Yeah, time limited like the last Star Trek movie. So you buy it thinking you get the digital copy to find out you don't get the digital copy.
DRM-free Star Trek ebooks?
- Thread starter Cicero
- Start date
Yeah, time limited like the last Star Trek movie. So you buy it thinking you get the digital copy to find out you don't get the digital copy.
This is not an apples to apples comparison to the eBook situation. First off, the movie(story) may be the same, but when people purchase a movie in Blu-Ray format, it's because people pay more to receive higher quality picture which is valuable. Your not paying to see the movie again........you're paying to see the enhanced picture of the movie. Secondly, AFAIK, there's nothing legally stopping me from ripping my VHS movie onto a Blu-Ray disc for my own personal use and watching it that way if I choose to do so, but I won't receive the upgraded quality in picture. Same with a nice HardBack vs. Paperback.
That's just silly......why would you manually converting your eBook be the moral line in the sand here vs. downloading the same eBook that someone else converted??Either you purchase the book and converting it to any other format is always wrong (whether you do it or download someone else's work) - or - once you bought a copy of the book, you are entitled to read that book in whatever way you want, short of stealing an actual book from a store or person.
My two cents: I could careless about the artificial format constraints that companies want you to adhere to in cases like this. I understand that if I want to upgrade my VHS copy of a movie to Blu-Ray, that I should pay for the more expensive technology because I'm getting an upgrade in the quality of my picture for the movie.
However, once I've purchased a hard copy of a book, whether I read the copy I bought or an electronic version regardless of whether I converted it or someone else did, there is no "upgrade" to reading the book. The story is not somehow made better because of where I read it........the only thing that's impacted is where and how I read what I purchased.
No matter how you justify it, you aren't entitled to download the eBook when you've bout a pBook. It just doesn't work that way. Now if you've bought the eBook and then find a DRM free eBook version, I see nothing wrong with downloading that.
When you buy a book, you pay for the content and the container be it hardcover, MMPB, eBook, etc. You are not entitled to yet a different container even though you've bought the content.
Really? You have got to be kidding me! Does that mean since I already own the PS3 version of LEGO Harry Potter I'm allowed to steal the PSP version just because I want to play away from home? This whole I got a physical copy so I can ILLEGALLY download a digital copy has got to be one of the biggest loads of crap I have ever heard in my life. Not matter how you justify it you're breaking the law. If you don't care enough to pay for another copy, then you probably don't really need to be getting another copy.
This is not an apples to apples comparison to the eBook situation. First off, the movie(story) may be the same, but when people purchase a movie in Blu-Ray format, it's because people pay more to receive higher quality picture which is valuable. Your not paying to see the movie again........you're paying to see the enhanced picture of the movie. Secondly, AFAIK, there's nothing legally stopping me from ripping my VHS movie onto a Blu-Ray disc for my own personal use and watching it that way if I choose to do so, but I won't receive the upgraded quality in picture. Same with a nice HardBack vs. Paperback.
That's just silly......why would you manually converting your eBook be the moral line in the sand here vs. downloading the same eBook that someone else converted??
My two cents: I could careless about the artificial format constraints that companies want you to adhere to in cases like this. I understand that if I want to upgrade my VHS copy of a movie to Blu-Ray, that I should pay for the more expensive technology because I'm getting an upgrade in the quality of my picture for the movie.
However, once I've purchased a hard copy of a book, whether I read the copy I bought or an electronic version regardless of whether I converted it or someone else did, there is no "upgrade" to reading the book. The story is not somehow made better because of where I read it........the only thing that's impacted is where and how I read what I purchased.
I see you've done a nice job of breaking out the always formidable "I'm right and your wrong" defense here and normally I'd acquiesce to such a persuasive argument as that, but, at the risk of incurring further verbal beat-down's I'd like to ask "why" am I not entitled to read a book I purchased in a different format? Why doesn't it "work that way"?
Is it simply a legal issue? Is there a moral problem? I understand what your stance on this issue is, I'm really more interested in what reasons you have to adhere to such a stance?
Really? Wouldn't that be participating in the illegal activity that allow people to steal the books without paying for them in any format?
At the risk of repeating myself, why? I clearly understand what your stance o the issue is. I'd like to know why, as that tends to be a bit more relevant in discussions such as these.
How many different threads can we have these arguments in? Buy a paperback copy if you want a paperback copy. Buy an ebook and read it on the devices you're allowed to if you buy an ebook. The end.
^ On the other hand, existing US rights rulings suggest that a customer has a right to print a physical copy (for personal use exclusively) of an ebook they've purchased, or to scan/retype and format as an ebook (for personal use exclusively) a physical book they've purchased.
