DS9: The Soul Key by Olivia Woods Review Thread (Spoilers!)
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Re: The Soul Key Discussion Thread <Spoilers>
Since this is a spoiler tag free thread, I shall repost my review from the other thread:
Overall I think I was....underwhelmed is probably the word. I suppose I had built up quite an anticipation about this book and in the end, it didnt meet it. That is not to say it was a bad book, because it wasnt, it was perfectly fine, and in parts even good, just didnt hit all the highs I had thought it might.
The insights to the mirror universe and how the Klingon/Cardassian alliance was run (ie the two powers allied, but not actually joined, competeing for dominance within the alliance, it was said/implied that each power has times when they are in the ascendancy and times when they are on the back foot compared to the other, with usually Bajor being the swing vote. Dukat running Cardassia, Lang head of the Obsidian Order, Martok the Klingons - maybe all that was mentioned previously, I dont recall) were interesting enough, though how anyone trusts the mirror Kira when she kills her "allies" left and right is something I have never understood.
I was surprised, I thought Vaughan might become the Emmisary in the mirror universe, it never occured to me that the Ghemor of the mirror universe would become it, I had thought Vaughan had been sent there by Sisko for such a high purpose, but all he really does is meet his opposite, and kill him (he was dying anyway, a very old man in a universe where terrans just dont live that long), and it was the only way to get his mirror daughter to evacuate with the others.
This does lead me to a gripe I have about the mirror universe as a whole though. How, despite completely different events have shaped the universe over time, to be something entirely different from the normal one, people who exist in the normal one, also exist in the mirror one, near enough exactly the same just slightly tweaked from their circumstances, so their parents and grandparents and great grandparents etc... still managed to find each other and have kids and raised them to be roughly the same people at their core etc etc..
Yes I realise it is a conceit to have the series regulars on tv play their characters in different ways, and that is fine enough for the tv series, but I dont think it works as well in the written word. - It stuck out to me most with Mirror Vaughan. One of the "last generation of imperial terrans" who had been sold into slavery on Bajor and yet he had still conveniently met the same woman he was married to in the normal universe and had a daughter just like the one he has in the normal one too. I find the mirror universe stretches credulity a bit too far for me, especially when not distracted by the novelty of actually seeing the actors portray the character in a different manner than normal on screen.
Dax (one of my favourite characters) wasnt in it too much, but she did rock as always when commanding the Defiant near the end. Pretty cool to read her early command years as it were and see her say she is debating leaving the station for another posting at some point, when you know in a few years she will be a captain of high standing and whooping ass.
Taran'atar leaving at the end was shame, I liked him being on the station.
The epilogue showing the gathering of the Ascendant forces and the Ghemor/Kira person from the nomal universe becoming their leader/emmisary whatever it was, was cool. I am looking forward to this arc.
Decent book, though as I said, something about it underwhelmed me, and I still cant put my finger on it. - Having thought on it some more since my original review, I think the aspect that underwhelmed me the most was who the Emmisary of the Mirror Universe turned out to be. I expected it to be, and even looked forward to it being Vaughan from the normal universe, and when it wasnt, and it was some mirror cardassian woman who I didnt care that much about, it disappointed me.
Since this is a spoiler tag free thread, I shall repost my review from the other thread:
Overall I think I was....underwhelmed is probably the word. I suppose I had built up quite an anticipation about this book and in the end, it didnt meet it. That is not to say it was a bad book, because it wasnt, it was perfectly fine, and in parts even good, just didnt hit all the highs I had thought it might.
The insights to the mirror universe and how the Klingon/Cardassian alliance was run (ie the two powers allied, but not actually joined, competeing for dominance within the alliance, it was said/implied that each power has times when they are in the ascendancy and times when they are on the back foot compared to the other, with usually Bajor being the swing vote. Dukat running Cardassia, Lang head of the Obsidian Order, Martok the Klingons - maybe all that was mentioned previously, I dont recall) were interesting enough, though how anyone trusts the mirror Kira when she kills her "allies" left and right is something I have never understood.
I was surprised, I thought Vaughan might become the Emmisary in the mirror universe, it never occured to me that the Ghemor of the mirror universe would become it, I had thought Vaughan had been sent there by Sisko for such a high purpose, but all he really does is meet his opposite, and kill him (he was dying anyway, a very old man in a universe where terrans just dont live that long), and it was the only way to get his mirror daughter to evacuate with the others.
