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Don't know what to think about the Burqa law in France.

You stated polygamy wasn't natural. I proved to you it is natural using real-world behavior of our closest cousins.

Now you're denying that and backpedaling to claim its all societal. Just admit you have a prejudice against polygamists. Easy enough really.

If it was simply societal, then surely you could have no objection to a free and equal society allowing it as it would be a choice.

I am not backpedaling. I claim it isn't natural because the condition under which polygamy is accepted as norm is not natural. It is not natural to treat the entire female population as secondary so that males can be dominant.

And I have already stated that I don't care about people who wish to live with multiple partners or sleep with their own blood relatives. I'm fine with however they choose to live. I just want to know why are they so keen on redefining marriage to include their choice of life style?

Seriously, I always thought of myself as a liberal, but obviously many here are way more liberal than I.

They want 'marriage' for the same reason as gays, they want their lives accepted as legitimate and they want to be able to function exactly as they truly are.

Keep in mind that polygamy is illegal. If you profess to be a polygamist, you go to prison. If you profess to be homosexual, you not only don't go to prison, but in several states you can get married.

Not fair to polygamists at all.

(Also, as a political fyi I'm independent though temporarily aligned with the left. I like my guns though. Yes, very much so.)

I think the direction this thread has taken is exactly why cultural relativism is bad when taken to extremes. The niqab and burkha should be banned and yes, society DOES get to tell you what to do. You don't like it? There's the fucking border, goodbye.

Bullshit. Society has no right to oppress a minority that is practicing its basic rights peacefully and politely.

This thread has simply shown that on the whole we respect a wide variety of rights of a wide variety of people.

Apparently you don't.
 
I think it is a disservice to same sex marriage supporters to associate their cause with polygamy and incest. I have several gay friends who are actively trying to get legislation passed to legalize same sex marriage in my state. They hate it when ditractors argue "if we allow this to be passed as law, next year we will be asked to legalize polygamy and incest." Most gay couples I know are much more loyal and dedicated to their one partner than hetrosexual couples.

Wait, then why were you asking all those questions about if we were okay with incest and making claims about your dog understanding marriage?
 
But seriously. Cultural relativist. Just because I let somebody do what they want to do, doesn't mean I respect their choice.:borg:
 
I think it is a disservice to same sex marriage supporters to associate their cause with polygamy and incest. I have several gay friends who are actively trying to get legislation passed to legalize same sex marriage in my state. They hate it when ditractors argue "if we allow this to be passed as law, next year we will be asked to legalize polygamy and incest." Most gay couples I know are much more loyal and dedicated to their one partner than hetrosexual couples.

Wait, then why were you asking all those questions about if we were okay with incest and making claims about your dog understanding marriage?

I suppose I have myself to blame for this. I brought up the idea that whether France banning Burqa could be drawn as a parallel to US banning polygamy.

My original thought was that Burqa is show of religious dedication and females being subservient to males. In the same way, most of the polygamist compounds in the US involve religious dedication and females being subservient to males.

I was expecting people to agree that polygamy is undesirable because the practice treats the female population as second class citizens and thus, should be banned. By extensions, perhaps Burqa should be banned because it treats women unfairly.

I was completely unprepared for people to reply "what's wrong with polygamy?" Thus, it got me on a line of argument about incest and bestiality, which was completely not what I had intended to discuss. I hope my summary clears up things a bit.
 
I was expecting people to agree that polygamy is undesirable because the practice treats the female population as second class citizens and thus, should be banned. By extensions, perhaps Burqa should be banned because it treats women unfairly.

How does polygamy treat women as second-class citizens anymore than regular old marriage does?

Mind you, I'm not talking about FLDS form of polygamy where it's more-or-less the religion's tenet to treat women in such a way. I'm talking about regular old Joe or Jane taking on multiple spousal partners. No one said it has to be one man with many wives it can be a woman with many husbands. It could be many men with man women, whatever combination. Which, in theory, I'm okay with I just think that would be more easily exploited for the tax and other benefits than straight or same-sex marriage is/can be.

