Spoilers DTI: Forgotten History by C. L. Bennett Review Thread

[RPJOB]

It's true that Spock might consider what did as murder no competent court would convict him. In the eyes of the law he did nothing wrong. Seeing as he had just emerged from Plak Tow and thought he had killed Kirk, his opinions would be suspect at best. His emotional reaction to seeing Kirk alive also shows that he was not in his usual mental state. He might have presented himself at a Starbase but, assuming the JAG office is doing their job, no charges would be filed. He wouldn't offer a defence because none would be necessary. He may feel guilt for killing Kirk but he had no reason to consider it murder.

 

[CommodoreNero]

Bought, read and enjoyed as always, Christopher, thank you!

Any more DTI novels on the horizon? I'd love to see more from Jena Noi and Ducane. Oh, and totally aside, may I ask why you wrote Ducane so adversarially (Not a word, but go with me) in WTC?

 

[Christopher]

Any more DTI novels on the horizon?

Not at the moment. I did two in a row and I'd like to try something else. And doing a third would probably be predicated on strong sales for the second, so it's too early to tell if it'll even be an option.

Oh, and totally aside, may I ask why you wrote Ducane so adversarially (Not a word, but go with me) in WTC?

It's a perfectly valid word. As for Ducane, I was just going with what Voyager showed about the policies of the Temporal Integrity Commission. In "Future's End," they were willing to destroy an entire starship based on an unproven suspicion that it was the cause of a disaster -- not even bothering to investigate first, just charging in guns blazing. And in "Relativity," Ducane arrested the "present" version of Braxton for the crimes of his future self -- punishing a completely innocent man for something he not only hadn't conceived of doing yet, but would be prevented from ever doing at all. That's horrifically unethical, a profound violation of the most fundamental principles of justice. Those told me that the Federation of the TIC's era had lost track of its core values and become a more oppressive state.

Besides, Ducane was just kind of smarmy. There was something shifty and mean about him, and in the context of the above, it made sense to play that up.

Even aside from all that, I think it was a good idea just for variety's sake. It wouldn't have been as interesting if all the uptime agents were nice people with compatible agendas. It was more fun to have the agents from different eras constantly bickering and clashing. And it was worth touching on the idea that societies sometimes lose touch with their ideals and go through dark periods. We can't assume the Federation will remain benevolent forever.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

In "Future's End," they were willing to destroy an entire starship based on an unproven suspicion that it was the cause of a disaster -- not even bothering to investigate first, just charging in guns blazing.

To be fair that was likely "the Sol system was just destroyed/possibly traumatized from it" Braxton. when the other version showed up he didn't seem that bad.

 

[Christopher]

I'm speaking of the overall impression that I formed from both episodes. If it had just been "Future's End" by itself, that rationalization could work, but if you take that together with what Ducane did in "Relativity," it suggests a pattern of "guilty until proven innocent" thinking. And I wanted to explore the implications of that possibility.

 

[BrotherBenny]

Bought it. Read it. Enjoyed it.

The CLB Trifecta.

I love how you made the book feel, to me, like a TNG era, TMP era, MyrU novel all in one and keeping it all cohesive. I loved every aspect of the book, from Lucsly giving Kirk the means to save the future history (pre-destination paradox?) to the Klingon-Andorian Compact and T'Pring finding the Kir'Shara, from the timeships themselves to founding of the DTI.

Everything gelled for me, and I agree with others' sentiments that a third DTI novel would be nice, but when the time is right (no pun intended).

I would also like to see another return to the TMP era or Titan.

 

[JoeZhang]

It's a perfectly valid word. As for Ducane, I was just going with what Voyager showed about the policies of the Temporal Integrity Commission. In "Future's End," they were willing to destroy an entire starship based on an unproven suspicion that it was the cause of a disaster -- not even bothering to investigate first, just charging in guns blazing. And in "Relativity," Ducane arrested the "present" version of Braxton for the crimes of his future self -- punishing a completely innocent man for something he not only hadn't conceived of doing yet, but would be prevented from ever doing at all. That's horrifically unethical, a profound violation of the most fundamental principles of justice. Those told me that the Federation of the TIC's era had lost track of its core values and become a more oppressive state.

Besides, Ducane was just kind of smarmy. There was something shifty and mean about him, and in the context of the above, it made sense to play that up.

Even aside from all that, I think it was a good idea just for variety's sake. It wouldn't have been as interesting if all the uptime agents were nice people with compatible agendas. It was more fun to have the agents from different eras constantly bickering and clashing. And it was worth touching on the idea that societies sometimes lose touch with their ideals and go through dark periods. We can't assume the Federation will remain benevolent forever.

