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Spoilers DS9: Ascendance by David R. George III Review Thread

Rate Ascendance

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In this story, we once again had the "man lost to history" thing brought up in his meeting with the Kai. He has no idea was a "Kai" is, and the Kai has never heard of any of the names or places he references. Well, break out a damn globe! The continents are all going to be in pretty much the same place.

I'm pretty sure they mentioned at least a couple times that they did do that, compare where he was from geographically to known archaeological records, and that it still turned up blank. Like, the impression I got was that they did everything that you described, and it still hasn't turned up anything. That there's literally no surviving record of the city he came from because it was just that long ago.

Keep in mind, Bajor's civilization stretches back 50,000 years; that's enough time for basically any records but stone carving to be completely destroyed, and stone carvings to be rendered unreadable unless preserved properly. There are still countless gaps in our own historical record, and our own civilization only reaches back a tenth as far. Troy was still settled as recently as 1500 years ago, and people still thought it was a myth until the 19th century.
 
Even if there's no record of the civilization, it boggles me that they wouldn't find the geography. I don't recall if they established that his home era had a global society, but even if they were limited to just a section of one continent and they had terrible maps, it seems like he should be able to find a landmark and figure out he hails from present-day Dakhur or something. I can find my home on one of those blobby five-hundred-year-old maps of North America, it seems like it should be possible to do the reverse. The impression I got from the other books was that when none of his names or events rang a bell, they just gave up rather than trying something even more basic.

To use your example, it would be as if someone from Troy popped up in the modern day and said he was from Ilium, and everyone just stared blankly because they didn't know the name, and he never volunteered that it was on the east side of a stretch of land bordered by a sea to the north and a massive sea to the southeast, and there were many islands and two large peninsulas to the east, the more distant of which looked like a boot. Even a bad drawing should be enough to find the general area.

If they really can't find anything solid, no matter how small, it might be worth considering that he's not actually from Bajor of the past, nose notwithstanding. In-universe, I mean. We as readers have a bit more information.
 
Well, for one, I think you might be vastly overestimating the level of knowledge someone from the distant past in Earth civilization would have about the overall geography of their area. I'd be surprised if they would have been able to say more than "it was on the east side of a stretch of land bordered by a sea to the north and a massive sea to the southeast"; if it wasn't within sight they probably wouldn't have known it. :p (And this is nitpicking-in-order-to-have-an-excuse-to-share-a-neat-factoid, but the first recorded reference to saying Italy was shaped like a boot was in the 1560s, that long ago it probably wouldn't have been used as a description since boots didn't look like Italy until around that same time. :p)

But beyond that, I thought that they did know what part of the planet Altek was from and it's just that there wasn't anything found there nowadays that would hint towards how long ago he was from. Am I remembering wrong?
 
I don't remember if it was mentioned that they'd figured out where Joradell or any of Altek's other references were. None of the relevant Memory Beta articles say where they are in present-day terms. If it was, I'd think it would've come up again in this book, when he was talking about wanting to go back to Bajor, despite it being a virtually alien world to him. He could talk about how seeing familiar mountains on the horizon would be comforting, or Ro could tell him about the people and cities that live on the site of Joradell now.

Looking over those MB articles, it looks like the civilization during the time of the Bajora was fairly wide-spanning (they know where multiple continents were in relation to each other, and "Horn and Ivory" seems to mention the Fire Caves explicitly, so there's your common landmark), so I'm going to stand by my idea that Altek should have a serviceable knowledge of the shape of the world, and knowing where he's from should tell them something worth at least a couple paragraphs of exposition. If DRG could take a full page each to remind us of Cenn yelling at the Kai twice within twenty pages, in nearly identical terms except for replacing "last night" with "two nights ago," he could've found the space for some comparative world building of ancient and modern Bajor.
 
Well.

Before I begin, I want to emphasize that I did like the book, would probably rate it in the Above Average range. Unfortunately, given the delays that have struck the DS9 line since the components of the Ascendants story were first brought together in 2005, I think the hype and expectation hurt the way that their conclusion played out for me as a reader, making it feel less impressive than it actually was. When you have to wait for about ten years for the full story to play out, it builds up expectations and hopes in your mind that the inevitable work will never be able to fully meet. Hopefully, when I reread it later, when I am further away from the desire to see this story play out for the better part of a decade, I'll be able to get away from that feeling, but for right now, because there was all of this build up in my mind, I can't help but feel a sense of disappointment.

