Dukat - Genius or Egocentric Imbecile?
- Thread starter Sisko4Life
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I've always felt--in my personal analysis--that Gul Dukat refused to face the strong feelings that would've come with his natural personality, especially the deep attachments to and care for others. "Joy is vulnerability." Then I assume caring for people is vulnerability too. So he shut himself off from it. (I know you saw the way I represented it in The Desolate Vigil, but I won't spoil that in case anybody decides to read it for themselves. 
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And also, Dukat remarked in Season 6 finale, "I no longer have a need for conquest or power. I'm far beyond all that." He couldn't care less about the outcome of the war, only that he's willing to help Weyoun and Damar if they'll help him with his quest for vengeance against Sisko. Everything's building toward his efforts to release the Pah-Wraiths from the Fire Caves and become the Dark Emperor through them, pardon the Star Wars reference.
This petty quest for vengeance against the Emissary, against the people of Bajor, and against their Prophets is all he has after losing his space station, his empire, and his daughter. So I agree that any chance at redemption went down the drain with all that. He may have been too far gone, which doesn't seem very Star Trek-like, but at least Damar and Winn capitalized on their last chances for redemption in the form of Damar was correcting his old mentor's mistakes and Winn realizing what she had done in helping Dukat, and both laying down their lives in the process.
Wow. You must have been in my head @ Deranged.
Indeed, and more than that. Not only is the pretence of serving Cardassia's needs gone, but Cardassia itself doesn't even seem to register as a meaningful concept. In the finale, when Winn discusses Sisko, she says at one point, "assuming he survives the invasion of Cardassia", to which Dukat assures her "he'll survive". The whole "invasion of Cardassia" reference gets no response at all, not even an acknowledgement that it's no longer important. He isn't sacrificing or discarding anything, or showing any transition in his concerns, he simply isn't responding to it. Winn could have said "assuming he survives his trip to the local co-op store" and it would get the exact same response; complete disinterest. Which I suppose shows that Dukat's concern for Cardassia wasn't truly there to begin with, or at least hadn't been for some time.
To me, Dukat's motive has always been selfish, and while something external can be worn over that selfishness like a cloak - even for a long while if everything goes to plan - the cloak itself doesn't really matter. I see Dukat as a willing slave to himself; he needs and craves his own self-enforcing sense of importance and nobility (as far as his own child-like sense of the noble can carry him). And he surrounds himself with people to reinforce his fantasy - Ziyal the blindly loving "pet" daughter, Damar the lieutenant who is loyal but non-threatening (too unimaginative to take Dukat's place, yet ultimately also more than the "typical" Cardassian military thug - intelligent enough to appreciate Dukat), comfort women who will respond to his "generosity" if only because they know they're trapped and it could be far worse. I think Cardassia itself was just the same, a piece in his fantasy, where all that really mattered was him. If daughters and comfort women and lieutenants fulfilled his need to be the noble, benevolent master (again, to the extent that he understands "noble", which is through the prism of a child-like selfishness), then Cardassia fulfilled his need to be the servant. In his own mind, he's a good son to Cardassia, just as he's a good patriarch to his extended Cardassian/Bajoran community-family. Ultimately, though, he's every bit as disloyal a son as he is an abusive patriarch - both roles are ultimately to fuel his own need to experience a sense of his great worth. The tragedy of Dukat, as I see it, is that he never, ever grasps an opportunity to actually become a better person - and he had many. He always chooses to pretend to himself that's he's great rather than trying to become great. It's as if I wanted to be an athlete but couldn't bring myself to actually train, so I sit back and daydream about it and lie to myself. And Dukat's completely trapped in his own lie. His mind is yoked to his runaway ego.
I’m thinking of how he and Weyoun were always played as "equals"; they're quite similar. But where Weyoun had the Founders, Dukat is his own Founder.
