Dragon Age - Discussion Thread

[Skywalker]

I do still generally consider DAO to be the superior game, but there are parts of DA2 that I did like better. Primarily the voiced protagonist. I think DAO went into production before ME1 did, but after ME1 came out with its fully voiced protagonist who actually had a personality, and not a blank cypher, DAO seemed like a huge step backward.

I did enjoy the group dynamic a bit more in DA2 than DAO, probably because they were all introduced early on, as mentioned earlier. The combat was a little too button mashy for me, and relied a bit too much on seemingly endless waves, but there was a sort of satisfaction to actually controlling the attacks instead of sitting and watching your character flail away.

Varric and Isabela were both a lot of fun. I really liked Aveline, too, and Fenris. I couldn't stand DA2's version of Anders, and while Merrill had some amusing moments her storyline and her incredibly frustrating views on spirits and demons annoyed me too much. Out of the two Hawke siblings, I find Carver more interesting--particularly if he becomes a Grey Warden.

One minor thing: though it's fun you can romance all but three of your party members, does anybody ever bother with Fenris or Anders?

I agree with you on Anders, but what's wrong with Fenris? If you're playing a mage, the rivalry romance with him is awesome.

 

[Reverend]

^I gather the rivalry romance with Anders is also pretty good. I haven't seen it, but I read somewhere that there's a scene where he's visibly fighting Justice for control.

As for Merrill, if you read between the lines of lore in the codex, she (and by extension the Dalish) are actually right about the nature of spirits and demons. They're all just individuals, the less powerful of which merely obsess over a single trait they see through the veil and none of them can be trusted. Her mistake was in thinking she could control such a powerful malevolent spirit.
She was blinded by her desire to restore the mirror for her people.

BTW, I think the reason the group dynamic works so well in DA2 is that it's constructed almost like a family, with Varric, Avaline, Isabella and Merrill at it's core. Indeed, the Avaline/Isabella interactions are easily the best in the game.

 

[SPCTRE]

Besides the romancing options (lots of great, funny dialogue bits and some surprisingly sweet, tender moments), I really, really enjoyed FemHawke's friendship with Aveline, especially as a more rogue-ish type of character. Great humour and tension/rivalry moments.

 

[Thestral]

Agreed.

Out of the two Hawke siblings, I find Carver more interesting--particularly if he becomes a Grey Warden.

Hmm, really? We'll have to see when he comes back for me but I couldn't stop rolling my eyes at him in Act 1. I don't know what Bethany's like if she becomes a Warden since I didn't bring Anders along, but Carver's got a lot of ground to make up for me.

I agree with you on Anders, but what's wrong with Fenris? If you're playing a mage, the rivalry romance with him is awesome.

^I gather the rivalry romance with Anders is also pretty good. I haven't seen it, but I read somewhere that there's a scene where he's visibly fighting Justice for control.

I hadn't considered that, hmm. Rivalry romances still seem weird to me. Will have to keep those in mind for the future then.

As for Merrill, if you read between the lines of lore in the codex, she (and by extension the Dalish) are actually right about the nature of spirits and demons. They're all just individuals, the less powerful of which merely obsess over a single trait they see through the veil and none of them can be trusted. Her mistake was in thinking she could control such a powerful malevolent spirit.
She was blinded by her desire to restore the mirror for her people.

Agreed. There's no doubt Merrill made a big mistake but her theory was sound enough. Though I still wouldn't trust a demon.

 

[Skywalker]

As for Merrill, if you read between the lines of lore in the codex, she (and by extension the Dalish) are actually right about the nature of spirits and demons. They're all just individuals, the less powerful of which merely obsess over a single trait they see through the veil and none of them can be trusted. Her mistake was in thinking she could control such a powerful malevolent spirit.
She was blinded by her desire to restore the mirror for her people.

Agreed. There's no doubt Merrill made a big mistake but her theory was sound enough. Though I still wouldn't trust a demon.

Right. That's what bothered me about her storyline. I do agree with the general theory behind Merrill's thought process, and based on the lore she might be at least partially right, but I think she was being incredibly naive and far too trusting in dealing with that spirit/demon. Even Marethari thought she was going too far.

 

[Reverend]

As for Merrill, if you read between the lines of lore in the codex, she (and by extension the Dalish) are actually right about the nature of spirits and demons. They're all just individuals, the less powerful of which merely obsess over a single trait they see through the veil and none of them can be trusted. Her mistake was in thinking she could control such a powerful malevolent spirit.
She was blinded by her desire to restore the mirror for her people.

Agreed. There's no doubt Merrill made a big mistake but her theory was sound enough. Though I still wouldn't trust a demon.

