dont get fluidic space
- Thread starter soornge
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I never put too much thought into this one, because I just "went with it" so to speak. Since the writers give us no real additional information about the nature of fluidic space, there's no way to say it's any more "real" or "fake" than subspace, hyperspace, or any other science-fictional space concept.
Remember, fluid doesn't necessarily mean water. Fluid is simply something capable of deforming or flowing. Even then, we don't know what aspect of their space deforms as such. Perhaps they live in a universe where the rules of nature/physics are more malleable (whatever THAT would look like), or even simply an area of subspace that seems to resist being scanned or probed. If the area of subspace or alternate universe appears to bend away from a probe (like poking your finger at a balloon to test what's inside--assuming it doesn't pop) some scientist could easily decide to coin it fluidic space. This, however, is probably putting way too much thought into it.
Remember, fluid doesn't necessarily mean water. Fluid is simply something capable of deforming or flowing. Even then, we don't know what aspect of their space deforms as such. Perhaps they live in a universe where the rules of nature/physics are more malleable (whatever THAT would look like), or even simply an area of subspace that seems to resist being scanned or probed. If the area of subspace or alternate universe appears to bend away from a probe (like poking your finger at a balloon to test what's inside--assuming it doesn't pop) some scientist could easily decide to coin it fluidic space. This, however, is probably putting way too much thought into it.
She wasn't able to identify manure by her nose either. I guess all the odor causing bacteria were long dead thus it just looked like mud. but didn't janeway take a big whiff? haha, I don't remember.
Well then I have 30 more good leak free years
From the way it was portrayed it sounded like Trek's version of the old Aether concept -
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aether_(classical_element)
The thing that bothered me about the idea was pressure. In a typical ocean on Earth a vessel can dive only so far before it reaches what submariners refer to as "crush depth." The more water over you, the greater the pressure. If, as was previously stated in the thread, the episode identified the substance as an organic fluid this same concept should apply to fluidic space. Since we already know that starships (and their shields) have a limit to the punishment they can take when it comes to external pressure (like Apollo's green space hand, or going too deep into a gas giant's atmosphere) Voyager should have been crushed as soon as it arrived. Even if the fluid was lighter than water it should still exert pressure on submerged objects.
But who knows what the laws of physics in another universe are?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aether_(classical_element)
The thing that bothered me about the idea was pressure. In a typical ocean on Earth a vessel can dive only so far before it reaches what submariners refer to as "crush depth." The more water over you, the greater the pressure. If, as was previously stated in the thread, the episode identified the substance as an organic fluid this same concept should apply to fluidic space. Since we already know that starships (and their shields) have a limit to the punishment they can take when it comes to external pressure (like Apollo's green space hand, or going too deep into a gas giant's atmosphere) Voyager should have been crushed as soon as it arrived. Even if the fluid was lighter than water it should still exert pressure on submerged objects.
But who knows what the laws of physics in another universe are?
Yes, it does seem like Aether is what Braga was referencing, but still ... it doesn't work. I applaud the attempt at trying to be different, because it certainly is that. But it's an empty purse ...
That's only because of gravity.
It doesn't make much sense, but I thought fluidic space was really cool. I know at one point they referred to it as another universe (they reach ours via singularities - black holes by another name), and other times they've spoken of fluidic space and ours having a border.
It could be anything. A weird super-dense nebula, the insides of a gigantic space monster, another universe where the laws of physics are totally different (in the animated Trek series, they went to other universes where magic was real and where time flowed backwards and black stars shone in a white sky)
I actually like that they didn't explain it to the nth degree, as Voyager loved to do so much.
It could be anything. A weird super-dense nebula, the insides of a gigantic space monster, another universe where the laws of physics are totally different (in the animated Trek series, they went to other universes where magic was real and where time flowed backwards and black stars shone in a white sky)
I actually like that they didn't explain it to the nth degree, as Voyager loved to do so much.
Such a huge volume of liquid matter matter should seek hydrostatic equilibrium or suffer some kind of collapse under that much weight. We're supposedly talking about a whole universe filled with liquid. By contrast, the moon Mimas is a tiny amount of water compared to a fluidic universe but that little ball of water exerts a gravitational pull. A universe sized mass of liquid should exert an enormous gravitational pull. When a cloud of molecular hydrogen gets massive enough it can collapse down to form a star, the postulated fluid mass here would theoretically be much larger than any molecular cloud. A massive buildup of fluid like that should result in some sort of collapse as well. After all, anything that has mass (7 noted that Voyager created a shockwave when they arrived, so the fluid must have some mass) will have gravity as well.
Again, the laws of physics there could be different and that would be an out for the script writer.
Even ignoring that, just think of the gravity.