As of 2006, Australia also protects these rights, but explicitly in the country's written code.
As of 2006, Australia also protects these rights, but explicitly in the country's written code.
I'm not aware of anyone arguing that it's not against the law to illegally download an eBook. I believe that much is obvious. The more interesting discussion is whether buying a pBook and then for whatever reason you decide you need an eBook version violates the spirit of the laws which are - one would hope - in place to protect the artists and ensure they get an equitable amount of return on their investment.
After all, if I buy a book, are you saying that I can't scan it in and convert it to digital myself? Is that legal? Is that moral? If that's ok, why is it not ok to find the same exact book that someone else converted? If I were to take the time to scan a copy of a book in, and my friend and I both bought a pBook, could I then give him a copy of the eBook I created legally?
It's easy to sit there and observe whether something's legal or not.........we all know what's legal. The real questions that should be asked here are is something "right"?
At the risk of repeating myself... I don't understand people getting up in arms about this thing like there's anything that can be done about it, or that these fine distinctions you are drawing have any applicable meaning to reality. It's like standing on a beach while a tsunami gathers itself before you, and someone's saying: "What about an umbrella? Maybe an umbrella will help when the tsunami hits?" and someone else is saying angrily: "Your umbrella propaganda is just ENABLING the tsunami! This tsunami is just so unfair, and what's more, it's illegal!" None of this alters the fact that the tsunami is coming and there is nothing that will stop it.
DRM is not going to stop ebooks from being instantly, freely downloadable the moment they are released. You are fooling yourself if you think there is some kind of DRM solution on the horizon to solve this problem. The force of law is not going to stop it either. They could assign the death penalty to downloaders tomorrow and the amount of people stealing ebooks would continue to increase. And yes, look, the moral argument works for now. It works on me. I don't want the creators of the books I consume to suddenly find it's not a financially viable proposition and stop publishing books, so I pay for the books I read. Of course I do, we all do.
We are the last people who are ever going to do this. Nobody born after 1995 will take even half a second to idly wonder if maybe they should pay for a book (or music, or films), they're just going to take them, for free. This is unfair, immoral, and illegal. And yet it's simply a fact, a thing that is going to inevitably happen, like getting hungry, or dying. There is absolutely no argument, or technology, or law that will change this fact, and before this decade is through we're all going to simply take it as read that as long as there is an internet, and ebook readers, people are going to download free copies of ebooks, and there's no magic price point above zero that is going to make them think twice about it. So arguing about what that price point might be, or musing that some DRM or law might 'solve the problem' is like wondering what experiments you'll run on your moonbase after all the astronauts have died from lack of oxygen. The question is NOT 'how do we stop people pirating?', the question is: 'What is going to happen now that people are not going to pay for books, music, or films anymore?'
I don't know the answer to that question. That it will be, and is, devastating for authors, film-makers and musicians is clear. But you will not be getting the pee out of the pool, and it's naive to talk about this as though it will be any other way.
I don't approve of piracy and I legally purchase all my music, games*, books and films. But what I as an individual does is utterly irrelevant to what the world as a collective will do- and they are going to file-share, and they are not going to stop.
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*Although games are an interesting case, which we've discussed before, in that Steam and XBoxLive both offer very attractive services that can't effectively be pirated, similar to the way you can't pirate apps on an unjailbroken iphone. This is basically where all the revenue that previously went into books and music is going to flow.
Oh, I understand that nothing is going to stop all of this but that doesn't make it any less aggravating. And I can't believe I have to explain this but the reason I disagree with ILLEGALLY downloading ebooks is because downloaders are taking something for free that the sellers and/or creators are not offering for free, and that is a little thing I like to call stealing, which is wrong unless you are in an absolute life or death situation, and as far as I know there aren't any situations where a life threatening situation is resolved by downloading an ebook. I don't care if you have paid for the paper book. When you buy a paper book you are paying for the ability to read that specific copy of the book, not any version of the story. And when you are paying for an ebook you are paying for the ability to access the ebook through an account you have set through whatever retailer you purchased the ebook through. If you have not payed a retailer then you do not have the right to access that ebook, it's really not that hard to understand. And it really amazes me that there are any people who do not get that.
Yes, I know all that, but what makes it fundamentally different? Why should an ebook not be resellable like a used paperback? (assuming it's the original file and not making copies)
You kind of answered your own question....you can make infinite copies of a file. Plus if the file is still DRM protected, it won't be able to be read on another device since the DRM is tied to YOUR CREDIT CARD and YOUR DEVICE ID.
If it's not, then there is nothing to stop you from making duplicate files and selling them.
Well I don't know about anyone else but I'm convinced. I'm clearly a dirty filthy law-breaking pirate so I'm no longer going to buy the paperback and then ILLEGALLY download the ebook.