Right. That's what bothered me about her storyline. I do agree with the general theory behind Merrill's thought process, and based on the lore she might be at least partially right, but I think she was being incredibly naive and far too trusting in dealing with that spirit/demon. Even Marethari thought she was going too far.

There's actually a bit of banter between Anders and Merrill that triggers after that bit in act 2 when Justice freaks out and kills a mage/almost kills a mage. Basically she says that all spirits are dangerous, which she knew going in and is sorry he didn't.

The distinction between demon and spirit is one humans have imposed. However, there may be some positive feedback at work since spirits tend to copy what they see in mortal dreams. With that in mind it's entirely possible that "demons" only exist because people believe they do.

As for her dealings, I think her error wasn't in trusting it so much as overestimating her ability to handle it if it tried anything. Her motivations are a recurring motif with the Dalish in Dragon Age. Most notably Zathrian from DAO, Velanna in Awakenings and the Dalish clan encountered in 'The Masked Empire' novel. They're trying to recapture the past at the expense of the present for a future that will never come. Another interesting side to that is that they have a very skewed rose tinted view of what Elvhenan truly was. They don't even know for a fact what happened to it.

Indeed, out of all the games and books, Marethari seems to be the only one with her head screwed on straight. She care more about the Dalish's future than she does about recapturing the half forgotten past.

 

[{ Emilia }]

I'm currently trying to finally finish Dragon Age: Origins. I'm at the Landsmeet part.

Honestly, I find the game a drag. Objectively it's certainly a good game but there are so many things that bother me. In general I like both the open world style type of RPG (Skyrim) and the plot and character focused style (Mass Effect) when it's done well.

But Dragon Age does neither of those well. The characters aren't as much fun as those in Mass Effect (plus I'm tired of the fake old English. 'tis true, is it not?). And the world is ridiculously small. Everything is just corridors and you basically click from area to area only interrupted by incredibly dull random encounters on the road.

Which leads me to my next issue: the combat.
Oh my god, the combat. I've played many RPGs and MMOs and I'm just not a fan of the DA:O combat. It's too much of a pain to micro-manage the different characters and most encounters are the same anyway. A couple of ranged mobs, a bunch of white names and one yellow name.

It's. so. damn. repetitive. I just finished the Orzammar part of the story and ugh... bored of the fighting.

Also: Damn it, the locations hardly ever look epic. Orzammar was a cheap Moria ripoff. Skyrim did "epic" well, Bioware's areas have always been shit. Small and linear. The thing is: If you're just making small areas and not huge worlds... can't you at least put more effort into making the small areas look amazing?

The plot: Holy fantasy trope crap. Maybe I've just read too much fantasy or played too many fantasy games but the whole story and world seemed so un-original to me. The lore bores me to death.

That said: I still think it's a good (albeit flawed) game. I enjoy the companion banter. Bioware is good with these things. What they can't do is world and combat. Honestly, name a Bioware game with good and fluid combat mechanics. The Mass Effect games are good at that but obviously pretty straight-forward. Their true RPGs have always had worse combat mechanics and UI than 90% of the MMOs I've played. (Funny-enough single player RPGs often have sucky interfaces and mechanics. Skyrim's inventory? lulz. Probably because people won't bitch about them in forums for years to come.)

ETA: I didn't mention the ridiculously ugly and deformed-looking character models/faces because there are mods to fix those.

 

[Robert Maxwell]

I've been thinking about why DA:O has no staying power with me and I think you got pretty close to my issue, Emilia. It feels like a very competent assemblage of standard fantasy tropes. It's technically well-executed, for the most part. But the story just isn't engaging. The characters tend to be hit and miss. I want to like it, but I just don't. It's too much [fantasy trope] [fantasy trope] [fantasy trope] with no real invention or innovation. Thinking back, I had the same issue with the Neverwinter Nights games. They're vast--there is a lot you can do, and the loot and character abilities and such are very diverse--but it's all in service of stuff you've seen and done a million times before.

 

[{ Emilia }]

I've been thinking about why DA:O has no staying power with me and I think you got pretty close to my issue, Emilia. It feels like a very competent assemblage of standard fantasy tropes. It's technically well-executed, for the most part. But the story just isn't engaging. The characters tend to be hit and miss. I want to like it, but I just don't. It's too much [fantasy trope] [fantasy trope] [fantasy trope] with no real invention or innovation.

That pretty much describes my main gripe with the game. It's full of fantasy tropes that are tied together in a lazy fashion. The plot structure and storytelling are really lazy.
It's like the point-and-click adventures of old, like Monkey Island: "I can make this voodoo doll but first you need 3 ingredients." And then you spent the next hours solving puzzles that are completely unrelated to the main plot to get those ingredients.