It's where all the spooge on the holodeck goes.
As a story element, Fluidic Space would've been much improved had it "spilled" over, when Species 8472 used their subspace this and thats to tamper with our universe. And, in consequence, objects in the vicinity like whole planets, or even stars, might be affected by it, or - perhaps - even destroyed. As it was, I didn't see much use in their even bringing it up ...
I like this idea, plus it would have sent a clear ecological message.
True, but I forgot to mention that when you consider that at the center of a body, be it planet or star, you don't actually experience any gravitational pull as there's an equal amount of mass all around you - up, down, left, right, in front, and behind - so you would essentially be weightless when you're in the same location as the center of mass.
Maybe in fluidic space, every location is essentially the center of mass, like how in normal space, every location is the center of the Universe. Of course pressuse density is another matter entirely, but it seemed to be negligible other than sending a compression wave.
Did a very quick back-of-envelope calculation. Assuming I didn't make any errors, a black hole with a mean density of 1 (water) would have a Schwarzschild radius of about 0.0013 light years. So if the laws of physics aren't drastically different there, fluidic space would have to be tiny in interstellar terms or it would have to be just that
I never got the idea that fluidic space was water or even a material liquid. Fluidic in some way describes the dynamics of the spacetime of this dimension or region of the universe.
I don't think fluidic space can be uniform--if it were, where and how would 8472 build ships? And the fact that they have weapons implies enemies--either they are at war with themselves, which I never got any hint of, or they have encountered other species who are not friendly. Of course these other races don't have to be in fluidic space themselves, but I would think it likely. Even more importantly, how would there be any selection pressure for evolution of any kind if it were simply a space that is all the same--it'd be the fluidic space equivalent of earth's oceans 2-3 billion years ago: mats of blue-green algae and bacterial/protist agglomerations (stromatolites) with nothing to graze and hence exert any pressure to change (analogy having nothing to do with water or liquid), but forever.
And simply looking at 8472's basically bipedal locomotion and the gravity in their own ships tells us they are not spawned in some gravity-less matrix.
I do think the writers had in mind the nature of the space being so weird that it influenced the hyperdense 8472 cellular structure, that somehow this matrix was a general selection pressure for such a structure, and that it is in some way a matrix containing whatever energy that energy processors equivalent to plants fix for "animals." The fact that they even have cells identifiable as such to the Doctor suggests that they come of an evolution that began with free-living, single cells, given what we know about our own evolution. It is extremely unlikely that 8472 are the only life in fluidic space.
I do have a hard time accepting planets where there are no stars, so I would suggest that some regions of fluidic space are like fishbowls within it, denser volumes with gravity that life can evolve within, fixing and deriving energy from the space itself and not stars. Such a pervasive energy source would, again, be a retardant to evolution--plants are the purest form of parasites, as they live within their food source, and in fluidic space the food source would be far more pervasive and omnipresent than sunlight. Doesn't mean nothing would ever kickstart some evolutionary changes, just that it would be very slow going for a long time.
I don't think fluidic space can be uniform--if it were, where and how would 8472 build ships? And the fact that they have weapons implies enemies--either they are at war with themselves, which I never got any hint of, or they have encountered other species who are not friendly. Of course these other races don't have to be in fluidic space themselves, but I would think it likely. Even more importantly, how would there be any selection pressure for evolution of any kind if it were simply a space that is all the same--it'd be the fluidic space equivalent of earth's oceans 2-3 billion years ago: mats of blue-green algae and bacterial/protist agglomerations (stromatolites) with nothing to graze and hence exert any pressure to change (analogy having nothing to do with water or liquid), but forever.
And simply looking at 8472's basically bipedal locomotion and the gravity in their own ships tells us they are not spawned in some gravity-less matrix.
I do think the writers had in mind the nature of the space being so weird that it influenced the hyperdense 8472 cellular structure, that somehow this matrix was a general selection pressure for such a structure, and that it is in some way a matrix containing whatever energy that energy processors equivalent to plants fix for "animals." The fact that they even have cells identifiable as such to the Doctor suggests that they come of an evolution that began with free-living, single cells, given what we know about our own evolution. It is extremely unlikely that 8472 are the only life in fluidic space.
I do have a hard time accepting planets where there are no stars, so I would suggest that some regions of fluidic space are like fishbowls within it, denser volumes with gravity that life can evolve within, fixing and deriving energy from the space itself and not stars. Such a pervasive energy source would, again, be a retardant to evolution--plants are the purest form of parasites, as they live within their food source, and in fluidic space the food source would be far more pervasive and omnipresent than sunlight. Doesn't mean nothing would ever kickstart some evolutionary changes, just that it would be very slow going for a long time.
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