Spoilers DTI: Forgotten History by C. L. Bennett Review Thread

[Christopher]

^In fact, the Yangs never said anything about how old the documents are. Cloud William only talked about "the holy words," not "the ancient holy words" or "the traditions handed down from ancient times" or anything like that. Nothing whatsoever was said about the age of their traditions or texts. Viewers have just assumed that the traditions were ancient, because that's what people usually assume about other cultures' traditions. I learned in my college history studies that this is a common mistake even among anthropologists -- assuming that a culture's customs and traditions at the time of contact are unchanged since antiquity. In reality, every culture is dynamic and evolving, and traditions and beliefs change from generation to generation. Even those groups that claim their beliefs represent ancient tradition may be interpreting those traditions in a way the ancients wouldn't have recognized.

 

[diankra]

Or to put it another way... without independent evidence, anything which predates anyone you've talked to (like your grandparents) could be very old or fairly new when they first heard about it. And that assumes their recollections are accurate.

 

[Nyotarules]

Bought this yesterday, so far really enjoying this, Commodore Delgado seems obsessed. I'm on the chapter where Gary Seven shows up.

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

I liked this much better than Watching the Clock. Too much Deltan/Deltan-related angst in that one.

 

[Nyotarules]

I don't understand Lucsly's obsession with Grey, he never met so why put her on this pedestal?

 

[Christopher]

I don't understand Lucsly's obsession with Grey, he never met so why put her on this pedestal?

She was the first director of the agency to which he's devoted his life, the embodiment of his beliefs and values. The fact that he never met her is why he sees her as an idealized figure, just like Americans see George Washington as an idealized figure. It's the flipside of why he sees Kirk as a demonized caricature. We generally don't see the nuances and gray areas in people until we meet them and get to see them in action.

 

[Nyotarules]

^ But he still insisted on seeing Kirk as the devil

Spoiler

even when he met him!

 

[Christopher]

^ But he still insisted on seeing Kirk as the devil

Spoiler

even when he met him!

I think you need to re-read that part more carefully.

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

It's hard to let go of your pet hate, especially when it's largely responsible for your success and has made you who you are.

 

[Nyotarules]

^Sad , but true

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

I don't understand Lucsly's obsession with Grey, he never met so why put her on this pedestal?

We need to remember that people are people. They're not perfect. It's his own imperfections that cause him to deny hers.

 

[Christopher]

It's hard to let go of your pet hate, especially when it's largely responsible for your success and has made you who you are.

That's not what I was going for. Lucsly did gain a more nuanced understanding of the real Kirk, but he decided that the myth of Kirk as anathema, as a symbol of the things the DTI worked to counter, was still useful for motivating the DTI's personnel, in the same way that the myth of Meijan Grey was still worth upholding for the same purpose even though the reality was more ambiguous. That's part of what the book's title means. The way we choose to remember history is generally more about what we need it to mean to us rather than the way it actually was, so we selectively forget the messier parts of it. History literally means story -- it's the narrative we create to define the past to ourselves. So it's always filtered through our own needs and viewpoints, which makes it as much about the present as it is about the past.

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

Ah, you mean everybody needs something to fight against, and giving it a name helps.

 

[Nyotarules]

But I don't get the impression thus far that his colleagues need these myths, even Dulmur is willing to consider all its not what it seems. I think its just Lucsly who needs them, since his job seems to be all he has in his life. (Although I hold my hands up, I have not read Watching the clock yet but its in my kindle!)

 

[kktwin]

Just finished up. Already onto the next!
This is TrekLit

 

[Mizrach]

Another great book by Mr. Bennet, for me he is steadily rising as the third pinnacle of Post-Nemesis TrekLit with Beyer and Mack. This one has more intelligent depth than the average Trek book/episode. Overall the DTI books are the most consistent after Voyager's. Now I'm intrigued to see Bennett works on Post-ENT

 

[Charles Phipps]

That's not what I was going for. Lucsly did gain a more nuanced understanding of the real Kirk, but he decided that the myth of Kirk as anathema, as a symbol of the things the DTI worked to counter, was still useful for motivating the DTI's personnel, in the same way that the myth of Meijan Grey was still worth upholding for the same purpose even though the reality was more ambiguous. That's part of what the book's title means. The way we choose to remember history is generally more about what we need it to mean to us rather than the way it actually was, so we selectively forget the messier parts of it. History literally means story -- it's the narrative we create to define the past to ourselves. So it's always filtered through our own needs and viewpoints, which makes it as much about the present as it is about the past.

My interpretation of Lucsly is also that his and the time agents of the 23rd century are just flat out WRONG about the universe and how it works timeline wise. I like how you presented it in Watching the Clock with the fact Star Trek: Destiny only ends the way it does because of deliberate temporal shenanigans being preserved and the statements by the future that they're "Puritanical" in the past. There's no "natural" timeline because time travel is an integral part of how the Federation and many other cultures exist and always exist.

Kirk helped invent time travel and Meijan did too with good and bad consequences. Mind you, I do think Lucsly's hatred of Kirk was always meant to be DRAMATICALLY IRONIC as once you get past the "joke" of him being a menace in Troubles and Tribbulations, Kirk allowed the woman he loved to die in order to see history restored.

What time agent has sacrificed more?

I will say, I really liked the episode showing a alternate universe without the human race or Spock and how it might develop. I also love how its' SPOCK who doesn't mind interfering with the development of the other universe with his "hints" regarding the original teachings of Surak. I also enjoy Spock as the ladies man, which I've always been entertained by as it was great in The Enterprise Incident.