It's just that here it's like:
"The crazy mutants are attacking and a treaty is binding all major powers to help you against them. Conveniently they're all busy with other stuff right now so you have to finish a series of unrelated quests first to make them help you."

It's an overly simplistic way of telling a story. You're basically just collecting ingredients, gaining faction points, whatever.

And that's all there is to it, really. No surprises, no character development, no complexity. Just: You're a grey warden now, get these groups to follow you by solving a bunch of unrelated nonsense and then there's a final battle. Done.

Some of the side quests and unrelated plot lines are good fun.
The main plot itself is really, really shallow and boring.

 

[Reverend]

^I gather the rivalry romance with Anders is also pretty good. I haven't seen it, but I read somewhere that there's a scene where he's visibly fighting Justice for control.

I hadn't considered that, hmm. Rivalry romances still seem weird to me. Will have to keep those in mind for the future then.

Well that was a shock. I just got the scene where Justice takes over Anders and I wasn't even in a romance with him. Looks like it's just a rivalry things, but I appear to have convinced him to not blow up the Chantry (yes, I know he will anyway.) Just for good measure I warned Cullen about it while Anders was in the party.

BTW, why exactly do the Templars let you wander around the city with two known apostates? I mean in act 1 both Anders & Merrill appear to be under the radar, but by act 3 it appears to be an open secret.

 

[SPCTRE]

And that's all there is to it, really. No surprises, no character development, no complexity. Just: You're a grey warden now, get these groups to follow you by solving a bunch of unrelated nonsense and then there's a final battle. Done.

Just to play devil's advocate (I love DA:O but I don't feel I can defend it from a story standpoint), you said you enjoyed Mass Effect. If we're staying reductive, Mass Effect 2 is largely you gathering your crew and - if you're doing the loyalty missions* - solving a bunch of unrelated nonsense and then there's a final battle. Done.

To reiterate, I'm not trying to defend DA:O, I even share a lot of your criticisms even though I love that game to death.

*(which everyone should because on the whole they're pretty good and influential in terms of the endgame)

 

[Reverend]

Most good stories are simple ones. It's why they endure. What hurts DAO for me isn't the story structure, it's the gameplay.

Even Mass Effect 1 was pretty straight forward. "Go to these places in random order, solve some barely related problems before we tell you to go get the bad guy. Then get the bad guy."

It's like the old saying about it not being about the destination, but the journey. If the characters are well written and the moment-to-moment stuff is enough to hold your interest then that's all that matters. A straight-forward over-arching quest just gives you a sense of purpose and direction.

Incidentally, if you think it's pure coincidence that your character happens to come into possession of the very treaties you'd need to unite the various factions against the blight...remember who it was that gave them to you....

 

[FPAlpha]

DA1 was an awesome game full of interesting characters, good action and a fantastic world to play in.

DA2 not so much.

However DA3 is one of the must have titles for my new PS4 (besides Destiny) and i'm looking forward to October. It looks gorgeous and from the reports i have read they seem to have included quite a few and good improvements.

 

[{ Emilia }]

Just to play devil's advocate (I love DA:O but I don't feel I can defend it from a story standpoint), you said you enjoyed Mass Effect. If we're staying reductive, Mass Effect 2 is largely you gathering your crew and - if you're doing the loyalty missions* - solving a bunch of unrelated nonsense and then there's a final battle. Done.

The difference being that Mass Effect was original and interesting in other ways (world, stories, characters) while Dragon Age: Origins relied on old tropes in almost every single aspect.

I'm playing Awakening now and for some reason I seem to be enjoying this more than the main game.
The only problem I have is that there's a disgusting sexism in one particular case. I wonder how that shit ever got past a producer.

So when you meet Sigrun for the first time you're in that scary dungeon and she just lost all her companions. She joins you to fight the Darkspawn... and 2 minutes later Oghren starts hitting on her.

Just to quote some of the "banter" between them:

Oghren: So... you come here often?
Sigrun: No, I've never been this close to the surface.
Oghren: Well, you're welcome to come with me anytime. A-ny-time.
Sigrun: I'm sorry, what?
Oghren: The name's Oghren, by the way... but the ladies pronounce it "Ohhh-ghren."