So, I think "concern" for Cardassia was, on the surface, a big part of his thinking while it was useful to Dukat's self-serving (self-consuming) motives, but it was completely discarded afterwards - because he never had any true loyalty to it. Even "the invasion of Cardassia" is just speech, nothing more.
I wonder what went wrong (assuming here that my reading is accepted) to make Dukat so completely obsessive with reinforcing an internalized sense of worth. I sometimes think of him as a rather traumatized little boy in a man's body - he never grew out of the young child's self-centred worldview (too frightened? Sheltering from a harsh world and dedicating himself to inward self-reinforcement to the extent that he shuts out all the stimuli that offer opportunities for growth and so, spiritually speaking, never leaves infanthood? Everything made to conform to his internalized need to reinforce that worth - every value of his culture, good and bad, warped by it, taken on in a completely selfish way that makes him a twisted, delusional idea of a "good Cardassian" who doesn't actually respect or understand the values he's adapting?). And the traumatized selfish little boy in that man's body grows up like so many traumatized selfish little boys to lead war fleets and take power, to make the universe acknowledge his worth - him, at the apex and the centre, his selfish ego stoked by his power and simultaneously his fear sated by the control. For Dukat in Season Six, everything is fully safe and controlled with him at the centre, until the universe crashes down when he loses Terok Nor again, along with Ziyal and (in a way) Damar (the loyal lieutenant can't shoot the pet daughter and I can't lose my war and my empire, that just can't happen!) And Dukat ends up obsessed with taking down Sisko, who is the eldritch abomination that just won't fit and is making the Dukat-verse wrong. Sisko's in Dukat's office, he's got Kira's respect, the Bajorans' respect, a strong, noble military leader, a loving father, victorious in battle - the little boy has encountered, of all things, a rival. And this universe isn't big enough for both of them. And I think ultimately Dukat knows too that he'll lose - because he's just a selfish little boy and Sisko...Sisko is a man. Dukat can only play at those qualities I listed - Sisko truly embodies them. And of course Dukat goes down into the flames, his selfish, immature ego destroying himself in impotent rage as Sisko ascends.
Well, forgive me there, but that's how I see it...
I just watched a good portion of Season 4 this past weekend, and I paid close attention both to Indiscretion and especially Return to Grace.
Moreover, I remember thinking some time ago that the reason Damar ultimately makes a better redeemed character is that it actually bothers him to see his people beaten and broken to such a great extent; whereas Dukat's sense of self is ever tied up in his own need to be validated and "loved" for his OWN, SELF CREATED "greatness". Even the pagh wraiths are ultimately a tool to Dukat's reestablishment of what he imagines about himself. (and Even Garak is shown, in Afterimage, to be truly experiencing guilt and psychic trauma regarding the suffering of Cardassia under the Dominion). This is why Sisko is such an affront to him - he has all of what Dukat belives he is "entitled" to.
I agree that it's ultimately his unwillingness to acknowledge and give due honor to anything greater than his self that makes him such a dangerous and deluded narcissist.
Damar is a whole 'nother analysis.. He seems like more of the oddball Cardassian to me in the sense that him (and Garak) saw what every other portrayed Cardassian in the history of Star Trek failed to - Cardassia's downfall was their own fault as a people and that it was time for a new start. I never doubted Garak's genuwine devotion to Cardassia at all the series. Damar on the other hand you could see redemption blossom before our eyes. I do wonder if some of that was guilt over the mess Dukat made in negotiating the devastating alliance in the first place.
Dukat on the other hand - I don't question his love for Cardassia either I just think it was completely washed out by all the other turmoil in that deluted brain of his. Watching Return to Grace really made it hard for me to say that Dukat was 100% uninterested or too far gone.. because fighting his one ship war was the ONLY time we ever see him humbled and accept that role, even if it was only for one episode (and led to his later malicious acts). However, it was what Dukat did with that situation and his "secret negotiations" that makes him the self-serving mad man that he is.