This does lead me to a gripe I have about the mirror universe as a whole though. How, despite completely different events have shaped the universe over time, to be something entirely different from the normal one, people who exist in the normal one, also exist in the mirror one, near enough exactly the same just slightly tweaked from their circumstances, so their parents and grandparents and great grandparents etc... still managed to find each other and have kids and raised them to be roughly the same people at their core etc etc..
Yes I realise it is a conceit to have the series regulars on tv play their characters in different ways, and that is fine enough for the tv series, but I dont think it works as well in the written word. - It stuck out to me most with Mirror Vaughan. One of the "last generation of imperial terrans" who had been sold into slavery on Bajor and yet he had still conveniently met the same woman he was married to in the normal universe and had a daughter just like the one he has in the normal one too. I find the mirror universe stretches credulity a bit too far for me, especially when not distracted by the novelty of actually seeing the actors portray the character in a different manner than normal on screen.
Dax (one of my favourite characters) wasnt in it too much, but she did rock as always when commanding the Defiant near the end. Pretty cool to read her early command years as it were and see her say she is debating leaving the station for another posting at some point, when you know in a few years she will be a captain of high standing and whooping ass.
Taran'atar leaving at the end was shame, I liked him being on the station.
The epilogue showing the gathering of the Ascendant forces and the Ghemor/Kira person from the nomal universe becoming their leader/emmisary whatever it was, was cool. I am looking forward to this arc.
Decent book, though as I said, something about it underwhelmed me, and I still cant put my finger on it. - Having thought on it some more since my original review, I think the aspect that underwhelmed me the most was who the Emmisary of the Mirror Universe turned out to be. I expected it to be, and even looked forward to it being Vaughan from the normal universe, and when it wasnt, and it was some mirror cardassian woman who I didnt care that much about, it disappointed me.
Re: The Soul Key Discussion Thread <Spoilers>
Reposting my review from the other thread:
A MAJOR step up from the disappointment that was 'Fearful Symmetry', 'The Soul Key' wraps up the loose ends from the three-book arc that began in 'Warpath'.
The novel spends a good amount of time with flashbacks, sometimes jumping backwards at a key point in the narrative. This wasn't too dissimilar from the way that 'Full Circle' was written, but the technique was used much less frequently than in FC.
Overall, I felt like the book did a good job dealing with the various motivations of the different characters, especially those in the Mirror Universe. I would say about 60-70% of the book or more takes place in the MU, with all of the major events taking place there.
The first several chapters of the book focus on explaining where the deranged Iliana Ghemor was during various events from 'Warpath' and 'Fearful Symmetry'. It also lays out her plan in full, which in turn shows how mentally broken she really was. Her plan reminded me a lot of the movie/TV show 'Highlander', and the movie 'The One' (which is even more appropriate).
I have to give the author credit for including even a little bit about the MU's Luther Sloan, who thinks almost the same as his counterpart in our universe. The other MU characters came off just as they did in the recent MU collection 'Shards and Shadows', and the events of that collection are continued perfectly without any discrepancies. Kudos to the author for keeping the MU's continuity flowing. We find out more about the Alliance's political structure, and see what the MU versions of several familiar characters from DS9 are like (Winn, Opaka, Vaughn, Dukat, Natima Lang, etc.). The 'Vulcan Underground' storyline that had gone through all of the MU stories previously is continued. We also learn about the Bajoran movement to expel Alliance sympathizers from their world, and restore the traditional Bajoran belief system to something closer to our universe's Bajor. The story ends with the possibility that Bajor will now remove itself from the Alliance, since the new Emmisary (MU Iliana Ghemor) has now arrived. Judging from what we learned in this book about how Bajor frequently kept the Klingons and Cardassians together, this could spell the beginning of the end for the Alliance.
I found one storyline very confusing, and parts of it seemed to hint at something bigger. At the end of the last novel, Ben Sisko sent Vaughn on a mission to the MU, where he was tasked with finding the MU Ben Sisko, who he claimed was still alive, and not actually dead as we had seen during the TV series. Oddly, Vaughn arrives in the MU to find that the MU Ben Sisko is indeed dead, and that Sisko lied to him. It turns out that for some reason Sisko wanted Vaughn to meet his dying counterpart, who Vaughn ends up mercy killing so that he is not captured by the Alliance. There is also some discussion that our universe's Vaughn was supposed to be the MU's Emmisary, although this was somewhat vague. This sideplot ends with Vaughn slugging Sisko for lying to him, and saying that he was letting the Prophets control too much of his life.