That acknowledged, I think my biggest problem here is that this definitely feels like two books put into one. I know that there have been multiple books that have been outlined as two and had to be compacted into one since the novel line stopped coming out with two books a month, but this is the first time I've felt that it's actively hurt the story being told, that the story unfolding NEEDED the split, that having them combined like this was an actual impediment for the overall narrative.

Because the first half is moving entirely at the speed of plot, with Kira as the central focus. And, while I love Kira, and I do agree that this should be primarily her story, DS9's strength has always been in its ensemble nature. I enjoyed getting to revisit Dax in that period where she started getting restless on DS9, but both of these characters had an issue that bothered me, in that their doubts and questions for their current path didn't feel natural and organic, just retroactively placed, because of the time it's been since these characters have had focused on them in this time period. As an audience, we know that Kira left Starfleet after this and Dax eventually leaves DS9, but I don't feel like I've witnessed the start of their path, just been told that they're on already on it.

I also would have liked to have seen more of the other characters on DS9 at this time - Vaughan gets a segment or two, while Ro doesn't appear at all until near the end of this half. Bashir is mentioned but goes entirely unseenGiven that Ro is pretty much the connecting character between the two time periods, I think seeing some focus on her in the 2375 period would have been helpful. Her and Cenn, actually, who I'll get to further in a minute. While this half is definitely Kira's story, Bajor is their home as well, and I would have liked to see their reactions to this existential threat to their world. Like I said, I feel like this should have been its own, separate book, allowing a greater look at the scale of this half of the story. It has a mission to accomplish, to tell the tale of the Ascendants attack on Bajor, but I don't feel that it really has a chance to breathe and allow the characters to react as they should.

But, on the other hand, at long last we have resolved this loose thread, and, given the events in the greater Star Trek universe within the novels, we also know that life on DS9 was relatively peaceful in the time that followed this up until Destiny. DS9 is, for the most part, caught up with the main timeline in the novels and can now continue and advance at a reasonable pace with the rest of them. We can see more DS9 novels in the future (and, maybe please open up the authorship - no slight on DRG, but I miss the days when multiple authors got to put a unique stamp on the series, so I'd like to see some other people get a crack at the whole crew, rather than splitting them up and spreading them around).

Moving on to the second half, I am actually interested in the development for Ro, of her beginning to see the Prophets as maybe being gods. I've long said that there are events that can make one person drop to their knees in prayer and send another person to the bar for a drink, and I like seeing the juxtaposition of Ro and Cenn moving in opposing paths in the wake of the discovery of the falsehood. I think Ro has enough uniquenes to her character that her taking a few steps in favor of believing in the Prophets won't make her indistinguishable from Kira or anything. I'm also sorry to see Cenn go, but I have a feeling he'll be back at some point - his departure did not feel like a definitive end for his character.

I was also pleased to see a character not named Blackmer in the new senior staff get some focus. Wheeler Stinson finally has an identity. Now, if some of the other senior staff could get that (which, going back to the start, would have been an advantage in this being two books), I'd be able to keep the names straight. Like I've been saying for a while in regards to both TNG and DS9, the staff turnover rate has made it impossible for me to grow attached to these people because they're no more than names. While it hasn't exactly been a turnover at DS9, it also has been a long time since we had a solid grasp of who the major players on the station are.

The biggest flaw is that it felt that there wasn't a lot of forward momentum. There was a more tangible feeling of things and characters advancing than in Sacraments of Fire, but not as much as I was hoping for - Altek Dans remains a significant mystery in why he has been brought forward in time, nothing new has happened with the reveal of the falsehood other than Kai Pralon revealing it to Bajor, which didn't get a lot of focus as the story shifted to pay attention to the issue of the shapeshifter, and these both feel like what the next DS9 novel DRG will focus on, but for the time being, not a lot has been progressed with them, which, given their focus, make it feel almost like they're spinning their wheels rather than moving forward. There's at least a sense that there's some progression being made, but it's still feeling like the story is stuck in molasses, so I hope the next novel gives these real, solid focus and advancement.

Also, a personal request, PLEASE resolve the Vic and Morn subplots or move on from them. These both feel like they're a way for Quark and Nog to get focus while not being focused on at all, because they're both so removed and isolated from the rest of the characters. Either do something with them or move them on, but these subplots are dragging.