Do any relaunch novels actually tell the story of his negotiations with the Dominion? I'd love to read it. My only interpretation is that Cardassia was annexed, and Dukat bit at the first sign of him rising to power and that it was a forced military takeover of the Cardassian government...
Dukat on the other hand - I don't question his love for Cardassia either I just think it was completely washed out by all the other turmoil in that deluted brain of his. Watching Return to Grace really made it hard for me to say that Dukat was 100% uninterested or too far gone.. because fighting his one ship war was the ONLY time we ever see him humbled and accept that role, even if it was only for one episode (and led to his later malicious acts). However, it was what Dukat did with that situation and his "secret negotiations" that makes him the self-serving mad man that he is.
Do any relaunch novels actually tell the story of his negotiations with the Dominion? I'd love to read it. My only interpretation is that Cardassia was annexed, and Dukat bit at the first sign of him rising to power and that it was a forced military takeover of the Cardassian government...
This. Garak especially - all that mattered was Cardassia and he was willing to do anything necessary to preserve and strengthen it. Including go into exile, including torture a friend, including attempt genocide. You can say his actions were damning, but like the Operative from Serenity, the actions were done out of love and devotion to the State. Garak would happily burn for eternity if it meant Cardassia was safe and strong.
If the tyranny was safe and strong. Cardassia itself--he didn't give a damn about that, just about its oppressive regime.
I mostly agree with Nerys Ghemor; while I think Kestrel is right to note that Garak's devotion to - and love of - the Cardassian state was genuine, I think we need to distinguish between Cardassia the national government and Cardassia the culture/homeland. Garak may have thought he loved both, but he only served one (his discussions of Cardassian literature, etc, always subordinate the culture to the state - he loves The Never-Ending Sacrifice precisely because it supports the notion that the state wins above all). And I think in the final episode Garak finally understands the mistake. His "no, we're guilty" speech, in which he sees that the Cardassia he thought he loved - the "rich and ancient culture", the "great minds" - has payed the price for the mistakes of the other Cardassia, the one he devoted himself to. I always read his "so much is lost" response as not only a straightforward response to the destruction but a realization that he'd loved blindly without realizing what it was he loved, or thought he loved - and he didn't know what he had until it was gone. He was off the mark.
So I do accept that he probably thought (or convinced himself) that his love for the state was a love for the culture - that all of Cardassia could be rolled up in service to the state (so much of the government propaganda encourages that idea), but he was severely misguided.
So I do accept that he probably thought (or convinced himself) that his love for the state was a love for the culture - that all of Cardassia could be rolled up in service to the state (so much of the government propaganda encourages that idea), but he was severely misguided.
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He loved and was completely devoted to the only Cardassia he knew, the one he thought was true and noble. That doesn't mean he wasn't a supporter of oppression, that doesn't mean he didn't do horrible things, but to pretend he didn't do them out of devotion to Cardassia is a critical mistake. He saw the State and its strength as necessary for the security and prosperity of Cardassia, so in serving the state he truly believed he was serving his people.
That he was misguided is irrelevant. To suggest that he was driven by self-deception, or by anything other than devotion to Cardassia (as he understood it) is a definite misreading of the character.
The only difference between Garak and the Operative from Serenity is that Garak wasn't trying to create a society where people like him wouldn't be necessary.
That he was misguided is irrelevant. To suggest that he was driven by self-deception, or by anything other than devotion to Cardassia (as he understood it) is a definite misreading of the character.
The only difference between Garak and the Operative from Serenity is that Garak wasn't trying to create a society where people like him wouldn't be necessary.
If someone can look at what Cardassia was doing, can look people in the eye and torture them without remorse, then either they are a total psychopath, or they are indeed engaging in self-deception.
