DSC and the "No Conflict" Rule

[Ovation]

Yeah I am all for conflicts, as long as it doesn't come at the expense of equally strong, positive relationships between crewmembers.
But I love the idea of using Discovery as a model of civil discourse between opposing ideologies. Nothing could be more relevant or important in this age. If every episode has an extended roundtable discussion with everyone's opposing opinions analysed and rationally discussed and respected, I will love this show no matter what else they do.

You may love it, but you'll have precious little of it--wouldn't make it past episode 5. There is a reason the maxim "show, don't tell" exists.

 

[DamarsKanar]

You may love it, but you'll have precious little of it--wouldn't make it past episode 5. There is a reason the maxim "show, don't tell" exists.

But you can 'show' dialogue. As in, many excellent films and television series have created fascinating, character-driven, intellectually stimulating drama out of dialogue-heavy scenes. But you get this less often in sci-fi and it would be great to have more of that in Star Trek. Because TNG set a pretty damn good precedent for that and I feel Discovery should try to incorporate at least some of that into the show, otherwise it could end up another generic action show (not that I don't love action, but Star Trek needs to distinguish itself some way and I don't think action will ever be that way).

 

[Mudd]

I think the point is that the difference between Lokai and Bele was so minor and superficial that Our Heroes didn't even notice that there was a difference between them.

I personally think -- because of its simplicity -- this was a significant enough plot point on its own, and it didn't require any heavier-handed treatise on the specifics of racism.

The point of the story was to draw a false moral and logical equivalence between the use of violence to oppress people and the use of force to resist oppression.

This was a thing in the late 1960s as, in the U.S. "black militants" were making Good White Liberals nervous.

You're right that the point of the black/white or white/black thing was to trivialize the difference between Lokai's and Bele's positions - to create, for story purposes, a moral symmetry between the slave and the slaveowner, the oppressor and the oppressed that does not in fact exist.

Pretty superficial and repulsive.

 

[Shalashaska]

DS9 had conflict the same way TNG did.

No real conflict among Starfleet personnel, more conflict among Starfleet and other alien races. DS9 just had more aliens to play around with than TNG.

I think they're right to go back to the old TOS way of doing things, which is "humans are not and never will be perfect, or fully tolerant of one another".

 

[MakeshiftPython]

My main issue with a lot of TNG was that the Federation became hypocritical. In TOS Kirk has a line when talking about the differences between the Federation and the Klingon Empire in TOS - "Friday's Child". In speaking the the leader of the Capellan Tribes Kirk states: "Your world is yours, and will remain yours.." and I always took that to mean: "The Federation will not tell you how to run your world, govern your people or tell you your culture is 'wrong'.

There were many examples too, of member worlds whose cultures WERE very different from Earth - and yet they were full Fedration member worlds. There was the people of the cloud city Stratos (TOS - "The Cloud Minders"). They used torture and had the death penalty, and whie Kirk and Co. didn't like that - again they conceded it was their world; and the ONLY reason Kirk interfered was to make sure they kept their obligation to another member world in crisis.

Contrast that with how TNG treats Worf and Klingon culture EVERYTIME he does something that's not Federation politicaly correct. The one I really recall (and really felt Picard was a ^%$#! hypocrite for - was when he dressed down Worf for following Klingon tradition in challenging and killing Duras for mursdering the mother of Worf's son - Ambassador Kehleyr. Hell, even the somewhat cowardly Duras AGREED TO THE DUEL because it WAS a valid claim under Klingon law and culture.

But yeah, as soon as Worf returns - he gets dressed down and lectured by Picard:

PICARD: Mister Worf, your service aboard the Enterprise has been exemplary. Until now.
^^^
(Of course this wasn't the first time Picard dressed down Worf for following Klingon heritage, but hey Picard's old. )

WORF: Sir, I have acted within the boundaries of Klingon law and tradition.

PICARD: The High Council would seem to agree. They consider the matter closed. I don't. Mister Worf, the Enterprise crew currently includes representatives from thirteen planets. They each have their individual beliefs and values and I respect them all. But they have all chosen to serve Star Fleet. If anyone cannot perform his or her duty because of the demands of their society, they should resign. Do you wish to resign?
^^^
(Yep - in the TNG era if your culture doesn't conform to the human culture of the Federation and you're not willing to subvert your personal beliefs, you can't be in Star Fleet? WTF?)

WORF: No, sir.

PICARD: I had hoped you would not throw away a promising career. I understand your loss, We all admired K'Ehleyr. A reprimand will appear on your record...
^^^
(For what? Following Klingon law and Klingon cultural norms? <--- How enlightened/tolorant and 'non-interfereing the Federation is in the 24th century)

Picard (continued): Dismissed. Mister Worf, isn't it time for the truth about your father's innocence to be told? After all, you only accepted this dishonor to protect the name of Duras and hold the Empire together. Now that he has died in disgrace, what is gained by further silence?

WORF: Each member of the Klingon High Council has shared in that lie. They will not be so willing to admit their own dishonor. But the day will come when my brother and I will convince them to speak the truth.
^^^^
This was another issue I had with GR's retcon of the Federation for the 24th century. They went from being tolerant of any world's culture to - hey, the Human cultural norms of the Federation are the best and if you're an existing member world (or now want to join) you MUST conform...you will be assimilated...oh. wait....

I think you're misreading that scene. There's a big difference. Kirk was talking about a world being a member of the Federation and being free to run its own affairs, while Picard was specifically talking about serving Starfleet. Worf had obligations to duty. Had he done what he did when he was off duty Starfleet wouldn't have an issue. Worf went off on his own accord when he was supposed to be on the job. That's the issue Picard was having with Worf at that moment.

 

[CorporalClegg]

There's a huge difference between "no conflict" and everyone's a fucking asshole.