All in all, although I had a lot of criticism to offer, I did enjoy this book. I just recognize that I was hoping for more than I ended up getting, largely because of the time I've had to wait for the conclusion to this storyline. I think I'd really gotten my hopes set on an 'Ascendants anthology' of some kind, in the vein of Prophecy and Change or Distant Shores that would have come out back in 2013, for DS9's twentieth, or in 2018, for the twenty-fifth, rather than half a novel. For what it is, it's a good, solid story that I enjoyed reading. It's just given all the delays and bumps in the road, I'd built up something more than what I got, so that feeling of disappointment is still lingering.
 
Just finished Ascendance, (and Sacraments of Fire before it) and I loved them. My biggest complaint would be that I wanted more Sisko-as-Emissary, as I am not really a fan of The Sisko as run-of-the-mill starship captain, but that's not really a huge knock against the book. There's a big difference between a book not telling the story you wanted, and not telling its story well.

I would have more to say, but I read Enterpriserules post above mine and followed the link in his signature to Trek.fm and how did I not know all these podcasts existed!? Guess I know what is going to be eating my free time for the next while!

I just listened to 'Literary trek's discussion of Ascendance . This was a great discussion of the book. . I really wish Benjamin Sisko was still the Emissary too. I liked his interactions with the Wormhole aliens. It's one of the reasons he's one of my favorite Star Trek Captains. That's why he stood out from the different Star trek captains. I hope in future Ds9 books we'll see Ben Sisko have more of a major storyline in the future.That would deal with these questions. I really liked how this book filled in the blanks though.

Thank you both! I am glad you found the show and like it.

I am with you both in regards to Sisko. I think that he should be the Emissary always. Fearful Symmetry begins with an Orb where Sisko faces the other Siskos from the other universes and we learn,

“You never wondered why no one in that universe ever opened their Temple Gates, despite the presence of a Sisko in that continuum. Not even after you learned the truth about your origins…that Benjamin Sisko does not exist by accident, in any universe.”

“The Sisko of the Intendant’s dimension,” Ben realized. “He was supposed to have become their Emissary.”

“That’s the only reason any of us exist,” said still another counterpart, his uniform an odd amalgam of Starfleet and Militia design: Colonel Sisko of the Celestial Union-from the universe where Bajor was the nucleus of a vast planetary alliance that stretched from Cardassia to Earth-who had discovered the wormhole at the height of a savage and protracted war with the Tholians…a conflict that had claimed the lives of both his parents. “We’re each born onto a path we’re meant to walk,” the colonel continued, “but his life-his reality-made him the most reluctant of us, the one least open to accepting the role we’re all meant to fulfill.”

To me this always meant that Sisko was and always would be the Emissary.
 
That always did feel to me like a weird clash between destiny and will, yeah, the fact that Mirror Sisko had died.

Though there's something innately existentially unsettling to me about being created purely for one specific singular task too.

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Quick question. I read the book but cannot remember what happened to "future" Kira during the past events.
 
^ She's referred to in Taran'atar's internal monologue, but not seen. She either appears briefly at the very end of the book (in 2385) or we just learn that DS9 is receiving a message from her. (Don't remember exactly, I think Ro was just told she had an incoming message from Kira.)
 
I liked it, but certainly a number of things felt odd, including many of the issues to do with depth of characters and who was discussed in @DGCatAniSiri 's excellent post above. In a similar vein, the Sisko chapter in part one of the book ... it felt like it does not follow on from the Sisko of the post-Unity relaunch at all! I may be misremembering but Sisko in those texts, for example the Bajor novella and in Warpath, felt like he was on the ball about the upcoming crisis and his identity. But this chapter, as DGCat says, felt like rather than establishing a new direction it was stating something unfairly in media res.

But, responding to myself, I wonder did people ever feel the same about Full Circle and its treatment of pre-Destiny Voyager characters? I loved FC without having read the prior books, or indeed much liking the show, and Beyer's novels have really become some of my favourites each year. Apart from killing many ppl off, it did feel like KB was continuing a certain number of older threads well. Maybe not, I don't know the books of course. But with DRG and the Ds9 relaunch, I do feel like something attentive to many characters and also something that was going to happen that was implicitly epic fell by the wayside. We were building to a second Unity, and instead ... not. Jaunt to the mirror universe, then ... Taran'atar pops out the wormhole? Although a number of unity-esque events have happened around Bajor, of course, since 2377. I guess it just feels like a lot of characters are barely present, despite having been present up to The Soul Key.

(Of course interestingly, DRG and Beyer are good friends and discuss their projects from the words of their acknowledgements.)
 
