Don't worry about the original time-line, it's fine
- Thread starter Brutal Strudel
- Start date
Yeah, but the idea that the timeline hasn't been replaced flies in the face of every time travel story Trek has in its canon, going all the way back to "Tomorrow is Yesterday," reaching its apex early with "CotEoF" and and continuing through such TNG episodes as "Yesterday's Enterprise" and the DS9 two-parter where Sisko "becomes" Gabriel Bell ("I don't like your hat! And I don't like your attitude!") and, I'm sure, eps of VOY and ENT that I'm not fully familiar with. Time travel within a universe results in altered timeline within that universe. But Trek has canonically established parallel universes and time travel between dimensions. The part of me that likes to play with the silly SF concepts of Trek is just pointing out that the latter gives us the ultimate "Get out of FAIL free" card.
The Mirror Universe wouldn't be possible under standard trek guidelines, and Parallels was used as the travel framework for the movies. Time travel is one thing, parallel universes are another, but mixing the two is something else entirely. Parallels showed us hundreds of thousands out of an infinite number of possibilities, this movie being one of them.
Something tells me that if someone went back in time to prevent Zephram Cochrane from ambushing the Vulcan first contact team, it still wouldn't erase the beloved Mirror Universe.
And in sci-fi, there's ALWAYS a Get Out of Fail Free Card
Alternate universes, sonic screwdrivers, the Force, Mr. Garbage, etc...
And yes, I know it's all made-up. First @$$hole to point that out gets oomoks (sp.?) from Bruce Villanch and Rosie O'Donnell.
Revenge is a dish best served with a batch of stubble from Bruce Villanch (ick).
Could be worse. Could be stubble from Rosie O'Donnell.
The Mirror Universe wouldn't be possible under standard trek guidelines, and Parallels was used as the travel framework for the movies. Time travel is one thing, parallel universes are another, but mixing the two is something else entirely. Parallels showed us hundreds of thousands out of an infinite number of possibilities, this movie being one of them.
Something tells me that if someone went back in time to prevent Zephram Cochrane from ambushing the Vulcan first contact team, it still wouldn't erase the beloved Mirror Universe.
And in sci-fi, there's ALWAYS a Get Out of Fail Free Card
Indeed. And here's another one, which doesn't require digging through old episodes: red matter time travel is unlike any time travel we've seen before and thus it follows different rules regarding altered timelines. Of course, one way to explain that would be to invoke the time travel between parallels engine positted above.
The Mirror Universe wouldn't be possible under standard trek guidelines, and Parallels was used as the travel framework for the movies. Time travel is one thing, parallel universes are another, but mixing the two is something else entirely. Parallels showed us hundreds of thousands out of an infinite number of possibilities, this movie being one of them.
Something tells me that if someone went back in time to prevent Zephram Cochrane from ambushing the Vulcan first contact team, it still wouldn't erase the beloved Mirror Universe.
And in sci-fi, there's ALWAYS a Get Out of Fail Free Card
Indeed. And here's another one, which doesn't require digging through old episodes: red matter time travel is unlike any time travel we've seen before and thus it follows different rules regarding altered timelines. Of course, one way to explain that would be to invoke the time travel between parallels engine positted above.
It makes one wonder just what red matter is for any way, how else it could be used. But aside as being a WMD, it starts to fall into MacGuffin territory. Oh, how I love these made up substances...
Red matter is like the Omega particle, but neater! Woo!
That's because Spock and Nero did not travel into their own past. They instead travelled into the past of an alternate universe, much like the Defiant did when it slid out from "The Tholian Web" and into "In a Mirror Darkly." That explains all the implicit pre-existing discrepancies between the new continuity and the old--they were never one and the same to begin with.
Oh, it's quite possible that Spock Prime wasn't the Spock we knew, either. He could be from any of a near-infinitude of universes adjacent to the one we we're familiar with. Remmeber that parallel universe Worf was in for a bit where Data had blue eyes? He could very well be from that one. Or the one where Picard actually could make it to Worf's birthday party. Or the one where the Bajorans are antagonistic toward the Federation. Or the one...
()
Let me take some mushrooms and get back to you.
According to the comics, it's refined decalithium. Dilithium, trilithium, decalithium--apparently, physics in Star Trek proceeds on the assumption that the universe is bi-polar.
(Which would explain how "And The Children Shall Lead and "Code of Honor" could co-exist with "Balance of terror" and "Chain of Command.")
Let me take some mushrooms and get back to you.
We reach! Oh boy, do we reach! Remind me to tell you the story about how I almost drowned in Philadelphia's Love Fountain because I was tripping balls... never mind.
I wouldn't mind variations on episodes' underlying situations - for instance, Old Spock knows about the Mirror Universe. What, if anything, does he do about it? Warn the new Enterprise crew not to use the transporter when negotiating with the Halkans? Wouldn't that condemn the inhabitants of the Mirror Universe to eternal slavery under the iron fist of the Terran Empire?
So then wouldn't he try to re-create the transporter accident and make contact with his MU self as early as possible to get the ball rolling? And knowing the MU folks will eventually figure out how to do that trick in reverse, it really isn't a smart option just to wait. The best defense is a good offense.
Time travel and parallel universes are different but compatible. If there's one parallel universe - and we know there is, from the MU - then there have got to be more - why stop at one? So that means an infinite number of parallel universes to travel to. You can travel to them and arrive one millisecond after you left (standard travel) or one million years before or after you left (time travel).