--

Sigrun: For all your faults, Oghren, you are a remarkable fighter.
Oghren: Really? (Laughs) Let's go 'round the corner so I can show you something else remarkable.
Sigrun: It was just a friendly compliment!
Oghren: You're friendly. I'm brazen and lustful. We're even!
Sigrun: (Sigh)

--
And the worst:

Oghren: What's it take to get that cold heart beating for Oghren?
Sigrun: Not this again.
Oghren: Come on, don't tell me you wouldn't like to feel hot blood pumping through those dead Legionnare veins.
Sigrun: Oghren. I don't want anything to do with you or the words "hot" and "pumping".
Oghren: I'll get through to you, lady. Oghren'll keep ramming up against that armor of yours.
Sigrun: Go away. Please. You're embarrassing.

Bolding mine.

So at this point I think it's just revolting. I literally felt physically sick whenever this shit started. How is this not sexual harassment? She isn't interested, he keeps hitting on her. The sense of entitlement is disgusting. Of course he deserves her attention, he's a man. The voice acting makes this even more painful to listen to. And he starts this right when she joins. It's not like they already knew each other and it's a game for them. These are the conversations the players gets to experience.

But you know what? Apparently a male writer just thinks this is "funny". Probably because he just can't imagine what a woman feels like when an entitled asshole keeps hitting on her in such a fashion.

So, he's entitled and disgusting but since men find this funny (again: Apparently they've just never "been there" on the other side) what happens in the end?
Of course, she falls for it. Cause how could she not, right? He's such an entitled asshole who keeps sexually harassing her for days and days until she finally thinks it's funny, too.

At least that's how male writers seem to think. A hundred No's and one Yes apparently mean "Yes".

Like I said it actually made me feel sick because it's so close to real life. An asshole feeling entitled to your attention keeps hitting on you even though you tell him to stop.

Why do they do it? Because stupid little video games like this one teach men that it works. That in the end you just have to act entitled enough and push and push and push until she gives in. She tells him to stop but "he'll get through to her" because he'll "keep ramming up against her". I mean, what the shit? Just keep harassing the woman, she'll give in at some point! Great lesson to learn, guys.

I love Bioware's games. But that writer can go fuck a donkey.

 

[SPCTRE]

^ To be fair, Oghren is constantly (including before the events in Awakening) portrayed as a drunken asshole who hasn't got his shit together. So sexual harassment is consistent with his character.

The real crime here IMO is that he is obviously intended by the writing staff as a lovable drunkard who sometimes "steps out of line" (which if I understand correctly is also part of your criticism).

 

[{ Emilia }]

The real crime here IMO is that he is obviously intended by the writing staff as a lovable drunkard who sometimes "steps out of line" (which if I understand correctly is also part of your criticism).

That's the thing. You're not supposed to hate him. It's supposed to be "funny". And in the end the girl is interested? Screw that. Only a man can write that.

Unrelated: Who are your favourite companions, guys? And for what reason?

 

[Reverend]

The real crime here IMO is that he is obviously intended by the writing staff as a lovable drunkard who sometimes "steps out of line" (which if I understand correctly is also part of your criticism).

That's the thing. You're not supposed to hate him. It's supposed to be "funny". And in the end the girl is interested? Screw that. Only a man can write that.

BZZZZZT! Wrong. Oghren's personal quest was written by Mary Kirby. The rest of Oghren's stuff was done by Sheryl Chee and Jay Turner. So out of the three writers responsible for Oghren, two of them were women.

In other news, a new cast video is up.

[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hYDSUBCr-U[/yt]

I love that his voice sounds nothing like what you'd expect from a character that looks like that, Qunari or no. Almost sounds like he's taking off Bane from DKR...only not rubbish.
Also, who knew FPJ was actually a good actor? He should have gotten into voice acting a long time ago.

 

[{ Emilia }]

Also, who knew FPJ was actually a good actor? He should have gotten into voice acting a long time ago.

I will never get past the fact that FPJ is James Vega in Mass Effect 3.
The voice is perfect but the image in my head...


ETA: Women also write sexist shit because how society shapes our consciousness.

 

[Reverend]

ETA: Women also write sexist shit because how society shapes our consciousness.

Or maybe they just think it's funny?

Aside from that, you can forgive Oghren a lot for things because at his core, he's a good, honest person. For all his crudity and drunkenness there isn't a malicious bone in his body Indeed a lot of his behaviours seems to me to be a reaction to how stuck up and deceitful most other higher class dwarves tend to be.
Given that most casteless dwarven females are willing to essentially sell themselves as concubines to powerful (read, dull, selfish, greedy and conniving back-stabbers) in order to advance their social standing, I can see how some...or at least two...would find his personality refreshingly direct.

...still, after a while the novelty appears to wear off, which is more than you can say for the smell.

 

[Reverend]

Minor news update: it's confirmed that the dishevelled looking bloke at the map table was indeed Cole from 'Asunder'.
Didn't picture him looking quite so albino, but it makes sense I suppose.