But, Polygamy =/= Degradation of women.


I was completely unprepared for people to reply "what's wrong with polygamy?" Thus, it got me on a line of argument about incest and bestiality, which was completely not what I had intended to discuss. I hope my summary clears up things a bit.

So you argued against incest and bestiality because you didn't want to discuss it.

...

Okay.
 
I think when "you don't like it" it's just called the democratic process. If you had a nonconformist idea and Britain were to tell you "there's the border," would you intend to drown?

Depends on what the idea was and how committed I was to publicly stating it/abiding by it. If the UK instituted a ban on kipot and I was an orthodox Jew and it became clear I had no hope of overturning it, then yeah, I'd get the hell out of this nation of heathens.

Bullshit. Society has no right to oppress a minority that is practicing its basic rights peacefully and politely.

This thread has simply shown that on the whole we respect a wide variety of rights of a wide variety of people.

Apparently you don't.

Clearly they do and are - you might think it's wrong, but at the moment I don't see anyone coming to stop France from enforcing this law.

No, I draw a line somewhere and I don't apologise for it.
 
I think when "you don't like it" it's just called the democratic process. If you had a nonconformist idea and Britain were to tell you "there's the border," would you intend to drown?

Depends on what the idea was and how committed I was to publicly stating it/abiding by it. If the UK instituted a ban on kipot and I was an orthodox Jew and it became clear I had no hope of overturning it, then yeah, I'd get the hell out of this nation of heathens.

Bullshit. Society has no right to oppress a minority that is practicing its basic rights peacefully and politely.

This thread has simply shown that on the whole we respect a wide variety of rights of a wide variety of people.

Apparently you don't.

Clearly they do and are - you might think it's wrong, but at the moment I don't see anyone coming to stop France from enforcing this law.

No, I draw a line somewhere and I don't apologise for it.

Just because they are doing it doesn't mean they have any right to. Its simply mob rule.

And I would hope the legal system would strike it down and allow people their rights. Otherwise we deal with another suppression of rights. If we're very lucky, the internal outcry will cause it to be reversed.

Your line is prejudice. You should apologize for it.
 
How does polygamy treat women as second-class citizens anymore than regular old marriage does?

Mind you, I'm not talking about FLDS form of polygamy where it's more-or-less the religion's tenet to treat women in such a way. I'm talking about regular old Joe or Jane taking on multiple spousal partners. No one said it has to be one man with many wives it can be a woman with many husbands. It could be many men with man women, whatever combination. Which, in theory, I'm okay with I just think that would be more easily exploited for the tax and other benefits than straight or same-sex marriage is/can be.

But, Polygamy =/= Degradation of women.

Let's look at this realistically and practically. In history, when polygamy was widely practice, women were treated as objects. Today, most forms of polygamy involve either the multiple males or the multiple females treated as nothing more than play things or baby machines. This is the reality.

Men or women who fully and willingly enter a polygamous relationship, becoming the "one of many" side of the union, is so rare that it might as well be a hypothetical situation. Still, I have no problem with people wanting to live/sleep with multiple partners simultaneously. But I don't understand the desire to call such relationships as "marriage."

So you argued against incest and bestiality because you didn't want to discuss it.

...

Okay.

No, I argued FOR incest and bestiality because I wanted to know where people draw the line. And it seemed that more than a couple of people here are okay with incest, too. Which leads me to suspect that somebody here must also be okay with bestiality. Also, I brought the argument back to polygamy, so contrary to your statement, I'm more than willing to discuss it.
 
^^ The only possible way that "bestiality" would be okay would be if there were a non-Human species of equal intelligence and self-awareness who can enter into a contract as an equal. That is possible, but unproven.

I think the direction this thread has taken is exactly why cultural relativism is bad when taken to extremes. The niqab and burkha should be banned and yes, society DOES get to tell you what to do. You don't like it? There's the fucking border, goodbye.
No. Luckily, you're on the wrong side of History. The very reason America was founded was to oppose your brand of ideology.