Didn't someone once write a book that touched upon this idea more explicitly? Where the TOS Crew find out that the Federation becomes a fascist state.

Em... Crossroad?

 

[RTOlson]

Kudos for exploring Spock's pon farr and his relationship with T'Pring and the fall-out of "Amok Time". If nothing else, you've removed the need to consider Triangle in continuity because, unless I'm mistaken, that dealt with Spock's pon farr in the same time period.

I'd hardly say it was necessary to have Triangle in continuity. After all, there are presumably multiple other unexplained pon farrs in Spock's life that haven't been chronicled.

Not to be crude about it, but I'm sure fanfic authors have analyzed Spock's pon farrs countless times from a myriad of angles. IDIC.

I've read the book twice now and enjoyed it. Personally, it didn't have quite the same zip as the first DTI novel, but it was a fun voyage tying up the temporal adventures depicted in "The Original Series." It was also nice to visit the era around the end of the primary five-year mission and "The Motion Picture."

Thanks very much. I look forward to your next work.

 

[Christopher]

I love how you made the book feel, to me, like a TNG era, TMP era, MyrU novel all in one and keeping it all cohesive.

Thanks! And yes, you pegged it. I not only used this as my chance to do the TAS-focused novel I've been wanting to do and the post-TMP followup I've been wanting to do -- I also seized the opportunity to do a "stealth" Myriad Universes tale (although not the specific one I've been wanting to do).

Didn't someone once write a book that touched upon this idea more explicitly? Where the TOS Crew find out that the Federation becomes a fascist state.

Em... Crossroad?

I believe so, and that may have been an influence on my thinking. Well, that and my general awareness of historical cycles. Not to mention that the events of the past decade in the United States make it worth reminding people that even the noblest of societies can lose touch with their ethics if they're not careful.

Not to be crude about it, but I'm sure fanfic authors have analyzed Spock's pon farrs countless times from a myriad of angles. IDIC.

But in the years since Ex Machina, as I've given thought to what I'd do if I got to continue forward from there, this particular pon farr loomed large, since it pretty much had to be within a year of TMP/ExM. That and Spock's mentoring of Saavik (which prior books had also established as taking place around this time) -- as well as what the Enterprise crew did while Spock was away for so long -- were the main story points that stood out as the most important things to address in a new post-TMP novel.

 

[UncleRogi]

I'd hardly say "Amok Time" was a tragedy for Spock, or even a missed opportunity. On the contrary, it was more like a dodged bullet. He was much better off not marrying T'Pring. She was a cold, manipulative person who attempted to turn Spock into a murderer just so she could keep screwing her preferred boy toy -- which, by her own admission, she would've kept on doing anyway even if she had married Spock.

How T'Pring manipulated Spock was a horrible thing but Spock would not have committed murder and thus not been a murderer. Murder is specifically the unlawful, premeditated killing of another human being. Assuming that Vulcans would be considered humans for the sake of the law you could argue that Spock could not have committed a premeditated act in his mental state. However, the fact that koon-ut-kal-if-fee is a rarely used but still legal challenge, any death resulting from it would not be murder. We may consider it to be but the act happened on Vulcan and wes conducted under Vulcan laws.

A case could be made for prosecuting McCoy for fraud however.

T'Pring is just BEAUTIFUL!!...and both are in Pon Farr?

Spock learned something from Jim...SHOOT first, then ask questions!

 

[Stoek]

Overall I enjoyed the book very much. I will admit that I was expecting a bit more of a presence from the "present day" DTI members, but I certainly did not feel the book was lacking in anyway. I am especially something of a Geek for books that fill in blanks in Trek history or connect dots. Seeing the mission to the past that led to them meeting with Gary 7 as a logical outgrowth of their previous accidental trip was one of those lovely "Well of course, why didn't I think of it before" moments.

There was one thing that I found a little disturbing personally...

But one thing Lucsly knew: uncertainty could be fatal for a DTI agent. Maybe that was the value of the myths that had grown up around the department's origins: they replaced messy reality with clear, inspiring messages. Just as the myth of Meijan Grey motivated Lucsly and his fellow agents to guard the timeline with quiet, solemn discipline, so the myth of James T. Kirk served as a cautionary tale, reminding them of what was at stake if they ever relaxed their scrutiny.

"Trust Kirk?' he finally said, "Not a chance. The man was a menace. I had to use all my training and control to avoid revealing any unnecessary information about the future. If I hadn't ridden tight herd on him every step of the way, we would've all been doomed. In fact, I wonder just how many other temporal crimes Kirk managed to keep out of the history books..."

While I certain appreciate the value of mythology Lucsly seems to go beyond merely acknowledging it's value into the realm or repudiating accepting the fact that there are deeper realities that go beyond and often contradict mythology because he is unable or unwilling to deal with the inherent complexities.