Our universe's Iliana Ghemor has most of the spotlight in this book, as she rightly should. Because of the memory transfer described in 'Fearful Symmetry' not being fully completed, her mind is divided between her own memories, and those of Kira Nerys. She decides that she wants to fully BECOME Kira Nerys, first by killing Intendant Kira and taking her place, and then trying to kill our Kira later. She even gets the idea of using the paghvaram (the Bajoran word for the 'Soul Key' bracelet that contains the shard of the MU Orbs) to travel to other alternate universes in order to kill the Kiras in those universes. The part of her mind that still has some good in it allows her to reunite the MU version of her fiancee and the Bajoran woman he loves, and allow them to escape Mirror Terok Nor. This is at the same time where she is willing to kill everyone else on the station so that she can enter the Wormhole. So this particular villain has an unpredictability that makes her more three-dimensional than some other ST villains in the past.
Except for Vaughn and Kira, the rest of the DS9 crew has almost nothing to do in this book, except to show up as the cavalry at the end in order to rescue the two officers from the Alliance and Ghemor. Ro Laren has all of two scenes, since she is still unable to even walk without assistance thanks to Taran'atar's horrible assault from 'Warpath'. Quark, Ezri, Bashir, Nog, and the others only appear at the beginning where they talk to the MU's Terran Rebellion aboard that Terok Nor, and at the end where they use the Defiant to rescue Vaughn and Kira. There is a brief hint to Ezri requesting a transfer off of DS9, but it is extremely brief and not followed up again.
The ending hints at the future conflict with the Ascendants, and the sudden arrival of what appears to be our universe's Iliana Ghemor as their kind of 'Dark Emmisary'. I'm not entirely sure, but judging from the mention of 'nine red orbs', I assume that the Ascendants worship the Pah Wraiths. Especially since this 'Dark Emmisary' calls herself the 'fire', a frequent term for anything related to the Pah Wraiths.
Of course, it's really hard to say at this point when we're going to see this new conflict, since next month's DS9 book primarily focuses on the Cardassian view of the events from the beginning of the DS9 TV series up until the current DS9-Relaunch stories. It's very very unlikely that there will be much of a mention of the Ascendants. In addition, the next DS9 book jumps the entire series forward so that they can have a role in the 'Typhon Pact' miniseries. This means we may have to wait a long time to hear again about the Ascendants. In addition, we still haven't heard anything new about what has gone on in the Dominion since the Great Link disbanded. That may never be answered at this rate.
Anyway, I would give this book an A, and say that it has helped to save the DS9-Relaunch from stagnation.
Reposting my review from the other thread:
A MAJOR step up from the disappointment that was 'Fearful Symmetry', 'The Soul Key' wraps up the loose ends from the three-book arc that began in 'Warpath'.
The novel spends a good amount of time with flashbacks, sometimes jumping backwards at a key point in the narrative. This wasn't too dissimilar from the way that 'Full Circle' was written, but the technique was used much less frequently than in FC.
Overall, I felt like the book did a good job dealing with the various motivations of the different characters, especially those in the Mirror Universe. I would say about 60-70% of the book or more takes place in the MU, with all of the major events taking place there.
The first several chapters of the book focus on explaining where the deranged Iliana Ghemor was during various events from 'Warpath' and 'Fearful Symmetry'. It also lays out her plan in full, which in turn shows how mentally broken she really was. Her plan reminded me a lot of the movie/TV show 'Highlander', and the movie 'The One' (which is even more appropriate).
I have to give the author credit for including even a little bit about the MU's Luther Sloan, who thinks almost the same as his counterpart in our universe. The other MU characters came off just as they did in the recent MU collection 'Shards and Shadows', and the events of that collection are continued perfectly without any discrepancies. Kudos to the author for keeping the MU's continuity flowing. We find out more about the Alliance's political structure, and see what the MU versions of several familiar characters from DS9 are like (Winn, Opaka, Vaughn, Dukat, Natima Lang, etc.). The 'Vulcan Underground' storyline that had gone through all of the MU stories previously is continued. We also learn about the Bajoran movement to expel Alliance sympathizers from their world, and restore the traditional Bajoran belief system to something closer to our universe's Bajor. The story ends with the possibility that Bajor will now remove itself from the Alliance, since the new Emmisary (MU Iliana Ghemor) has now arrived. Judging from what we learned in this book about how Bajor frequently kept the Klingons and Cardassians together, this could spell the beginning of the end for the Alliance.
