DS9 in 2013

[MatthiasRussell]

I, for one, agree with ATimson. My opinion is that Sisko's actions in RBoE were those of a dead-beat dad and were not heroic in any way. It seemed to me Sisko was using the prophesies as an excuse to leave. Sure he hoped by breaking ties he would save lives but he gave Kassidy and his family no say in the matter. He could have respected them enough to TRY to explain things before he left and given them the chance to explain what THEY thought he should do in light of the prophesies. Obviously Nerys knew the prophesies, believed in them, and had a different interpretation.

Then, once Sisko left, did he have to divorce Kassidy and have no contact with his daughter? Wasn't not being bodily present perhaps enough? Plus, as Nerys said, the prophesy only mentioned his being with Kassidy, NOT his daughter. Had he not been with Kassidy, would his father not have died? Would his neighbors not have been killed in a freak fire?

Siskos actions were cowardly. Thankfully he came to his senses in Plagues of Night thanks to the efforts of those who cared for him.

 

[ICW]

To me, Sisko appeared to be very human. Humans make mistakes, they jump to conclusions - especially when they're extremely frightened.

He redeemed himself in Plagues of Night to some degree. Hopefully, he'll only grow in the next book.

Like a regular human does.

 

[Paris]

Maybe some spoiler warnings folks. Not everyone has finished Plagues of Night yet

 

[rfmcdpei]

I, for one, agree with ATimson. My opinion is that Sisko's actions in RBoE were those of a dead-beat dad and were not heroic in any way.

No one has been saying that Sisko was a hero for leaving his daughter and wife, and his son and daughter-in-law, and all his other friends in the Bha'va'el system.

The most that has been said is that, as someone who has very good reason to believe in the Prophets as beings who can accurately recount the future, he did well to take them seriously.

It seemed to me Sisko was using the prophesies as an excuse to leave. Sure he hoped by breaking ties he would save lives but he gave Kassidy and his family no say in the matter. He could have respected them enough to TRY to explain things before he left and given them the chance to explain what THEY thought he should do in light of the prophesies. Obviously Nerys knew the prophesies, believed in them, and had a different interpretation.

Did she? When Kira learned about the prophecy on the TV station, her first reaction was to say that the Prophets' prophecy had to be trusted as hard as it was. In RBoE and in George's latest, Kira behaves in a similar way, wishing it wasn't true but trusting in the Prophets.

Kira doesn't like the reality of the Prophets' prediction, but she accepts it.

Then, once Sisko left, did he have to divorce Kassidy and have no contact with his daughter? Wasn't not being bodily present perhaps enough? Plus, as Nerys said, the prophesy only mentioned his being with Kassidy, NOT his daughter. Had he not been with Kassidy, would his father not have died? Would his neighbors not have been killed in a freak fire?

Assuming that the Prophets can be counted on as a source of knowledge about the future, why not?

 

[MatthiasRussell]

To me, Sisko appeared to be very human. Humans make mistakes, they jump to conclusions - especially when they're extremely frightened.

He redeemed himself in Plagues of Night to some degree. Hopefully, he'll only grow in the next book.

Like a regular human does.

I agree. That is why, though I don't like the direction the character went, I can believe the direction Sisko took. Plenty of heroic figures have messed up personal lives.

DRG III chose to write the story the way he did, but he by no means wrote an unbelievable story. We can choose to dislike Sisko's actions and disagree with them but that doesn't mean the author did a terrible job with the character and book.

 

[MatthiasRussell]

Then, once Sisko left, did he have to divorce Kassidy and have no contact with his daughter? Wasn't not being bodily present perhaps enough? Plus, as Nerys said, the prophesy only mentioned his being with Kassidy, NOT his daughter. Had he not been with Kassidy, would his father not have died? Would his neighbors not have been killed in a freak fire?

Assuming that the Prophets can be counted on as a source of knowledge about the future, why not?

I'm not discounting the ability of the prophets to see and tell the future but in this case, as with most of the prophets predictions, the information they provide is extremely vague and open to interpretation. The prophets said if Sisko married Kassidy he would know only sorrow. That doesn't mean Kassidy or Rebecca would know only sorrow. That doesn't mean they would be killed. Perhaps choosing to marry Kassidy put Sisko on a course to make friends who would later die and not be able to be present when his father died. These events may have no cause and effect link nor does Sisko have any reason or evidence to believe that being married to Kassidy would cause the deaths of others.