While uncertainty might be fatal in certain context for a DTI agent, too much certainty leads to fascism which in my observation is fatal for all concerned. It leads to things like walking down a row of peacefully sitting protesters and pepper spraying them. It leads to raids on the homes of citizens for the "crime" of daring to speak out against actions taken by their government that they believe to be wrong.

My hope is that if we get a chance to see Agent Lucsly again in the future that he might be forced to confront the inherent danger in too simplistic a worldview and to realize the tragic consequences it can bring about.

 

[Christopher]

I didn't entirely agree with Lucsly's conclusions myself, but I think you're giving him too little credit, and mistaking what he tells others for what he truly believes himself. Just because he lets his fellow agents preserve the myths that motivate them to do their jobs doesn't mean he's burying his own improved understanding. And it's not as if most DTI agents would ever have any opportunity to confront Kirk directly, so it's a remote enough myth that it shouldn't really compromise any DTI agent's ability to grasp the truth about whatever situations they do find themselves dealing with.

Besides, if even the inflexible Lucsly could change his mind about Kirk after less than an hour watching and interacting with the man, then surely other DTI agents could do the same.

 

[Mike Winters]

StarTrek.com sadly doesn't stream to Germany, and Netflix isn't available at all.

I'm actually somewhat curious as to why I've never watched it, though. After all, I've seen every other episode in the franchise at least three times (and that's definitely the low-low-lower bound ...). Maybe it never aired in Germany while I was growing up? Though that doesn't explain why I never sought it out later ...

Ah well, maybe Forgotten History is the kick in the butt I needed. To stay on topic: Since Watching the Clock is the only 2011 release I read in 2011 (because I'm so far behind everyone in all the series, and the description made it seem fairly stand-alone initially) I'm really looking forward to reading this one, since it's likely to be also the only 2012 release I read in 2012. Basically, DTI is my lifeline to the TrekLit frontier right now.

Sho,

Not sure how old you are, but I am 33 and in my lifetime, I have no recollection of TAS ever being aired on tv, even in re-runs. Whereas all other shows are re-shown somewhere every day.

I have seen very little of TAS. Still finding time to watch it on startrek.com.

Mike

 

[Christopher]

I discovered the animated series during its initial run on NBC, but I have caught it in syndication at various times in later years. I think the network then called The Sci-Fi Channel aired it for a while, back in the days when cable channels aired mostly reruns, although I think it was before I actually got that channel. That was rather less than 30 years ago. But it was a fair while ago.

 

[JoeZhang]

I'm not sure it was ever shown in the UK, if it was I have no recollection of it (I'm 36).

 

[DimesDan]

I'm not sure it was ever shown in the UK, if it was I have no recollection of it (I'm 36).

I'm eight years younger and it was shown on Saturday or Sunday mornings on BBC2 way back when.

 

[Therin of Andor]

I discovered the animated series during its initial run on NBC, but I have caught it in syndication at various times in later years.

In Australia, we got TAS first-run on Saturday mornings in glorious b/w, then several repeats "in full colour" when weekday breakfast TV really took off in the late 70s. For a long time, "Mr. Spock's Time Trek" from View-Master (21 "Yesteryear" images in 3D) was my only tangible proof that the animateds existed. Bjo Trimble's "ST Concordance" entries were highly valued.

Western Australia got another run when video recorders had become common, and so a few people in Perth staved off our rememberings back east with grainy crosstapes of crosstapes of crosstapes.

Then, TAS even came back to Saturday mornings in the 90s, when TNG was at its height of popularity, probably just after the dust had settled on rights ownership after the Filmation closure in 1989.

 

[BrotherBenny]

I'm not sure it was ever shown in the UK, if it was I have no recollection of it (I'm 36).

I'm eight years younger and it was shown on Saturday or Sunday mornings on BBC2 way back when.

That's when I caught it too. Isn't it available on DVD/BluRay now?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ TAS is available on DVD but not Blu-Ray.

(If there are any technical issues that would *prevent* a BR release, I'm not aware of them. I don't think any 'remastering' would be required.)

 

[Christopher]

(If there are any technical issues that would *prevent* a BR release, I'm not aware of them. I don't think any 'remastering' would be required.)

Well, despite how the term has come to be misunderstood and abused, remastering simply means going back to the original master footage and printing directly from that for maximum quality and authenticity, rather than making a copy of a copy. Most DVD or Blu-Ray releases are digitally remastered as a matter of course these days.

If you're talking about whether TAS has the necessary resolution for Blu-Ray, it was shot on film, which is automatically high-definition. But an HD presentation might make some of the imperfections in the artwork, scratches on the cels, etc. easier to see.