I found one storyline very confusing, and parts of it seemed to hint at something bigger. At the end of the last novel, Ben Sisko sent Vaughn on a mission to the MU, where he was tasked with finding the MU Ben Sisko, who he claimed was still alive, and not actually dead as we had seen during the TV series. Oddly, Vaughn arrives in the MU to find that the MU Ben Sisko is indeed dead, and that Sisko lied to him. It turns out that for some reason Sisko wanted Vaughn to meet his dying counterpart, who Vaughn ends up mercy killing so that he is not captured by the Alliance. There is also some discussion that our universe's Vaughn was supposed to be the MU's Emmisary, although this was somewhat vague. This sideplot ends with Vaughn slugging Sisko for lying to him, and saying that he was letting the Prophets control too much of his life.
Our universe's Iliana Ghemor has most of the spotlight in this book, as she rightly should. Because of the memory transfer described in 'Fearful Symmetry' not being fully completed, her mind is divided between her own memories, and those of Kira Nerys. She decides that she wants to fully BECOME Kira Nerys, first by killing Intendant Kira and taking her place, and then trying to kill our Kira later. She even gets the idea of using the paghvaram (the Bajoran word for the 'Soul Key' bracelet that contains the shard of the MU Orbs) to travel to other alternate universes in order to kill the Kiras in those universes. The part of her mind that still has some good in it allows her to reunite the MU version of her fiancee and the Bajoran woman he loves, and allow them to escape Mirror Terok Nor. This is at the same time where she is willing to kill everyone else on the station so that she can enter the Wormhole. So this particular villain has an unpredictability that makes her more three-dimensional than some other ST villains in the past.
Except for Vaughn and Kira, the rest of the DS9 crew has almost nothing to do in this book, except to show up as the cavalry at the end in order to rescue the two officers from the Alliance and Ghemor. Ro Laren has all of two scenes, since she is still unable to even walk without assistance thanks to Taran'atar's horrible assault from 'Warpath'. Quark, Ezri, Bashir, Nog, and the others only appear at the beginning where they talk to the MU's Terran Rebellion aboard that Terok Nor, and at the end where they use the Defiant to rescue Vaughn and Kira. There is a brief hint to Ezri requesting a transfer off of DS9, but it is extremely brief and not followed up again.
The ending hints at the future conflict with the Ascendants, and the sudden arrival of what appears to be our universe's Iliana Ghemor as their kind of 'Dark Emmisary'. I'm not entirely sure, but judging from the mention of 'nine red orbs', I assume that the Ascendants worship the Pah Wraiths. Especially since this 'Dark Emmisary' calls herself the 'fire', a frequent term for anything related to the Pah Wraiths.
Of course, it's really hard to say at this point when we're going to see this new conflict, since next month's DS9 book primarily focuses on the Cardassian view of the events from the beginning of the DS9 TV series up until the current DS9-Relaunch stories. It's very very unlikely that there will be much of a mention of the Ascendants. In addition, the next DS9 book jumps the entire series forward so that they can have a role in the 'Typhon Pact' miniseries. This means we may have to wait a long time to hear again about the Ascendants. In addition, we still haven't heard anything new about what has gone on in the Dominion since the Great Link disbanded. That may never be answered at this rate.
Anyway, I would give this book an A, and say that it has helped to save the DS9-Relaunch from stagnation.
Re: The Soul Key Discussion Thread <Spoilers>
I just finished part one, and so far I am loving the book. I'm amazed at the number of wholes it's already filled in with all of the stuff with Ghemore, who IMO is a great villain and fascinating character. I also really liked the prolouge in the MU, I enjoyed getting to meet MU Opaka and Winn, and I'm very curious to see more of MU Prynn. She's always been one of my favorite Trek Lit characters, so I'm anxious to see how her MU version is different and/or the same.
I just finished part one, and so far I am loving the book. I'm amazed at the number of wholes it's already filled in with all of the stuff with Ghemore, who IMO is a great villain and fascinating character. I also really liked the prolouge in the MU, I enjoyed getting to meet MU Opaka and Winn, and I'm very curious to see more of MU Prynn. She's always been one of my favorite Trek Lit characters, so I'm anxious to see how her MU version is different and/or the same.
Re: The Soul Key Discussion Thread <Spoilers>
Hmmm, I don't have "The Soul Key" yet, but I remember the Ascendants saying they worship "the True". And now mention of red orbs. All these hints relating to "Millennium" are very interesting...
