong case to be made that Dukat didn't truly care for Cardassia at all.
Clearly, he didn't.
He was upset that they left Bajor, not because it was bad for Cardassia but because it happened during his Prefectship and made him look bad. That was why he supported plans by Central Command to take it back (with himself in charge again).
When the Command was overthrown and replaced by the Detapa Council, he was happy. Was it because Cardassia was a more free society now? No, it was because he was appointed head of the Military by the Council. It was solely because of his promotion.
When Cardassia joined the Dominion, was he happy because it meant they'd be strong again? No, he set up the deal for them to become a Dominion Vassal because he'd be the Cardassian Warlord in charge.
When he went about unleashing the Pah Wraiths, was it because they'd get rid of the Prophets and allow Dominion reinforcements to arrive and win the war? No, it was because he was their chosen Emissary and would get...something in exchange for releasing them.
It was all about him, right from the start.
He was upset that they left Bajor, not because it was bad for Cardassia but because it happened during his Prefectship and made him look bad. That was why he supported plans by Central Command to take it back (with himself in charge again).
When the Command was overthrown and replaced by the Detapa Council, he was happy. Was it because Cardassia was a more free society now? No, it was because he was appointed head of the Military by the Council. It was solely because of his promotion.
When Cardassia joined the Dominion, was he happy because it meant they'd be strong again? No, he set up the deal for them to become a Dominion Vassal because he'd be the Cardassian Warlord in charge.
When he went about unleashing the Pah Wraiths, was it because they'd get rid of the Prophets and allow Dominion reinforcements to arrive and win the war? No, it was because he was their chosen Emissary and would get...something in exchange for releasing them.
It was all about him, right from the start.
He even said as much in Return to grace. Only Dukat could fight the Klingon Empire because he was the Last true Cardassian left. Londo talked of his wives and his love for his homeworld, he was perfectly happy to suffer damnation just as long as his people were free in the end.
Dukat didn't even seem to care about the near genocide of the Cardassians. (although by then he had entered full on over the top madman mode and stopped being the Dukat that we'd detested and became a puppet for the Legions of ultimate Evil).
I believe that Terry Pratchett put it best when he stated that some people look inwards at themselves and think they are the universe. Dukat had a bad, bad case of this.
Dukat didn't even seem to care about the near genocide of the Cardassians. (although by then he had entered full on over the top madman mode and stopped being the Dukat that we'd detested and became a puppet for the Legions of ultimate Evil).
I believe that Terry Pratchett put it best when he stated that some people look inwards at themselves and think they are the universe. Dukat had a bad, bad case of this.
Oh, I fully agree. I said as much upthread. I just thought I'd acknowledge that some people disagree.
No. The Dominion war was at whitewash status under Dukat's leadership. You can't say it was his fault that Operation Return succeeded because divine intervention completely tipped the War into the Feds favor because of Sisko. This spinoff really was the writers decision to do away with Dukat and turn him completely into the madman they intended (and to open up the Sisko-Prophet relationship saga). Dukat loses the station and his daughter because of Sisko's divine intervention, and his "revenge" is supposed to be his crazy mumbo jumbo for the rest of the series. Quiet as kept, I think Dukat was the only one even aware that it was Sisko personally that caused the Prophets to remove the fleet and make the war a 180. He says in Tears of the Prophets "I dont blame you Damar, you merely fired the phaser. It was Captain Sisko that forced your hand." I found it pretty interesting that Dukat is the only one that seems to show on screen that actually comprehends everything that happened in that wormhole and how it links to Sisko. Actually a little baffled as to why its never even discussed by any of the characters after it happened -_-. 2800 ships vanish and no questions???
I beg to differ. Just because it's happened before (and it hasn't, not in this magnitude),doesn't make it any less of a Deus Ex Machina. Please, they needed to find a way to defeat that huge Dominion fleet, that was going to tear the Feds a new one in no time, and they had none. Then, wham, the Prophets (yuck) show up and go all medieval on the Dominionites. If they hadn't, the Alpha Quadrant would have been doomed, and the writers were too damn lazy to come up with either a better way out, or go the whole hog and make the Feds lose this battle.
Given the fact that the Prophets were introduced as aliens and turned to gods who wipe out a threat to the plucky heroes, this is the very definition of a Deus ex Machina.
I hate it with the fire of a thousand suns. It needs to go into a fire and die.
/rant
^ As a man who appreciates a good rant might I be the first to congratulate you on a brilliant example of the medium
.
Bravo.
As for a non-Deus Ex Machina ending for Sacrifice of Angels I always wondered if, after breaking through the Dominion line of battle, the Feds and Klingons could not have just sited their fleets at the mouth of the wormhole and launched a continuous salvo of torpedoes at the opening vortex thereby either collapsing the wormhole or damaging the fleet.
Incredibly stupid I know but I've got nothing better...
. Bravo.
As for a non-Deus Ex Machina ending for Sacrifice of Angels I always wondered if, after breaking through the Dominion line of battle, the Feds and Klingons could not have just sited their fleets at the mouth of the wormhole and launched a continuous salvo of torpedoes at the opening vortex thereby either collapsing the wormhole or damaging the fleet.
Incredibly stupid I know but I've got nothing better...
I've come to terms with the ending of Sacrifice of Angels, though I don't think it was lazy writing and more of an attempt to get back to the Sisko = tragic hero, Dukat = super villain hatred relationship. Too much of the middle seasons left shades of grey and a lack of clear cut evil. It also seemed like the show was getting away from its main idea that it was all about Sisko and his relationship with Bajor and as Emissary and it was starting to get too caught up in the Dominion - Starfleet struggle
^ As a man who appreciates a good rant might I be the first to congratulate you on a brilliant example of the medium
Bravo.
As for a non-Deus Ex Machina ending for Sacrifice of Angels I always wondered if, after breaking through the Dominion line of battle, the Feds and Klingons could not have just sited their fleets at the mouth of the wormhole and launched a continuous salvo of torpedoes at the opening vortex thereby either collapsing the wormhole or damaging the fleet.
Incredibly stupid I know but I've got nothing better...
Thanks, I'll just take that as a compliment. Your idea isn't stupid at all. It's more plausible (and possible, in-universe, because they already tried that once and only failed due to Changeling!Bashir's sabotage) and not so horribly convoluted. I like it when the heroes get out of a pickle by themselves, and not through the help of some supernatural beings. That's just lame.
Also, TEH EVULZ! is horribly overrated. What's wrong with shades of grey? Honestly, if it were this simple (I'm looking at you, Harry Potter universe!), no-one would "choose" evil. The problem is, everyone thinks they're doing the right thing. That's how wars start.
Oh jeez, another rant. I'd make a good Cardassian, I suppose.
Seconded. I was there, on usenet, where Robert Wolfe would come talk to us (argue with us, basically). Ron Moore was over on another site, arguing about the same thing.
To this day, I don't get it. The only thing that makes any sense of their behavior is that Ira Behr was basically using the character to "get back" at the Nazis. Grind his ax, so to speak. Kinda wierd and late, you might say. But everything he said in interviews during that time re Dukat (and his "ungodly" and "confounding" popularity) megaphoned this fact. And, in some twisted, artistic way, it made sense to me. I can find no other reason for TPTB's reaction to it.