But, responding to myself, I wonder did people ever feel the same about Full Circle and its treatment of pre-Destiny Voyager characters?

I know that I've definitely heard people express that criticism before, yeah, though not to an especially heavy degree.

(Of course interestingly, DRG and Beyer are good friends and discuss their projects from the words of their acknowledgements.)

I get the feeling that this all is true about basically the entire bench of Treklit authors, honestly.
 
^ She's referred to in Taran'atar's internal monologue, but not seen. She either appears briefly at the very end of the book (in 2385) or we just learn that DS9 is receiving a message from her. (Don't remember exactly, I think Ro was just told she had an incoming message from Kira.)
Thanks! I had completely forgotten she sends that message at the end.
 
I liked it, but certainly a number of things felt odd, including many of the issues to do with depth of characters and who was discussed in @DGCatAniSiri 's excellent post above. In a similar vein, the Sisko chapter in part one of the book ... it felt like it does not follow on from the Sisko of the post-Unity relaunch at all! I may be misremembering but Sisko in those texts, for example the Bajor novella and in Warpath, felt like he was on the ball about the upcoming crisis and his identity. But this chapter, as DGCat says, felt like rather than establishing a new direction it was stating something unfairly in media res.

No I think you are right. I also do not believe it fits with what we got, specifically what Fearful Symmetry set up about who Sisko is and why he even exists. This is my biggest gripe about the books, the way Sisko's character continues to feel out of place with all we got in the series and in the subsequent books. It truly feels like they don't know how to write for Sisko as a spiritual icon so they just stripped him of it, even though next to him being a family man, this became his defining characteristic.
 
Finished this yesterday and to me it was just an average book.

As others here have said, things weren't really moving forward here, as much as loose ends finally tied up. I liked to see Kira and Vaughn again in command of DS9 - just as much as I liked to see Ro in present time in command. But it's right, some character developments felt retconned, squeezed in just to put on paper what has been inferred in prior novels, such as Kira's turn to the clergy, Dax's being restless (and arrogant and malcontent... did I mention that she didn't really come across as particularly likeable when she doubted Kira at every turn because she just finished that advanced tactical training?)... TBH, I could have done without the whole Ascendant attack making up half of the novel. I found the pace extremely slow going, that attack didn't capture me at all - especially since the outcome was clear (namely, Bajor still existed years later). Much of the time spent on describing the Ascendants' PoV could have been spent on fleshing out those character-defining moments. The strenghts of this story partwere the one-on-one moments: Kira and the Ascendant (whose name is escaping me right now), Ro and Taran'atar etc - and not the battle descriptions.

And the situation about Altek Dans... I like him, I like his relationship with Ro (even though I don't like that she didn't tell Quark - seems a bit cowardly - or she needs a fall-back option if Altek doesn't work out... both not really shining options for her character). But I just don't get the investigation into his story. Why take everything so literally? If he really comes from the distant past, isn't it worth considering that the names of places have changed since then (especially if there had been a civil war going on and the population was split up)? And how is it possible that, especially when he read up on the station and Bajor's history, that he didn't come across Kira in the records? Wouldn't he have recognized her as his lover back in the past?!? Definitely will make for an interesting meeting when Kira comes back to DS9...

I liked the way new plotthreads were laid out, I also like the DS9 crew (except for Stinson) although they could all use some fleshing out. I even liked the little glimpse into Vic's programme (although I'm hoping he won't get a novel of his own, a glimpse is all I need, thank you) and the nod to The Light Fantastic. And now that some past weights have been shed, I hope that the story of DS9 will once again pick up speed again in the "present" time with Bajor's internal struggle, Sisko's mission into the Gamma Quadrant, and of course Kira's return and its ramifications on Odo's plans.
 
I finished this one a few days ago and I'd say that it's above average. I loved the way the Ascendant plot was relevant to both time periods. It was a fitting resolution to Taran'atar's arc

The one thing that bothered me was all the Vic Fontaine business. I love Vic and his appearances elsewhere in treklit have been fantastic. I've been hoping that he'll be restored and loved the way The Light Fantastic addressed it. But in Ascendance it felt half-baked. It was all set-up for something else. It seems out of place and really just broke the momentum of the other plot threads.
 
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I liked the way new plotthreads were laid out, I also like the DS9 crew (except for Stinson)

I don't think we're supposed to like him! I can see what DRG3 is going for - not a bad guy per se, but an ambitious arse that will end up causing trouble and coming a cropper for it.
 
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