I was expecting people to agree that polygamy is undesirable because the practice treats the female population as second class citizens and thus, should be banned. By extensions, perhaps Burqa should be banned because it treats women unfairly.
You do realize, of course, that the very reason marriage exists at all is because women were once considered property. So, by your logic, marriage itself should be illegal.
 
I hope my summary clears up things a bit.

I think the problem is that you're running up against ideally vs what tends to happen. To me, polygamy in theory is fine as long as they are all consenting adults entering into it of their own free will. In practice, this often doesn't happen.
 
. . . You are not seriously suggesting that because apes do it, so should we . . . Would you be okay with marrying an ape?
I couldn't fuck a gorilla!

manwithtwobrains.jpg
 
Let's look at this realistically and practically.

Okay. If polygamous relationships were to be legalized in America it we be done with no subjugation of women involved and with any combination of willing partner to par-take in it. Considering marriage itself was started as a way for people to "sell" their daughters into a relationship for some-sort-of gain and it's not what marriage is in modern society I'd assume that if polygamist relationships were legally allowed today they wouldn't be performed as a means to restrain or subjugate women.

Sure, some would capitalize on it in that manner but it wouldn't be the norm.
 
How does polygamy treat women as second-class citizens anymore than regular old marriage does?

Especially since a woman could marry several men as well. And several women.


It's fascinating how one argues against the burqa ban idea, but at the same time argues against polygamy. So it's perfectly okay to ban harems because they are not part of Western culture, but banning the burqa is wrong because it somehow seriously offends arabic/muslim culture?
 
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How does polygamy treat women as second-class citizens anymore than regular old marriage does?

Have you met many older married couples? I interact older married couples all of the time in an assisted living community. It is typically the man that cling onto the woman like a lifeline. It is typically the man who has come to rely on the woman so much that they can't even imagine how they would live without the woman. From our conversations, it seems that the man reach this mental state a few years into the marriage.

You are correct that in a marriage, one party is dominant while another party is submissive. However, the roles are often switch depending on the situation. Perhaps the wife is very good with money so she takes a dominant role in controlling finances. Perhaps the husband is very good at planning family vacations so he takes a dominant role in that. There isn't one permanently dominant side.

In a polygamy, there has to be one dominant person and many submissive people. In history, it is typically the women who play the submissive role. In this arrangement, the dominant/submissive roles never change sides as the male remains absolutely dominant.

I used the example of Hugh Hefner in the polygamy thread. Huge holds near-absolute power over the playboy bunnies. Do you really think those women would be willing to be in that relationship if they could attain their goals in life through other means?
 
I used the example of Hugh Hefner in the polygamy thread. Huge holds near-absolute power over the playboy bunnies. Do you really think those women would be willing to be in that relationship if they could attain their goals in life through other means?

LOL, stop patronizing all the women. You remind me of this:

funnypicturephotosignwo.jpg
 
How does polygamy treat women as second-class citizens anymore than regular old marriage does?

Have you met many older married couples? I interact older married couples all of the time in an assisted living community. It is typically the man that cling onto the woman like a lifeline. It is typically the man who has come to rely on the woman so much that they can't even imagine how they would live without the woman. From our conversations, it seems that the man reach this mental state a few years into the marriage.

You are correct that in a marriage, one party is dominant while another party is submissive. However, the roles are often switch depending on the situation. Perhaps the wife is very good with money so she takes a dominant role in controlling finances. Perhaps the husband is very good at planning family vacations so he takes a dominant role in that. There isn't one permanently dominant side.

In a polygamy, there has to be one dominant person and many submissive people. In history, it is typically the women who play the submissive role. In this arrangement, the dominant/submissive roles never change sides as the male remains absolutely dominant.

I used the example of Hugh Hefner in the polygamy thread. Huge holds near-absolute power over the playboy bunnies. Do you really think those women would be willing to be in that relationship if they could attain their goals in life through other means?