I'm going to skip the buying the paperback bit now.
After all, if it makes me a law breaking pirate either way may aswell do it in the way that saves me some cash no?
...
Obviously that's not true, I've a great respect for all the authors on this board, but when people like JD just start spouting off rhetoric like that, then that's the response you'll get. Which is why it's dangerous. Because you're telling the people that actually still buy books (which let's face it, isn't that many) that they may as well not bother as far as you're concerned.
If you have a CD, are you entitled to have an MP3 of it on your iPod? Because that's the best analogy - same media, but on a separate portable device.
That's the oddest thing about this situation, if scanning and OCRing a book was easy and not time consuming, we wouldn't be having this debate at all. You know what would happen if we had a perfect DRM system and 100% accurate tracking and the death penality for all downloaders? People would be investing billions in automated page turning OCR systems. They already exist, the only reason they're not commonplace is that it's far simpler and easier to crack the DRM and get the file off the internet than it is to do it manually. So there isn't a market for them.
ST-One
Vice Admiral
I agree that selling the files again is a bit of a murky area... but why has the DRM to be as restrictive as it is at the moment?
It's idiotic that the publishers are making all the mistakes the music industry made all over again.
I can do with my music files what I want - except sell them or share them, which I'm perfectly okay with.
Why can't ebooks be treated in the same way, without me having to risk breaking some law or agreement or whatever?
This is the only reason I would expect a digital version of anything (books, music, films) to be cheaper, it has no resale value.
Well, I'll agree that there are some people who "don't get it". However, no one in this thread seems to "not get" that downloading eBooks they don't own is considered "illegal". The actual question that's been asked and ignored has to do with the conversion of a book you already own to an eBook format or vice versa.
Is it OK to print an eBook I own and read it even though I didn't pay to have it in that format?
Is it OK for me to type out or scan a pBook I own and read it that way?
Yeah, that doesn't bother since you payed for the copy of the book that you are changing. It's the not paying for something that the retailer and manufacturer are selling that bothers me. As long as you've payed for the copy of the book you're playing with, and don't sell it I could care less what is done with it. It doesn't affect me and it doesn't hurt anyone or take away money from anyone.
And TBH it would bother alot less if people did just download the books without making excuses about having bought the paperback version. If you're going to steal the book just steal, don't make excuses.
And TBH it would bother alot less if people did just download the books without making excuses about having bought the paperback version. If you're going to steal the book just steal, don't make excuses.
Alright, progress. I agree you should never steal books, nor enable others to do so. With that in mind...........
So, if it's OK for me to buy a pBook and convert it to an electronic format for my own personal use only, doesn't it follow that if my friend Bob and I both buy the same pBook and Bob converts it to an electronic format (cause it's his turn and all), then Bob and I are both OK to use the electronic version as well?
It's different because "original" is a meaningless concept when dealing with digital files. Cutting and pasting an ebook from one device to another isn't moving the original file, it's deleting your copy and making a second for the second device. After you give the second device with its copy to someone else, you can still restore your copy from a backup, get it out of the trash/ recycle bin, etc. And if you do that, the person who "bought" your "original" still has it. That can't happen with a physical object.
But in that case you're also effectively ruling out library lending and secondhand/charity sales for ebooks.
And once you do that, the original product has to become cheaper. as it's not just that they cost $5 each. It's that one costs $5, and the other costs $5 but you can get $2 of that back if you re-sell. So the value of the ebook is really only $3. You can't take away a huge part of the value of something and then charge the same price for it. The market won't stand for it.
And once you do that, the original product has to become cheaper. as it's not just that they cost $5 each. It's that one costs $5, and the other costs $5 but you can get $2 of that back if you re-sell. So the value of the ebook is really only $3. You can't take away a huge part of the value of something and then charge the same price for it. The market won't stand for it.
Ok, I'm more than willing to admit I don't know what I think of this situation. I think this wouldn't bother me, but the only problem is that once it's been turned into an efile you guys could just keep copying it and giving to people who could keep copying it and before you know it there's hundreds or thousands of people completely unconnected to you out there with it. That's the problem with doing things like that, you need a way to control or it gets out of hand. I have no problem with people sharing books and things like that, I don't want you to think I'm a total ass. It's just that when you get into digital versions of things that these issues get much more complex and TBH confusing.
And I just want to say that as much as this stuff pisses me off, I have no problem with any of you who are doing this personally, it's just this whole situation is aggravating. I realize now that it's the people who are uploading these things that are the problem. If they didn't upload these things then they wouldn't be there for others to take, and people who want the books wouldn't even need to consider if they did or didn't want to pay for the book.
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