What if 2 universes diverge at the decision to marry Kassidy and the prophets choose only to look down the path where he married Kassidy or not reveal what would have happened if he didn't. Perhaps if he DIDN'T marry Kassidy he would know only sorrow.

There was simply not enough information provided by the prophets for Sisko to make any kind of accurate extrapolation for how events might unfold so he can prepare or respond in an effective manner. Perhaps by leaving Kassidy he brought about the sorrow the prophets predicted. There is just no way to know.

 

[rfmcdpei]

Then, once Sisko left, did he have to divorce Kassidy and have no contact with his daughter? Wasn't not being bodily present perhaps enough? Plus, as Nerys said, the prophesy only mentioned his being with Kassidy, NOT his daughter. Had he not been with Kassidy, would his father not have died? Would his neighbors not have been killed in a freak fire?

Assuming that the Prophets can be counted on as a source of knowledge about the future, why not?

I'm not discounting the ability of the prophets to see and tell the future but in this case, as with most of the prophets predictions, the information they provide is extremely vague and open to interpretation. The prophets said if Sisko married Kassidy he would know only sorrow. That doesn't mean Kassidy or Rebecca would know only sorrow. That doesn't mean they would be killed. Perhaps choosing to marry Kassidy put Sisko on a course to make friends who would later die and not be able to be present when his father died. These events may have no cause and effect link nor does Sisko have any reason or evidence to believe that being married to Kassidy would cause the deaths of others.

At least going by the prophecy as recounted in RBoE, Sisko did have reason to believe that if he spent his life with Kasidy he would know sorrow. I quote the relevant passage below.

"The Prophets do not exist in time the way that we do. And neither did I in the time that I spent with them in the Celestial Temple, so I have some firsthand understanding of this. The Prophets live a nonlinear existence, but more than that, they live a continuous existence. It's how they can generate accurate prophecies, how they can know the future: they live in what we call the future, and in the past, and in the present. They are aware of every moment in their lives at all times. And they also see potential moment in uncountable possible timeline.

"I don't think I can explain it any better than that. But I lived that way, and even though I can't remember the details of it, of a future that was the same as my present and my past, I do remember how overwhelming it was. And I recall the nature of it ... the reality of it.

My point is that when the Prophets told me that I would know only sorrow if I spent my life with you, they weren't threatening me. They were telling me what they had already seen ... what they were seeing at that instant. They saw me marry you, and they saw my life inundated with sorrow. They also saw an existence where I did not spend my life with you, and where I was not inundated by sorrow."

[. . .]

"I saw it happening. The sorrow was getting closer, and deeper. I couldn't let something happen to you and Rebecca. It was hard enough when we almost lost her the first time" (377-378).

The precise mechanisms are open to question, but Sisko does seem sincerely convinced that at the very least, if he spends his life with Kasidy he will know sorrow to a particularly intense degree. It's not inconceivable to infer from this that a life characterized by sorrow if he chose to spend with Kasidy, the woman he loves, will be characterized by sorrow over something terrible happening to her.

The idea of exile, I remember, was suggested as early as "Sacrifice of Angels", as the price for Sisko's demand that the wormhole aliens prevent the incursion of the Dominion fleet from the Gamma Quadrant.

DAMAR ALIEN
But what of the Sisko?

ODO ALIEN
He is intrusive.

DUKAT ALIEN
He tries to control the game.

JAKE ALIEN
A penance must be exacted.

The aliens exchange a long look, then nod. It is clear
they have come to an important decision.

WEYOUN ALIEN
It is agreed.

The Odo and Dukat aliens turn to face Sisko.

DUKAT ALIEN
The Sisko is of Bajor, but he will
find no rest there.

 

[vegaslover62]

Does a dissenting view upset you in some way?

When your dislike for certain authors is mentioned so many times and has derailed so many threads, yes it does tend to upset people. You are cordially invited to MOVE ON.

 

[vegaslover62]

I'm just saying that if I don't like brussels sprouts, I don't complain to everybody who will listen, and interrupt everybody else's conversations with it, no matter how they might be relevant to what they were talking about. WE GET IT. You don't like DRGIII and MAM. Move on!

 

[Christopher]

I actually kinda like Brussels sprouts...

 

[Rush Limborg]

^I've never had'em, actually--but if they're basically miniature cabbage (as they look like), I'd be okay with that.