Well, modern Cardassians are collectivists. "Serving the people" to them means "serving the greater good of the greater number so long as they're orderly". Citizens are cogs in the collective, and it's society that is protected, not the individuals that society consists of. And the "good" citizen is one who supports the state and its power by default. It's all ultimately about serving the state, not the men and women on the street. And that's what I'm talking about here - there are several "Cardassias" in conflict, while Garak's worldview is the state-encouraged one that there's only one Cardassia, the state, which encompasses, protects, and supports the Cardassian culture(s). The state and the culture are supposed to be so intertwined as to be the same thing. Except we viewers know that this isn't the case - that the Cardassian state oppresses, selectively culls and dominates the culture.
I don't think anyone here is doubting how devoted Garak was to the good of Cardassia, but his being misguided is, I feel, relevant, because his starting point is very different from mine as a viewer. Garak loved Cardassia, and the state was Cardassia to him. That doesn't mean he didn't love the art and literature and architecture and family values, etc, because he did - but like a good Cardassian these were secondary to the state, or yoked in service to the state, and always he would sacrifice them for the state no matter how he appreciated them. And while to him this is serving Cardassia, plain and simple, to a viewer like myself it's not so simple, because I simply don't and can't see Cardassia as he does. I think - how is this really any different from the Cardassian leadership under the Dominion? They insisted joining the Dominion was for the good of Cardassia, and probably meant it and believed it, but really what was happening is that Cardassia the culture, the nation, the people, were made fodder for something else.
Garak hated the Dominion alliance from the start - he saw it quite clearly for what it was. So did Damar, I suspect, hence the drinking. But towards the end, I think they both had to confront the fact that the Dominion and the Cardassian state weren't too disimilar in their treatment of Cardassia - if the Dominion conquered Cardassia without firing a shot, then Central Command had already conquered it long before. Joining the Dominion was an act that mirrored the point when Cardassia turned itself over to Central Command (only more obviously a mistake because the Dominion were outsiders, aliens - this is probably why Garak, etc, so quickly understood the error when they hadn't seen the error in their own defense of the state). And despite what Garak thinks, the Cardassian state is not working for the good of Cardassia, but for its own good at Cardassia's expense. Because the two Cardassias are not the same, although his entire worldview was based on the idea that they were.
Really, while the Dominion was in power, Garak learned what it was like to be one of the underground, to be a Lang or a Ghemor - your culture being crushed and suffocated beneath a brutal regime that claims over and over it's working for the good of your people but really is using them to serve itself.
I say I think Garak was "misguided", and that's because in his contempt for much of Central Command (which I think went beyond any simple Obsidian Order/CC rivalry) he did demonstrate the ability to perceive the difference between the current government and the nation. So he's not a true hypocrite. To his credit, it was always his idea of "Cardassia" that came first, and he was quick to reject or condemn any leader or politician whom he felt was putting their own good ahead of Cardassia's, or whose own ego or foolishness was jeopardizing Cardassia's prosperity. Unfortunately, the model he's evaluating those leaders against is really the same self-serving worldview those Guls and politicians have - self-serving at the expense of the people, only it hides it better and is wrapped up in the insistance that it's actually serving the people.
So yes, Garak was utterly and completely devoted to Cardassia as he understood the concept. It's just that his understanding of Cardassia is one I can't help but view as flawed. So while I agree that Garak loved his Cardassia, his Cardassia is, to me, a lie. And I do think in the end he realized that the culture he loved hadn't been loved at all, because he'd subordinated it to another aspect of Cardassia that he never learnt to see as different, but should have.
Indeed, Garak's final speech always came across to me as a struggle between his desire to keep "his Cardassia" alive and the realization of the mistake. When he says the Cardassia he knew is gone, I think he's dealing with more than one loss there.
There's been at least one person in this thread that's questioned Garak's devotion to the good of Cardassia. I'm not disputing that he supported oppression, I'm not supporting he used evil means, but the idea that Garak puts anything - anything - before Cardassia is just completely wrong. The fact Garak was willing to see a change as the series went on doesn't speak to his being self-serving in the first place, it speaks to the fact that he was always a true Cardassian patriot.