Hmmm, I don't have "The Soul Key" yet, but I remember the Ascendants saying they worship "the True". And now mention of red orbs. All these hints relating to "Millennium" are very interesting...
Re: The Soul Key Discussion Thread <Spoilers>
The Pah Wraiths have not usually bothered with corporeal matters except to get access to one of the Orbs, and you should remember that it was the Prophets to delivered Illiana to the Ascendants, not the Pah Wraiths. I think that the Prophets welcomed the Eav'oQ, the Hebitians, the Ascendants and the Bajorans to worship them, two from each side of the Celestial Temple - remembering what the Iconian said in Demons of Air and Darkness - the worlds of the Prophets. The Hebitians were killed off during the Cataclysm, leaving just the other three races to gather at the Celestial Temple for the final reckoning. Though The Never-Ending Sacrifice could see a resurgence of the Hebitian people...
Even if DS9 jumps ahead five years, it will take time for the Ascendants to gather their forces from across the GQ and head for the wormhole. There's also the fact that we might get another Even Odds novel with Taran'atar joining the group in place of Jake Sisko (the unresistable idea from Paula Block?). The Ascendant storyline might build up over several novels and come to fruition after the Typhon Pact. After all, it took several books for the MU storyline to come to a close.
I'm looking forward to seeing where the DS9 story continues.
Is The Soul Key the end of season nine? and TNES the beginning of season ten?
The Pah Wraiths have not usually bothered with corporeal matters except to get access to one of the Orbs, and you should remember that it was the Prophets to delivered Illiana to the Ascendants, not the Pah Wraiths. I think that the Prophets welcomed the Eav'oQ, the Hebitians, the Ascendants and the Bajorans to worship them, two from each side of the Celestial Temple - remembering what the Iconian said in Demons of Air and Darkness - the worlds of the Prophets. The Hebitians were killed off during the Cataclysm, leaving just the other three races to gather at the Celestial Temple for the final reckoning. Though The Never-Ending Sacrifice could see a resurgence of the Hebitian people...
Even if DS9 jumps ahead five years, it will take time for the Ascendants to gather their forces from across the GQ and head for the wormhole. There's also the fact that we might get another Even Odds novel with Taran'atar joining the group in place of Jake Sisko (the unresistable idea from Paula Block?). The Ascendant storyline might build up over several novels and come to fruition after the Typhon Pact. After all, it took several books for the MU storyline to come to a close.
I'm looking forward to seeing where the DS9 story continues.
Is The Soul Key the end of season nine? and TNES the beginning of season ten?
Re: The Soul Key Discussion Thread <Spoilers>
Yes, the Prophets sent Iliana Ghemor/the Fire to the Ascendants, but it still seems to me like the Ascendants are worshippers of the Pah Wraiths, from all of the hints being dropped. Why else would they have a conflict with races that worship the Prophets?
Yes, the Prophets sent Iliana Ghemor/the Fire to the Ascendants, but it still seems to me like the Ascendants are worshippers of the Pah Wraiths, from all of the hints being dropped. Why else would they have a conflict with races that worship the Prophets?
Re: The Soul Key Discussion Thread <Spoilers>
My enjoyment of this novel mostly sits on the last couple of chapters, the potential for a new Even Odds story, with Taran'atar no less, and of the Ascendants story finally getting going are very exciting. And also reassuring, its set up for an immediate continuation that makes me feel even though we're getting future-DS9 stories in the Typhon Pact this era will not be skipped over and will be continued at the usual in-universe pace in a year or two.
Taran'atar and Vaughn are probably my favourite relaunch characters and I really enjoyed both their arcs here, though would have liked more time with both.
Otherwise, I've not been especially keen on the whole mirror universe story, but it played out reasonably interestingly, I enjoyed how all the Kiras came together, and especially how both Illanas gained a purpose. I'm very curious what it is the Prophets had to say to Kira when it was just her left.
One thing that occurs to me, or maybe just a hope, is that this seems to have set the mirror universe on course for some big changes. I wonder if part of the reason Sorrows of Empire is being extended is as a solid stand-alone start to the Memory Omega story which I hope to see a conclusion to soon.
My enjoyment of this novel mostly sits on the last couple of chapters, the potential for a new Even Odds story, with Taran'atar no less, and of the Ascendants story finally getting going are very exciting. And also reassuring, its set up for an immediate continuation that makes me feel even though we're getting future-DS9 stories in the Typhon Pact this era will not be skipped over and will be continued at the usual in-universe pace in a year or two.