You assume much.

You assume a LOT, in fact.

Some marriages are equal, some marriages the female is the "dominant" force, some marriages the male is the dominant force.

There's no reason to believe that in a multi-partner marriage that an equality has to be found or a reliance on gender on the other for the relationship to hold and just because you get married doesn't mean you give up your dreams and wishes for the sake of your partner or that your dreams and wishes trumps your partner's dreams and wishes. Balance and equality can be found and successful marriages it often is found.

The kind of polygamy you keep talking about seems to be of the variety practiced by the Fundamentalist Church of Latter Day Saints.

Mormons (LDS/Church of Latter Day Saints) are often chided for believing in and practicing polygamy which makes about as much sense as making fun of a Christian for using a confessional. Mormons and FDLS both may be related in some ways but both practice their religion in very different ways and the FLDS church is the more extreme one and much of what they do is no longer accepted or practiced by the LDS group which is much more "modernized" take on the religion.

It's actually probably a lot more like comparing a Hasidic Jew to a modern-day Jew. Hasidic Jews follow the Torah and the umpteen commandments very closely and even have ideals we would consider to be somewhat antiquated when it comes to marriages and relationships with women. Modern-day Jews are far more easy going and in America most of them don't keep Kosher (something Hasidic Jews do strongly.)

It's part of FLDS's religion that women are "second class" citizens and a man has to have many wives in order get high salvation. Like it or hate it, it's their religion, it's only practiced by a few thousand so it's hardly a big thing.

The LDS church, however, is very Christian in their treatment of marriage and women, pretty much putting everyone on an even keel. (Although female members are not required to go on a mission as part of the doctrine.)

If multiple-partner marriages were to be allowed in America I don't think it'd be used to subjugate or restrain women (again, I remind you, that subjugating, restraining, and treating women as property was the entire origins of marriage.) But as you said today in modern times in some couples it's the woman who is the dominant partner.

And that last word is the key. "Partner." People in marriages these days are partners in a family unit. A polygamous marriage would be no different in modern times. As a matter of fact there's already people out there who live together as a multi-couple unit happily and healthily. (Though not officially married as a multi-partner grouping, it's just how the live and operate together.)

Stop confusing what some group of 10,000 people living in Utah are doing with what the average person would do if they were so inclined to marry multiple people.
 
Stop confusing what some group of 10,000 people living in Utah are doing with what the average person would do if they were so inclined to marry multiple people.

So when I said that in my experience, polygamous relationship wouldn't work, while citing examples, I'm assuming. But when you say that you believe it will work, saying "as soon as it becomes legal, people will get used to the idea" you are not assuming?

You might be right in that hypothetically, there are people who can make a polygamous union work. But look at the results of the polls and how most of the people, especially women, are responding. I have yet to see a known female poster say "hey, I would love to share a man with many other women."

And I purposefully left out the poll options of "Yeah, I'll be the lone wo(man) married to the multiple wo(men)." Because you can't say that you are FOR polygamous unions unless you don't mind being in the less desirable situation of being the multiple wo(men).

I used the example of Hugh Hefner in the polygamy thread. Huge holds near-absolute power over the playboy bunnies. Do you really think those women would be willing to be in that relationship if they could attain their goals in life through other means?

LOL, stop patronizing all the women. You remind me of this:

Okay, carefully walk me through how I am patronizing all women. I'm not saying they shouldn't sleep with Hugh. I'm basically asking the question: "Would women be willing to sleep with Hugh Hefner if he was just an average 70 yr old man?"

I'm pretty sure the answer if an emphatic HELL NO. There isn't anything wrong for the Playboy bunnies or anyone to want to sleep with a rich and powerful person because it is a means to achieve an end. They have to make a living just like the Hooters' girls. But it illustrates my point that there is ABSOLUTELY no way that Hugh Hefner treats the Playboy bunnies as his equal, nor does the Playboy bunnies expect the relationship to be an equal relationship.
 
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