Star Trek has "rules" involving time travel?
Something tells me that, based on everything Spock has seen and done and the questionable wisdom in meddling, he's going to let his younger self find his own way. Spock seems to feel that his place is helping the Vulcan civilization survive in this universe.
Again, I'm no ENT fan but IAMD showed us that time travel between universes is indeed possibe. (Indeed, I figure it would be easier, since--bear with me on this--it involves a straight line diagonally cutting across the parallels rather than an arc doubling back within the single universe.) (And that, friends, is why my MA is in English rather than math.)
Temis, you're right about Trek's time travel rules being loose-to-nonexistant but, with the possible exception of TVH, Trek has always made restoring a timeline polluted by time travel the point of all its time travel adventures.
Temis, you're right about Trek's time travel rules being loose-to-nonexistant but, with the possible exception of TVH, Trek has always made restoring a timeline polluted by time travel the point of all its time travel adventures.
Yeah, but it didn't make sense then either. Between the butterfly effect and the grandfather paradox, if you thought about old-style Trek time travel, it just wouldn't have worked unless you were handwaving all of the reality away for the sake of the narrative. That's a perfectly valid approach (see also Terry Pratchett's Night Watch), but it doesn't even try to maintain a pretense of being scientific. And "maintaining a pretense of being scientific" is exactly what sci-fi is all about.
it's quite possible that Spock Prime wasn't the Spock we knew, either. He could be from any of a near-infinitude of universes adjacent to the one we we're familiar with. Remmeber that parallel universe Worf was in for a bit where Data had blue eyes? He could very well be from that one. Or the one where Picard actually could make it to Worf's birthday party. Or the one where the Bajorans are antagonistic toward the Federation. Or the one...
(
What's the point of following characters over a long time if there are a bunch of existing possibilities? I think fiction, even SF, shouldn't go too far, especially since the hopeful premise of Star Trek is that it is the future we will grow into; multiple timelines increases the fiction at the expense of the message and closeness to us.
I really don't like the idea that going back in time creates a new alternative reality because I don't like the idea that in one timeline the crew never returned to their future in TVH and everybody on Earth died
. I can somewhat accept that this was an alternate reality since going to it involved a black hole.
Recreational speculation. When not indulged in to extremes, it's perfectly healthy and harms no one.
Depends. Are we talking about the stubble on her face or elsewhere?
In terms of the original timeline, I use this simple rule for myself. Did I enjoy it? Yes, then to hell with timelines, canon, and arcane trivia. Did I not enjoy it? Same rule applies. Why? Because I care more for an entertaining story with interesting characters than I do for the minutea.
There was a time when I cared about such things, canon and the Okuda timeline, but not any more. I want a Trek that captures, in part or in whole, the sense of fun and adventure that drew me to the series when I was a kid. This movie did, and that's all that matters to me.
All it is telling us. Is; What will happen if several certain importing persons in the star trek world had die? We know, one of them is Jim Kirk dad. He wasn't there to influence him into joining Starfleet. George Kirk probably had done other importing things in the original time line. But that is unknown.
It also possibility, that one of the crewmember that had die on the Kelvin. Is the one who had design the Constitution class. Also, the one who had improved the Constitution class to be built, had die on the Kelvin.
But who know? There might be in the works of a new star trek television series. That will be in the original time line. That will that place during the time before Jim Kirk join Starfleet. It will take place on board the Enterprise. There will be Captain Robert April, Commander George Kirk Sr., George Kirk Jr. James Kirk, George and James mom, which I forgotten her name. Note.. There might be in the works. But doesn't mean that it is.
It also possibility, that one of the crewmember that had die on the Kelvin. Is the one who had design the Constitution class. Also, the one who had improved the Constitution class to be built, had die on the Kelvin.
But who know? There might be in the works of a new star trek television series. That will be in the original time line. That will that place during the time before Jim Kirk join Starfleet. It will take place on board the Enterprise. There will be Captain Robert April, Commander George Kirk Sr., George Kirk Jr. James Kirk, George and James mom, which I forgotten her name. Note.. There might be in the works. But doesn't mean that it is.
When has canon never been any other than extreme for trek fans
I am just comfortable in watching this Universe because I know the previous incarnation is still and will always be STAR TREK no matter what cannon changes have happened. Its not like J.J and co did what some people want to do with Joss's Buffy and reboot everything with new named characters, now that would be a slap in the face for TREK.
That's because Spock and Nero did not travel into their own past. They instead travelled into the past of an alternate universe, much like the Defiant did when it slid out from "The Tholian Web" and into "In a Mirror Darkly." That explains all the implicit pre-existing discrepancies between the new continuity and the old--they were never one and the same to begin with.
Oh, it's quite possible that Spock Prime wasn't the Spock we knew, either. He could be from any of a near-infinitude of universes adjacent to the one we we're familiar with. Remmeber that parallel universe Worf was in for a bit where Data had blue eyes? He could very well be from that one. Or the one where Picard actually could make it to Worf's birthday party. Or the one where the Bajorans are antagonistic toward the Federation. Or the one...
(
I prefer to think that the original timeline got screwed with Star Trek:First Contact rather then Star Trek XI. Think about it... that's when the Borg was first introduced before they should of been, and that led to the events of Enterprise. Thus, with the altered events, Nero was able to go back into time in this timeline rather then the original TOS timeline. So I say First Contact is to blame more then anything.