Taran'atar and Vaughn are probably my favourite relaunch characters and I really enjoyed both their arcs here, though would have liked more time with both.
Otherwise, I've not been especially keen on the whole mirror universe story, but it played out reasonably interestingly, I enjoyed how all the Kiras came together, and especially how both Illanas gained a purpose. I'm very curious what it is the Prophets had to say to Kira when it was just her left.
One thing that occurs to me, or maybe just a hope, is that this seems to have set the mirror universe on course for some big changes. I wonder if part of the reason Sorrows of Empire is being extended is as a solid stand-alone start to the Memory Omega story which I hope to see a conclusion to soon.
Re: The Soul Key Discussion Thread <Spoilers>
I bought the book yesterday and finished it, first time I read a book that quickly. The Ghemor backstory was kind of interesting but I thought it went on too long. I like the MU and hope that there may be some more novels dealing with the Terran Rebellion in the future but I'm not sure how well the MU trades sold and Sorrows of Empire may be what determines if any future MU stories are to be told. With the Talarians now on the side of the rebels it'll be interesting to see what can happen. Will the rebels be able to build their fleet of Defiant-class ships now? Did Smiley steal more than just the blueprints for the Defiant? Should definitely be interesting.
I'm not very up on the Ascendants story, I must have missed the book they were introduced in but it shows promise and I am intrigued by almost anything Prophets related anyway.
I was surprised when Vaughn amounted to pretty much just killing his mirror-self (he should have been dead already IMO) and that being it for the character. I was feeling that he'd either find MU Sisko alive and convince him to take up the mantle of Emissary (think of what it would be like for a human to become the Emissary in this universe, it would certainly have a profound impact on the order of things) or become the Emissary himself.
In all it was a great book. I'd prefer that TNES be more about DS9 than about Cardassia but I'll take what I can get of DS9 stories since it's my favorite series.
I bought the book yesterday and finished it, first time I read a book that quickly. The Ghemor backstory was kind of interesting but I thought it went on too long. I like the MU and hope that there may be some more novels dealing with the Terran Rebellion in the future but I'm not sure how well the MU trades sold and Sorrows of Empire may be what determines if any future MU stories are to be told. With the Talarians now on the side of the rebels it'll be interesting to see what can happen. Will the rebels be able to build their fleet of Defiant-class ships now? Did Smiley steal more than just the blueprints for the Defiant? Should definitely be interesting.
I'm not very up on the Ascendants story, I must have missed the book they were introduced in but it shows promise and I am intrigued by almost anything Prophets related anyway.
I was surprised when Vaughn amounted to pretty much just killing his mirror-self (he should have been dead already IMO) and that being it for the character. I was feeling that he'd either find MU Sisko alive and convince him to take up the mantle of Emissary (think of what it would be like for a human to become the Emissary in this universe, it would certainly have a profound impact on the order of things) or become the Emissary himself.
In all it was a great book. I'd prefer that TNES be more about DS9 than about Cardassia but I'll take what I can get of DS9 stories since it's my favorite series.
Re: The Soul Key Discussion Thread <Spoilers>
BrotherBenny--Are you thinking the Hebitians are a separate species? I always thought they WERE the Cardassians, just under a different name. And of course, the Oralian Way isn't dead...it just suffered badly. And there's actually been a resurgence underway since the Terok Nor novels, one that's come out into the open after the fall of the Dominion-Cardassian alliance.
BrotherBenny--Are you thinking the Hebitians are a separate species? I always thought they WERE the Cardassians, just under a different name. And of course, the Oralian Way isn't dead...it just suffered badly. And there's actually been a resurgence underway since the Terok Nor novels, one that's come out into the open after the fall of the Dominion-Cardassian alliance.
Re: The Soul Key Discussion Thread <Spoilers>
The Cardassians are descended from the Hebitians, but not in the straightforward way they claim. Andrew Robinson's works suggested- and other novels have supported this idea, but it's only one interpretation- that modern Cardassians are descended from both the Hebitians and another (related?) colonial race, who turned against Hebitia Prime during the Cataclysm there, as JD says. However, the Hebitians and this other race (which some novels suggest were a lower social class) might well be the same species, just divided into two cultures or castes (telepaths and non-telepaths is one interpretation, I recall). Their genes and cultures combined, with militarism and brutality winning out over peace and spirituality due to the trials of the Cataclysm. The people abandoned Hebitian teachings and embraced the new Cardassian ethic, and some accounts say those who supported the new ways enslaved those who clung on to the Hebitian way of life. Under this interpretation, Nerys Ghemor would be right to say Cardassians are Hebitians going under a new name, but possibly with another race mixed in. We know Cardassians trace some of their modern culture and language to their Hebitian forebears, despite on the whole showing disdain for Hebitian attitudes and outlooks.