 

[Therin of Andor]

I actually kinda like Brussels sprouts...

Me too, but the frozen ones are hideous.

 

[MatthiasRussell]

rfmcdpei,
Even in the passage you quote, the prophets say nothing as to the source of his sorrow or that the marriage will result in any deaths. I see nothing there where he has solid evidence that things would be better if he left. For all we know, they were referring to the grief he would get from his new in-laws! (Geez, I wish the prophets would have warned me about MY sorrow!)

The prophesy also doesn't say anything about Kassidy or their daughter knowing sorrow. Nor was this revealed to Sisko during his time in the temple. Perhaps by staying with his family, HE would know sorrow, but they would be okay. If that was okay and a proper interpretation, by leaving, he brought them sorrow needlessly. Leaving sure didn't decrease his sorrow. What's done was done. He already didn't follow the prophets' direction and met his sorrow. The deed was done and it was too late to fix it.

 

[Mage]

When will the haters finally realize that we, the lovers, NEVER SAID SISKO IS A HERO!!!!!!!!!!!

Everybody agrees that what Sisko did is wrong. We just like the fact that instead of everybody and their uncle being a perfect SOB in Treklit, people actually make misguided judgements in the 24th century.

Don't like it? Deal with it. I mean, I don't understand how people keep complaining about it so much. It's a done deal.

 

[shanejayell]

So.. how upset will readers be if Terok Nor is destroyed and replaced by a new station?

 

[Mage]

So.. how upset will readers be if Terok Nor is destroyed and replaced by a new station?

Some will shrug, other will shed a tear and 'mourn' as they would for a favorite character and then move on and enjoy the stories because of all the great characters.

And then some will feel betrayed and are convinced that this is the greatest injustice to Trekkind since forever. They will then flood the board every change they get will meaningless posts about how unfair it is that DS9 was destroyed and this it's totally out of character for the station.

*I'm being sarcastic here people.....*

 

[MatthiasRussell]

When will the haters finally realize that we, the lovers, NEVER SAID SISKO IS A HERO!!!!!!!!!!!

Everybody agrees that what Sisko did is wrong. We just like the fact that instead of everybody and their uncle being a perfect SOB in Treklit, people actually make misguided judgements in the 24th century.

Don't like it? Deal with it. I mean, I don't understand how people keep complaining about it so much. It's a done deal.

Hey, I agree. Sisko is my favorite trek captain. But it is interesting to discuss this action of his and discuss whether he did the right or wrong thing. That is what we are discussing, not if his actions were heroic, but if he did the right thing.

My favorite historical hero is Ernest Shackleton. He did great things but had a terrible personal life at times. I don't think those aspects of him make him less heroic; however I do enjoy discussing his personal problems and failings as much as his arctic experience.

 

[Mage]

When will the haters finally realize that we, the lovers, NEVER SAID SISKO IS A HERO!!!!!!!!!!!

Everybody agrees that what Sisko did is wrong. We just like the fact that instead of everybody and their uncle being a perfect SOB in Treklit, people actually make misguided judgements in the 24th century.

Don't like it? Deal with it. I mean, I don't understand how people keep complaining about it so much. It's a done deal.

Hey, I agree. Sisko is my favorite trek captain. But it is interesting to discuss this action of his and discuss whether he did the right or wrong thing. That is what we are discussing, not if his actions were heroic, but if he did the right thing.

My favorite historical hero is Ernest Shackleton. He did great things but had a terrible personal life at times. I don't think those aspects of him make him less heroic; however I do enjoy discussing his personal problems and failings as much as his arctic experience.

That's not my issue. Some people seem to claim that we claim Sisko to be a hero, that he did do the right thing by leaving his family. We are not saying that. But no matter how often we repeat that, some are still claiming that we (with we I mean the fans that are still interested in Sisko and call him our favorite captain) feel he's awesome for leaving his family. We don't feel that way, we do feel he did the wrong thing. But somehow, that get's lost I think.

 

[MatthiasRussell]

I do think there are those who think Sisko did the right thing by leaving his family. I do recall his actions being praised by some as well, though maybe not in this thread or even this board.

 

[Paris]

So.. how upset will readers be if Terok Nor is destroyed and replaced by a new station?

Come on dude! Please use spoiler tags!!!!! As i said upthread...not everyone has finished the book yet!