You wanna talk about somebody who epitomizes that believing in something greater than yourself can lead to horrible things, that's Garak. Well, and Dukat, once he found religion.
But I don't care that Garak's view of Cardassia was based on believing that the State = Cardassia, because how would you expect somebody in his position to believe?
Dukat was really unpredictable, just when you thought he might be somewhat "good", he flipped that notion upside down.
In some ways he's a diabolical genius.
He wanted to artificially enlarge the Cardassian Empire by using the Dominion.
I think the Cardassian Empire is usually seen as small and out of the Federation's league, but I don't think this the case.
Cardassia has a strong infrastructure, equipped and disciplined military, among other things.
The only problem is that they had a slower start (poor resources), whereas the other powers had more of a bigger jump start.
If their military might was identical to the Federation's and they had just a little more tech, they would be extremely dangerous and formidable.
That's pretty much what happened when Cardassia joined the Dominion, the only problem was, it wasn't their military.
In some ways he's a diabolical genius.
He wanted to artificially enlarge the Cardassian Empire by using the Dominion.
I think the Cardassian Empire is usually seen as small and out of the Federation's league, but I don't think this the case.
Cardassia has a strong infrastructure, equipped and disciplined military, among other things.
The only problem is that they had a slower start (poor resources), whereas the other powers had more of a bigger jump start.
If their military might was identical to the Federation's and they had just a little more tech, they would be extremely dangerous and formidable.
That's pretty much what happened when Cardassia joined the Dominion, the only problem was, it wasn't their military.
You tend to think of people who oversee the brutal occupation and mass murder of foreign cultures as great leaders?
If they're charming, good looking (for a reptile-man), have good taste, are refined/cultured and the really horrible stuff done all happened off-screen and we never see it?
Yes, people can be fooled into thinking that such people are "great" instead of the brutal bastards they are.
Yes, people can be fooled into thinking that such people are "great" instead of the brutal bastards they are.
Yeah...it's called the "Draco In Leather Pants" phenomenon. 
(You can search for it on TVTropes...but I am not responsible for the 2-hour bender on that site that will follow.)
(You can search for it on TVTropes...but I am not responsible for the 2-hour bender on that site that will follow.)
I'll take "Egocentric Imbecile" for 500, Alex.
Yeah...it's called the "Draco In Leather Pants" phenomenon.
Trust me, I'm quite familiar with the place and do my best to remain in total control when viewing.
I have to say I was too suffered from the DiLP thing: I thought Khal Drogo from "Game of Thrones" was awesome in his war speech:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-6_WRDROdM
I showed it to a friend and I got "Raping women and taking kids as slaves? This sicko is the main villain right?"
Opened my eyes, truly it did.
If you want to put it that way.. mainly I take it for what it is. Dukat was a charismatic and competent leader. The Dominion had all its greatest victories under Dukat's leadership and it obviously wasn't the same when he left. Weyoun had no knowledge of military strategy and Damar was hardly a leader.
Dukat's role as a leader draws striking similarities to Hitler.. crazy deluded views, gross mental instability, but somehow skillful enough tactically and charismatic enough to resurrect his people from a downtrodden state. But I'm not about to sit up here and say because they were responsible for mass murder that they were not militarily sound. Facts are facts, Dukat was minutes away from overruning the Alpha Quadrant and Hitler was one Russian Winter away from conquering all of mainland Europe. You don't just roll out of bed and do that...
But I never said Duka was a great PERSON. I simply said great LEADER.
^ Couple problems there. It was under Dukat's leadership that DS9 fell back to the Federation, and it was under Damar's that the Dominion conquered Betazed and the Jack Pack were predicting complete defeat for the Federation.
Also, Hitler was definitely not tactically/militarily sound. I've heard suggestions that without Hitler's meddling, the Wehrmacht would actually have performed better.
Also, Hitler was definitely not tactically/militarily sound. I've heard suggestions that without Hitler's meddling, the Wehrmacht would actually have performed better.