The books that have dealt with the Hebitians have made a point of describing them as a mystery, though, with several possibly conflicting ideas (Tolan Garak's account, from Oralian records, suggests Hebitians had interstellar colonies. "Well of Souls" supports this, while also suggesting there was next to no actual evidence of Hebitian spaceflight).
The Cardassians are descended from the Hebitians, but not in the straightforward way they claim.
Andrew Robinson's works suggested- and other novels have supported this idea, but it's only one interpretation- that modern Cardassians are descended from both the Hebitians and another (related?) colonial race, who turned against Hebitia Prime during the Cataclysm there, as JD says. However, the Hebitians and this other race (which some novels suggest were a lower social class) might well be the same species, just divided into two cultures or castes (telepaths and non-telepaths is one interpretation, I recall). Their genes and cultures combined, with militarism and brutality winning out over peace and spirituality due to the trials of the Cataclysm. The people abandoned Hebitian teachings and embraced the new Cardassian ethic, and some accounts say those who supported the new ways enslaved those who clung on to the Hebitian way of life. Under this interpretation, Nerys Ghemor would be right to say Cardassians are Hebitians going under a new name, but possibly with another race mixed in. We know Cardassians trace some of their modern culture and language to their Hebitian forebears, despite on the whole showing disdain for Hebitian attitudes and outlooks.The books that have dealt with the Hebitians have made a point of describing them as a mystery, though, with several possibly conflicting ideas (Tolan Garak's account, from Oralian records, suggests Hebitians had interstellar colonies. "Well of Souls" supports this, while also suggesting there was next to no actual evidence of Hebitian spaceflight).
Re: The Soul Key Discussion Thread <Spoilers>
^ One theory (to which I subscribe) is that the Cardassians were a political movement that gained prominence during the cataclysm on Prime and succeed in taking power. As the people's of Prime were disheartened by the corruption of the Hebitian Kingdoms and the oppression of the established Oralian Doctrines they accepted the message of Cardassianism as promulgated by Tret Alkken and became the Cardassian people that we all know and love.
(the above is of course merely my own take on the origins of the Cardassians)
Mind you the alien invader scenario has merit and would be an interesting twist. I can only wonder what those invaders/usurpers looked like...
^ One theory (to which I subscribe) is that the Cardassians were a political movement that gained prominence during the cataclysm on Prime and succeed in taking power. As the people's of Prime were disheartened by the corruption of the Hebitian Kingdoms and the oppression of the established Oralian Doctrines they accepted the message of Cardassianism as promulgated by Tret Alkken and became the Cardassian people that we all know and love.
(the above is of course merely my own take on the origins of the Cardassians)
Mind you the alien invader scenario has merit and would be an interesting twist. I can only wonder what those invaders/usurpers looked like...
Re: The Soul Key Discussion Thread <Spoilers>
It could well be a mix of dissatisfaction with Oralian doctrine (which I assume many considered no longer adequate following the climate shift) supporting the rise of new political ideologies on Prime, and attacks from outsiders. If Prime was being attacked or raided due to its weakened state, I suppose that might encourage people to throw support behind Akleen's stoic and militiristic philosophies. I remember DS9 establishing Akleen was born on Ventani II, so I guess Hebitia/Cardassia must have had some form of spaceflight (or those psionic portals, or whatever). I'm sure all the interpretations can be reconciled in some form.
It could well be a mix of dissatisfaction with Oralian doctrine (which I assume many considered no longer adequate following the climate shift) supporting the rise of new political ideologies on Prime, and attacks from outsiders. If Prime was being attacked or raided due to its weakened state, I suppose that might encourage people to throw support behind Akleen's stoic and militiristic philosophies. I remember DS9 establishing Akleen was born on Ventani II, so I guess Hebitia/Cardassia must have had some form of spaceflight (or those psionic portals, or whatever).
I'm sure all the interpretations can be reconciled in some form.
Re: The Soul Key Discussion Thread <Spoilers>
Indeed, I'm quite taken with the idea of Hebitia/Cardassia being an older spacefareing civilization myself.
It could well be a mix of dissatisfaction with Oralian doctrine (which I assume many considered no longer adequate following the climate shift) supporting the rise of new political ideologies on Prime, and attacks from outsiders. If Prime was being attacked or raided due to its weakened state, I suppose that might encourage people to throw support behind Akleen's stoic and militiristic philosophies. I remember DS9 establishing Akleen was born on Ventani II, so I guess Hebitia/Cardassia must have had some form of spaceflight (or those psionic portals, or whatever).
Indeed, I'm quite taken with the idea of Hebitia/Cardassia being an older spacefareing civilization myself.
Re: The Soul Key Discussion Thread <Spoilers>
Now, I don't want anyone to think I'm accusing them of copying them, because I'm not. I know this has happened many times in both Sci-Fi and real life, that's just the one I'm most familiar with.
So this version would have them being kinda like the Sith in Star Wars. Accordign to their wookiepedia page, the Sith were originally a species, but they were eventually enslaved by and interbred with a group of exiled Jedi. As time went on it the beliefs they spread until it became the modern cult.
The Cardassians are descended from the Hebitians, but not in the straightforward way they claim.
Now, I don't want anyone to think I'm accusing them of copying them, because I'm not. I know this has happened many times in both Sci-Fi and real life, that's just the one I'm most familiar with.
Re: The Soul Key Discussion Thread <Spoilers>
It was my understanding that the Hebitians were simply Cardassians under a theocracy until the Cataclysm came and reduced Cardassia Prime to resource-poor world, necessitating them going outward to find resources. This led to a great debate between the ruling theocracy and the rising military until the latter eventually took over and outlawed the religious teachings of the Oralian Way because it didn't suit their new world order. Of course the Oralian Way just went underground for a few centuries.
I think that if Cardassia had not undergone this Cataclysm, then the Hebitian civilisation would have flourished and become like the Bajoran civilisation. That's only my interpretation though. Perhaps TNES will provide more insight into Cardassia and link them into the Ascendants storyline.
It was my understanding that the Hebitians were simply Cardassians under a theocracy until the Cataclysm came and reduced Cardassia Prime to resource-poor world, necessitating them going outward to find resources. This led to a great debate between the ruling theocracy and the rising military until the latter eventually took over and outlawed the religious teachings of the Oralian Way because it didn't suit their new world order. Of course the Oralian Way just went underground for a few centuries.
I think that if Cardassia had not undergone this Cataclysm, then the Hebitian civilisation would have flourished and become like the Bajoran civilisation. That's only my interpretation though. Perhaps TNES will provide more insight into Cardassia and link them into the Ascendants storyline.
Re: The Soul Key Discussion Thread <Spoilers>
One thing that confuses me: in 'Fearful Symmetry' the Prophets contacted Sisko and basically said that he needed to find MU Sisko and convince him to become the MU's Emmisary. Sisko even met other alternate-universe versions of himself who became the Emmisary as well. However, in 'The Soul Key', we find out that MU Sisko has been dead almost as long as we thought, and then the Prophets eventually decide to let MU Iliana Ghemor be the Emmisary. I thought that was a little weird.
Actually, the rebels already tried this, with that story taking place directly before the events of 'The Soul Key'. There was a brief mention of this from Smiley. I will post spoilers if you want them.
One thing that confuses me: in 'Fearful Symmetry' the Prophets contacted Sisko and basically said that he needed to find MU Sisko and convince him to become the MU's Emmisary. Sisko even met other alternate-universe versions of himself who became the Emmisary as well. However, in 'The Soul Key', we find out that MU Sisko has been dead almost as long as we thought, and then the Prophets eventually decide to let MU Iliana Ghemor be the Emmisary. I thought that was a little weird.
Re: The Soul Key Discussion Thread <Spoilers>
That's the same interpretation I go for...and frankly, I think it makes a lot more sense than what the relaunch has promulgated.
(Though I would argue the degree to which the Oralians were ACTUALLY abusive. I suspect there were some egregious examples, but that the majority weren't bad at all...they were just a convenient scapegoat.)
That's the same interpretation I go for...and frankly, I think it makes a lot more sense than what the relaunch has promulgated.
(Though I would argue the degree to which the Oralians were ACTUALLY abusive. I suspect there were some egregious examples, but that the majority weren't bad at all...they were just a convenient scapegoat.)